Is it me or does my gun not like my reloads?

[bearhunter]

One thing you need to check, concerning how you lubricate your cases, before resizing, is lube getting inside the cases?

The inside of the necks need to be lubed, but you don't want lube inside the case.

Another thing that will help tighten tolerances is to "partially neck size."

Some folks think neck sizing means just to the point neck and shoulder merge is good, and it may be for their rifle.

I've found that most neck sizing also means you're partially sizing the case, starting at where the shoulder and body merge. How far down depends on the die set.

Use a Sharpie to blacken the neck on "one" of your cases. Then back off your full length sizing die (Bonanza is one of the best) 1/2 turn, and reset the locking ring.

Then size the case, after lubing before of course.

When you extract the case from the die, there should be a "visible" portion of the case neck that has been resized, and the rest of the neck should be slightly expanded, from the last firing.

This method should ensure your case matches the dimensions of your chamber very closely. The slightly expanded area on the neck will help the whole case to "center" the bullet to the axis of the bore and engage the leade true and consistently.

Some people will cry, "neck tension is wrong." No, it isn't. It will work just fine in a bolt action rifle.

By doing this, you will eliminate a lot of variables.

Consistency/concentricity is the secret to hand loading accurate ammunition.

The method of sizing, outlined above, will also extend the useful life of your cases.

You should re anneal your cases, usually after 4 reloadings, or when it feels hard to size in your press.

I full length anneal my cases, but many here will cry "heresy"

If you aren't using a semi auto or pump action rifle, you will be good to go.

There may be issues with some magnums, but I haven't had any.

It's your call on that one.

 

[g3arhead]

Just for clarity is the .40” group something you can do all the time; or it something that happened once? The way you chose your words make me wonder.

I’ve done it twice with that gun. 2x3 shot groups.

 

[g3arhead]

I’ve done it twice with that gun. 2x3 shot groups.

To be honest, I should shoot more groups and get a larger sample size, to ensure it wasn't a fluke.

 

[starvin]

Or inertia pull some of those bullets and load them up in place of the Speer.

 

[OldDude]

Unfortunately I have zero friends into reloading. Here's what I'm working with and what my process is thus far.

Sizing:
<<snip>>
Using a Hornady Comparator kit, I verify that I bump .0002-.00025.
<<Snip>>

What the heck and I doing wrong here?

How are you measuring shoulder bump to 1/100000 of an inch?

Or is that a typo?

 

[junkdude]

Try different powders and bullet combinations
Primers too
I’ve had good luck with 308 using hornady or sierra bullets with cci LR primers and imr 4064 powder
Make a bunch of loads with small powder increments and do 5 round groups with each until you find the best group, then you can fine tune from there
Sometimes it takes a bit of testing to find that right load but it’s worth it
Don’t go for “max” loads either, I’ve found the hotter loads usually never group as well as a milder once
A deer isn’t gonna know the difference between a few hundred fps

I've also found that most of my guns like less than max load. Usually around the 75% of max seems to be ideal. I have a 6.5x55 tikka that really likes RL22, I'd imagine the CM performs very similar.

 

[waldo54]

I've also found that most of my guns like less than max load. Usually around the 75% of max seems to be ideal. I have a 6.5x55 tikka that really likes RL22, I'd imagine the CM performs very similar.

75% of max ?? that must be a typo, maybe you meant 95% as most reload data shows starting loads around 90% of max and going up from there, in my 50 years of reloading I have never started load development as low as 75% of max charge

 

[g3arhead]

T

How are you measuring shoulder bump to 1/100000 of an inch?

Or is that a typo?

Typo. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[junkdude]

75% of max ?? that must be a typo, maybe you meant 95% as most reload data shows starting loads around 90% of max and going up from there, in my 50 years of reloading I have never started load development as low as 75% of max charge

Nope, not a typo but I should clarify. You are right it's not really 75% of max load. It is 75% of the difference between max and min load. So say min is 40gr and max is 50gr then load would be

40gr + 0.75 x (50gr- 40gr) = 47.5gr

In this case it does work out to 95% of max load. Thanks for pointing this out.

 

[708fan]

Unfortunately I have zero friends into reloading. Here's what I'm working with and what my process is thus far.

Sizing:
Lee Challenger Breech Lock press. Bonanza FL 308 sizing and seating die. Hornady shell holder.
I got some Federal cases off a guy from EE last year, and did an initial resize so that they will fit inside a case gauge. They're all wet tumbled.
I made DIY case wax using lanolin oil and 99% alcohol. I spray this into a plastic bag, toss the cases in and mix. Then I wait a few minutes, and go to resizing.
Using a Hornady Comparator kit, I verify that I bump .0002-.00025.
I wipe off the lube using a towel.
Trimmed to 2.005 (or as close to this as possible) using Frankford Arsenal trimmer (the one that goes on a drill). The necks get chamfered inside and out every time. I trim the entire batch of 50 once I have 1 case which exceeds 2.015.

I then move onto to priming, where I use a Lee bench primer. I seat primers just a touch below flush (just using my finger to verify).

Charging the case:
I've got an old Pacific powder measure. I throw a charge that is approximately my desired charge weight, and I am measuring with a Dillon eliminator beam scale (I believe this one is made by Ohaus). I then trickle up to desired charge weight using Frankford Arsenal trickler, and toss the charge into the case (slowly, so I don't get bridging. I find that going slow generally allows me to fit more in).

Seating bullets:
I have a dummy round that I've made with the desired bullet and desired COAL, so that I can easily set up the bullet seater quickly to desired COAL.
I put the case into the shell holder, and while holding the bullet in place, I move the ram. I don't give much thought to how it's seated. I just move the ram up till it stops. I verify COAL after. I don't have bullet comparators yet, and I'm aware that the bullets I'm using will not all be perfect and equal length, thus creating some variance in COAL.

To determine what loads to use, I'm going off Vihtavuori online manual as well as Hornady. My starting charge will be middle of what the recommended is, then I increase in increments of .3 grains. I might make 6 different loads. I typically don't get to max, as it's not my priority to get max velocity, just desired acc
COAL is just whatever the book suggests. Haven't played with seating depth.

What the heck and I doing wrong here?

“Don’t lube the neck or shoulder or neck”: Speer Manual #15 page 81. Use a case lube pad. Trim and chamfer when cases reach max spec. Lube in the case will definitely affect accuracy.(possibly THE problem)
You can bump your shoulders up to .0035 with no loss in accuracy. “Loose shoots good” was mentioned at 1000 yard ranges long before the internet.
Primers must be seated by feel. Depth variation is not relevant.
Hold tight and keep your eye open to spot reticle movement before muzzle exit.

 

[The ROC]

So, I’m a newbie reloader. Currently loading up 308 win and 6.5 creedmoor. The 308 I’m shooting out of is a TikkaT3 Battue. I’m looking to develop my own hunting loads, with cup/core bullets and N140. I use CCI BR2 primers. Federal cases.

I’ve tried Speer 150 and 165gn Hot-cor, Hornady Interlock 150. Every group is 1.5ish in or greater. I’ve also shot 5 shot groups (3 times) to add more to the sample size.

The gun is capable of a .4in group with factory Sako 150gn hunting ammo.

With the 6.5 Creed I’m shooting this out of a Weatherby Vanguard. No hunting loads; Barnes Match Burner 120gn with N555, Sako cases and white river primers . Groups are sub MOA.

Question is, what am I doing wrong with the 308? Am I just #### at reloading ?

Or is this more so, my gun being picky about bullets ?

It's not mentioned or maybe I missed it but are you shooting open sights or scoped on the Battue. If open sights then 1.5ish groups at 100 is pretty darn good.

I'm around 3" groups at 75 yards with my Battue open sights with Hornady 165 gr SP, 43.4 gr of VV N150, federal brass, and CCI LRP.

With the same load out of my T3x and a 3-9x scope I'm getting around 1" average groups.

Also, are you letting the barrel cool right down after 3 to 5 shots? Our barrels are thin hunting profile barrels.

 

[g3arhead]

It's not mentioned or maybe I missed it but are you shooting open sights or scoped on the Battue. If open sights then 1.5ish groups at 100 is pretty darn good.

I'm around 3" groups at 75 yards with my Battue open sights with Hornady 165 gr SP, 43.4 gr of VV N150, federal brass, and CCI LRP.

With the same load out of my T3x and a 3-9x scope I'm getting around 1" average groups.

Also, are you letting the barrel cool right down after 3 to 5 shots? Our barrels are thin hunting profile barrels.

Actually I’ve got a 1-6 scope on the gun.

When I have shot with the Battue sights at 50yd, I can produce a 2in ish group, but it’s all 4 inches to the left of where my point of aim is.

 

[The ROC]

Actually I’ve got a 1-6 scope on the gun.

When I have shot with the Battue sights at 50yd, I can produce a 2in ish group, but it’s all 4 inches to the left of where my point of aim is.

Same as mine. I went back to my old pictures of my groups and at 75 and 50 yards is 3". At 25 yards 0.859". My 25 and 50 yard groups are to the left but at 75 was on target both elevation and windage. The open sight are factory settings and have not touched them. IIRC they are bullseye at 80 yards then my reloads start to drop after that.

I think your 1.5ish groups at 100 at 6x is pretty good. I bet if you amount a higher power scope you could tighten up your groups. Like I mentioned I'm getting around 1" average at 100 at 9x. Some groups at 2" if I'm careless or don't let the barrel cool down.

 

[bearhunter]

To be honest, I should shoot more groups and get a larger sample size, to ensure it wasn't a fluke.

You're right about doing it to establish the rifle's norms.

Just because you've shot two .4 inch groups, only proves the rifle is capable of doing so. It also shows you're very close to the right load recipe.

How many groups have you shot from this rifle? What were the other groups like, with the same load?

How many shots are through the bore since it was last cleaned?

How many shots through the bore of the TIkka T3 since it was last cleaned?

Most rifles will have a sweet spot for accuracy that relies critically on the bore condition.

My Tikka T3 rifles need at least one fouling round before they shoot consistently after cleaning the bore, then they're consistent for another 25 shots, but still accurate enough to hunt out to 300yds after 50+ shots.

The 6.5x55 groups on paper start sub moa, and open up to appx sub 1.5 moa at 100yds. Good for boiler room shots on a Deer to 300yds.

The 223 rem groups are much tighter and don't start to open from .75 in until at least 60 rounds are through the barrel, after last being cleaned.

You need to find out where the jacket/powder fouling in your bore starts to affect accuracy.

 

[Dogleg]

To be honest, I should shoot more groups and get a larger sample size, to ensure it wasn't a fluke.

If you are going to shoot more groups you might as well shoot one 10 shot group. Same anount of cartridges. Did you know that there are 120 unique 3 shot groups in a single 10? 720 possibilities if you think the order they hit is important

The chances of a 3 shot group indicating that you could put a few boxes into that group and not enlarge it aren’t zero, but they might as well be. You mentioned samples. A sample has to be big enough that you can accurately predict whatwould happen if you shot them all.
I can accurately predict that if you shot a whole 20 box of factory ammo in a group there would be some great 3 shot groups in there. With 1140 possibilities there just about has to be.

If the accuracy of which accuracy is determined doesn’t matter, doesn’t that sort of indicate that that rifle accuracy itself doesn’t matter as much as we thought?

 

[starvin]

I always appreciate doglegs posts, but sometimes they make my brain hurt.

 

[g3arhead]

You're right about doing it to establish the rifle's norms.

Just because you've shot two .4 inch groups, only proves the rifle is capable of doing so. It also shows you're very close to the right load recipe.

How many groups have you shot from this rifle? What were the other groups like, with the same load?

How many shots are through the bore since it was last cleaned?

How many shots through the bore of the TIkka T3 since it was last cleaned?

Most rifles will have a sweet spot for accuracy that relies critically on the bore condition.

My Tikka T3 rifles need at least one fouling round before they shoot consistently after cleaning the bore, then they're consistent for another 25 shots, but still accurate enough to hunt out to 300yds after 50+ shots.

The 6.5x55 groups on paper start sub moa, and open up to appx sub 1.5 moa at 100yds. Good for boiler room shots on a Deer to 300yds.

The 223 rem groups are much tighter and don't start to open from .75 in until at least 60 rounds are through the barrel, after last being cleaned.

You need to find out where the jacket/powder fouling in your bore starts to affect accuracy.

I’m cleaning roughly every 200 shots. I’ve now begun cleaning the chamber roughly every 100. When cleaned, my first 5 shots are cheapie Norinco ammo , as foulers .

I think I initially approached this question as looking into my reloading but it’s evolved into setting realistic expectations for my hunting ammo.

 

[stubblejumper]

The simple fact is, that some rifles are more fussy to loads than others, and you can't always get a rifle to like a certain bullet/powder combination to shoot accurately, regardless of the load specifics. If changing bullets doesn't help, change the powder.

 

[bearhunter]

I’m cleaning roughly every 200 shots. I’ve now begun cleaning the chamber roughly every 100. When cleaned, my first 5 shots are cheapie Norinco ammo , as foulers .

I think I initially approached this question as looking into my reloading but it’s evolved into setting realistic expectations for my hunting ammo.

That's an extremely long string before cleaning if you want better accuracy. IMHO.

Most barrels start to lose accuracy after 20-30 shots.

Are you using a solution to dissolve the copper jacket fouling? If you don't, the accuracy will either stay where it is or continue to get worse.

There gets to be a point, when the fouling has been left in to long and damage is done, then accuracy never comes back.

 

[g3arhead]

That's an extremely long string before cleaning if you want better accuracy. IMHO.

Most barrels start to lose accuracy after 20-30 shots.

Are you using a solution to dissolve the copper jacket fouling? If you don't, the accuracy will either stay where it is or continue to get worse.

There gets to be a point, when the fouling has been left in to long and damage is done, then accuracy never comes back.

Yeah

That's an extremely long string before cleaning if you want better accuracy. IMHO.

Most barrels start to lose accuracy after 20-30 shots.

Are you using a solution to dissolve the copper jacket fouling? If you don't, the accuracy will either stay where it is or continue to get worse.

There gets to be a point, when the fouling has been left in to long and damage is done, then accuracy never comes back.

I’m just going off of what I thought I heard from the likes of the Hornady Podcast. I use a copper cleaner once in a while as well.

No bore scope to verify how clean it is or whatever, but I suspect if I got one, it would be the bane of my existence.