.223 for everything, the gunnutz version

[Joel]

Things I don’t use when using a 22 centerfire - no contemporary mono’s anymore, especially not in higher weights (which is typically the route guys take “to hedge their bets”).

Thats why I don't hunt the 223 right now. If i were a lead bullet shooter, I'd have no issue. The bullets you recommend work.

If it was gonna be "223 and monos" I'd use 50-53 gr Barnes and limit the range. They open fast and make bigger cavities than the heavier ones.

If there is one bullet that you didn't specifically name that I would try, its the Speer 75gr Gold Dot.

 

[KodiakHntr]

Thats why I don't hunt the 223 right now. If i were a lead bullet shooter, I'd have no issue. The bullets you recommend work.

If it was gonna be "223 and monos" I'd use 50-53 gr Barnes and limit the range. They open fast and make bigger cavities than the heavier ones.

If there is one bullet that you didn't specifically name that I would try, its the Speer 75gr Gold Dot.

Never used the Gold Dot. Can’t speak to that one.
There are quite a few others that work, but a guy has to be pretty specific in his choices.

 

[Joel]

Never used the Gold Dot. Can’t speak to that one.
There are quite a few others that work, but a guy has to be pretty specific in his choices.

Wouldn't wanna deviate from any of the proven ones you've mentioned there otherwise. The ELDs particularly.

 

[southernman]

https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.nz/f12/223-deer-64884/

Hope this link works, hundreds of pages of getting it done with a .223.
I’ve shot close to a thousand red/ Fallow deer, and multiples more goats, etc. with a .222 when culling, mostly with a 50-55g Norma or Sako soft point, there are more and better bullet choices now, than what we had in the late 80’s.
I had a great run with the .222, never lost a deer, second shot if they didn’t go straight down, but as a mate pointed out after I bought a .270, “I haven’t seen you belly crawling, threw the scrub since you got a .270”
Can you kill deer with a .223 absolutely.
Should you ?, depends on your ability, the size of the game, the right choice of bullet, and a multitude of other choices.
The .22 centre fires are easy to shoot well, I consider them a precision tool, rather than a generalist’s. take your time, get in close, pick your shot, and let ‘‘em walk if need be,

Back when there were large numbers of Deer cullers in NZ, NZ Forest service, issued ammo,
.270,308. 2 rounds per deer.
.243. 3 rounds per deer.
.222 5 rounds, per deer.
After witch you had to pay for ammo, says it all really,
.222 was used for lots of other shooting, rabbits, wabblies, birds, Hares, goats, that were unpractical with larger rifles.

 

[DGY]

How are those bullets mention here are doing when they hit bones, I’m thinking large moose ribs as the smallest, what about shoulder blade on a moose?
I know from my limited experience, that an 30 cal ELD-X doesn’t do too good, does do a lot of damages and will put the moose down but lots of meat lost for sure.
Same with super magnum and cup and core bullets, just a fruckin mess and lots of wasted meat!
Just curious!

 

[mikeyb]

I've been following that 'slide thread for a while now. The results that are being posted can't be denied, I mean they are quite consistent from dozens (or maybe even hundreds by now) of users over a not insignificant period of time. If someone told me they were going to try to emulate those results, I'd wish them the best of luck and be interested to hear of their experience.

My own experience indicates that more is more, or at least that I like more frontal area, more mass, and more (or the same) velocity. I believe for a long time 6mm was the minimum in Manitoba, now the wording has changed to "A centrefire rifle of .23 calibre or less is not recommended" so it's entirely possible to put the theory to test myself, but if I can shoot something with a .223 I can also shoot with with my .243. And if it's a matter of bullet type, I can always rebarrel my .243 with a faster twist to use ELD-Ms and Matchkings etc (the Matchkings were popular on Accurate Reloading for a while as a big game hammer as well, so this is nothing new).

The people posting in that thread (and Rokslide's more specialty sub-forums in general) aren't really new hunters just trying to figure things out and needing the best tool for the job when the chips are stacked against them, so they aren't really representative of the general hunting public. I can appreciate that, but sometimes new hunters/shooters pop in to check out the 1000 page thread to what's what (or are referred from somewhere else) and I'm not convinced a Tikka in .223 shooting 77gr ELD-Ms is the best option for them to start with.

I'm all about their scope bashing though, that's entertaining AF when they test scopes to failure and people cry in the results threads

 

[Lakkenbak]

How are those bullets mention here are doing when they hit bones, I’m thinking large moose ribs as the smallest, what about shoulder blade on a moose?
I know from my limited experience, that an 30 cal ELD-X doesn’t do too good, does do a lot of damages and will put the moose down but lots of meat lost for sure.
Same with super magnum and cup and core bullets, just a fruckin mess and lots of wasted meat!
Just curious!

Eldx's are very soft. I used some last year, didn't hit bone and my exit holes were fist sized. Wouldn't be my bullet of choice for a possible shoulder shot on a moose.

 

[jparent]

I have put a truckload of eastern whitetail in the dirt with my little Ruger 556 loaded with 75 grain BTHP. Only had to track one any distance, and that was from a bad hit, due to a buggered scope mount i discovered too late. In the same circumstances, wouldn't have made a difference had i been shooting a 308. Out to 300 yards, those little bullets wreck the lungs and end up just under the hide. I would not advise most people to shoot that far, or even 1/2 that even with a heavier gun, without practice, plenty of hunters are not shooters (that is another topic all together).

Recently got my hands on some 75 grain federal fusion, If i can load them to shoot accurately enough, I might try them this year.

I'll take a 308 for anything larger than black bear though. Just for peace of mind.

 

[HeadDamage]

If the only shot I have is a poor angle on a moose I'll stick to my 338win. I know it will make it through based on experience, I don't think a 223 will do the same. The first moose I shot took a 6.5x55 140gr Nosler Partition in the neck and didn't slow down. After some more shooting it was down but on cutting into the moose I found the mushroomed 140gr lodged against a vertebra, I don't think a 223 would have done the job.

 

[KodiakHntr]

If the only shot I have is a poor angle on a moose I'll stick to my 338win. I know it will make it through based on experience, I don't think a 223 will do the same. The first moose I shot took a 6.5x55 140gr Nosler Partition in the neck and didn't slow down. After some more shooting it was down but on cutting into the moose I found the mushroomed 140gr lodged against a vertebra, I don't think a 223 would have done the job.

Last years bull, 352 yards. 14” of vertebrae demolished lengthwise.

The year before, the humerus was smashed in half and the bullet made it to the last rib on the opposite side. The year before that, both shoulders crushed and the bullet was caught under the hide.

Those are just moose.

 

[HeadDamage]

That seems to be some great performance. I am interested in maybe using 223 for deer if Alberta does allow it though I don't think that move has been made yet but I'm thinking more along the line of smaller deer for meat rather than big bucks. I have found that 338win isn't the greatest deer round due to lack of expansion with 250gr bullets and too much expansion (more like explosion) with 200gr ballistic tips. For moose I love it

I've used 200gr Nosler Balistic tips on two mule deer with terrible results. Deer died on the spot but massive meat loss and no exit, powdered bullet spread throughout the wound. 250gr SGK bullets tend to result in my shooting more than once due to the bullets zipping through the deer without expanding. Once shot a nice mule deer buck at about 200m, thing took off and I took out it's front right leg at about 400m (not aiming for the leg) and it dropped. When I got to the buck it was dead from the first shot that had gone through the vitals but done minimal damage due to lack of expansion of the 250gr SGK. I've shoot several deer with this load and they always run before dropping.

My moose load is my (now) small hoard of 230gr Winchester Failsafe rounds, fantastic performance on moose regardless of the angle. Biggest moose I've shoot was a 54" bull, 230gr entered the right hip and exited the left shoulder. Bull dropped in his tracks. They also have worked just as well with regular side shots, one shot, one moose and no tracking.

My current favourite deer load is Federal blue box 7.62x39 shot from either my Ruger M77 or Ranch Rifle, seems to drop deer in their tracks with minimal meat loss. Don't think I've used it much past 100m. Years ago I used to hunt with a 6.5x55 and that was a great deer dropper to.

 

[geologist]

That seems to be some great performance. I am interested in maybe using 223 for deer if Alberta does allow it though I don't think that move has been made yet but I'm thinking more along the line of smaller deer for meat rather than big bucks. I have found that 338win isn't the greatest deer round due to lack of expansion with 250gr bullets and too much expansion (more like explosion) with 200gr ballistic tips. For moose I love it

I've used 200gr Nosler Balistic tips on two mule deer with terrible results. Deer died on the spot but massive meat loss and no exit, powdered bullet spread throughout the wound. 250gr SGK bullets tend to result in my shooting more than once due to the bullets zipping through the deer without expanding. Once shot a nice mule deer buck at about 200m, thing took off and I took out it's front right leg at about 400m (not aiming for the leg) and it dropped. When I got to the buck it was dead from the first shot that had gone through the vitals but done minimal damage due to lack of expansion of the 250gr SGK. I've shoot several deer with this load and they always run before dropping.

My moose load is my (now) small hoard of 230gr Winchester Failsafe rounds, fantastic performance on moose regardless of the angle. Biggest moose I've shoot was a 54" bull, 230gr entered the right hip and exited the left shoulder. Bull dropped in his tracks. They also have worked just as well with regular side shots, one shot, one moose and no tracking.

My current favourite deer load is Federal blue box 7.62x39 shot from either my Ruger M77 or Ranch Rifle, seems to drop deer in their tracks with minimal meat loss. Don't think I've used it much past 100m. Years ago I used to hunt with a 6.5x55 and that was a great deer dropper to.

Failsafes got a bad rap from people using them on smaller big game like whitetails and getting no expansion just pass throughs.

 

[hoytcanon]

Qualifier; I did not read through the thread.

My understanding from the OP is to substantiate the legitimacy of the .223 on EVERYTHING. What follows is my opinion only, I will not defend it, and I will not argue these points...

I do not understand the desire by some to push the margins to the slimmest limit by minimizing the potential effectiveness on game, by choosing a needlessly light cartirdge. The motivation cannot be financial, they could just as easily shoot a .243 or .308, for hunting the cost of ammunition is not prohibitive, and surely NOBODY is arguing that a .223 is just as effective as a .243 or .308? I can only think that the motivation stems from one of two places, namely;

1. Fear of recoil and and an unwillingness to admit it.
2. Hubris born from too much World of Warcraft, et al.

We should all be striving to increase the margins when shooting at game, at least to a level where we are next to 100% certain of the outcome before the trigger squeeze. Not, "squeeze... fingers crossed... oh, damn..."

 

[ghughes]

Silly, silly, silly. Don't try to pound nails with a screw driver. I've ruined more meat with velocity for energy than I like to think about (25-06 and 7mm mag). If I were hunting moose on hydro lines and clear cuts I'd still have the 7mm but I don't and I don't. I'll take mass over velocity within reason, and I'll choose my gun based on the stand I'm hunting on. Will it do it? I don't think so reliably. Is it worth trying absolutely not. For deer up to 100 yds the 3030 is just about ideal. Since that includes 95% of my deer harvest and I can't use a peep sight after sunset I've got a 308win and for my bow stands a 7.62x39.

 

[KodiakHntr]

. The motivation cannot be financial, they could just as easily shoot a .243 or .308, for hunting the cost of ammunition is not prohibitive, and surely NOBODY is arguing that a .223 is just as effective as a .243 or .308? I

There is zero chance that you could tell the difference between the wound channel generated by a fast twist 22 centerfire with a heavy for caliber bullet and anything else looking inside a dead animal.

 

[olefrt63]

Over on R0kslide there's an evidence based thread on using the .223 with a 77gr tmk or or a few others for everything in north America out to 400 yards.

The main points of the thread are:
Bullet placement kills.

Bullet construction matters a LOT.

Headstamps don't matter.

You've been lied to by bullet manufacturers and magazine writers.

Let's hear from you guys

Edit: I know a few of you are on there too, back me up please

I guess that depends on how many days you have to track a wounded animal. Even on whitetail at 125 yrds I didn't get a pass through. Let alone anything larger like Elk, Moose etc

Any ethical hunter shouldn't even consider that as a viable option.

 

[Silverado]

If a .223 is all I had, I'm sure I wouldn't try to hunt "everything in NA"... but I'd carefully use one on deer and elk, if I had to. I don't think it would be the cartridge as the limiting factor, it would be discipline. Stay hungry my friends!

 

[Hand Skills]

There is zero chance that you could tell the difference between the wound channel generated by a fast twist 22 centerfire with a heavy for caliber bullet and anything else looking inside a dead animal.

I think the real point here is that

All Bullets are not created 'equal'

A .223 with the right bullet can absolutely outperform a .308 with the wrong bullet

Most will never understand that terminal performance has very little to do with headstamp.


Bullet construction

Impact velocity

Target resistance

Twist rate

These are the factors at play when the metal hits the meat.

Headstamp exists to ensure a safe launch.

 

[elKrusto]

I am enjoying this thread but I just don't think you will ever convince me that what you are doing is smart. It just seems that you guys are either recoil intolerant or you are just stretching the limits to try to prove something.
It can't be for money savings as everything hunting related is so expensive, an extra 10 cents a cartridge savings over say a 243 can't make or break a guy?
I am curious though if you would recommend any factory 223 loads or is this just a reloaders only thing?
I would give some credit to bullet frontal displacement (bullet diameter).
Based on your criteria above, a 30-30 with powershok bullets shouldn't work well, due to crappy bullet construction, low impact velocity, slow twist rate.....44 magnum shouldn't be that effective neither....yet both drop deer in their tracks.

 

[Denver Steve]

To make it's simple. Yes, 223 can be used for anything. Is it the best choice? Definitely not with certain game. Can all game be taken ethically and cleanly with it. Absolutely, with the proper shot placement, right distance, and the proper bullet.

Just leave the varmint rounds for varmints, and the match bullets for steel and paper. At typical hunting ranges, a bullet specifically made for hunting is your best option.

Yes other bullets work, and can work well. But for general purpose, for bigger game, pick a dedicated hunting round that your rifle shoots very well, or roll your own. Use it for bigger game, if you have to. At I would say under two hundred yards. Probably closer to a hundred. But if you know your rifle, your rounds, the right circumstances, then go longer if you want. But those little pills effectiveness on game diminish quickly, compared to a larger bore, with again, proper bullet choices.