Why does Remington suck so hard?

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diemaco

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No, I'm not talking about their QC issues, the awful SPS/Express finishes that rust on the way back to the truck, or the awful rimfire ammo full of duds.

Remington came up with some of the best cartridges IMO, the 6.5RM, .350RM, .260 Remington, .280 Remington, and the 7 SAUM. And yet the completely #@<&ed up the marketing side of things and chambered the wrong rifles in these great cartridges.

Discuss.
 
It's really hard to get a new cartridge to be successful, especially in the olden days where most rifles being sold were hunting rifles. Today we have high BC bullets and far more people are into gun games (PRS being a big one from the cartridge success perspective), and those new niches help drive cartridge development and sales. The people into those activities buy more guns, and WAY MORE ammo than the average hunter.

Simply put It's hard to sell a 260rem or 280rem to a hunter who already has a 308 or 270win.


7 saum came out after 7WSM, and 7WSM didn't even really survive, likely because they didn't really do anything that 7 rem mag cant, and the Rem Mag had a 40 year head start. 280rem is so close to 270win which already had a strong market presence, and they brought out the 7 rem mag a few years later which further cemented it's demise. Stuff bigger than 30cal has never been all that popular. Nobody cared about 6.5s until recently. There's a pretty simple explanation for why all these cartridges didn't take off.
 
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I'll chime in and use your word "marketing".

Those calibers really don't do anything spectacular that the easily obtainable and inexpensive 243, 308, 270, 30-06 do.

They just seem like calibers made for the sake of making them.

Filling a void that wasnt there when the old faithfuls were still performing good enough for most hunters.

I don't recall any of my Dad's or Uncles groups having any fancy calibers.

There goto calibers were 30-30, 303 and 30-06.
 
I also have noticed that Remington tends to lose the marketing game. Think of all the Winchester cartridges that have become iconic in their category: .243 Win, .270 Win, .30-30 Win, .308 Win, .300 Win Mag, .338 Win Mag, .458 Win Mag.

It seems a much longer list than the handful of Remington successes. Take away the .22 centrefires (.222, .223, .22-250), which have done quite well, and all that jumps to mind are the 7mm Rem Mag and the .44 Rem Mag.

Even going way back, Winchester wins. Lots of people know cartridges like the .38 WCF and .44 WCF. I don't think I could name a black powder Remington cartridge.
 
Toblerone45 said:
I'll chime in and use your word "marketing".

Those calibers really don't do anything spectacular that the easily obtainable and inexpensive 243, 308, 270, 30-06 do.

They just seem like calibers made for the sake of making them.

Filling a void that wasnt there when the old faithfuls were still performing good enough for most hunters.

I don't recall any of my Dad's or Uncles groups having any fancy calibers.

There goto calibers were 30-30, 303 and 30-06.
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comparing a 30-30 or a 303 to the cartridges mentioned is a clear case of not having any in site as to what ballistic's are about
 
BattleRife said:
I also have noticed that Remington tends to lose the marketing game. Think of all the Winchester cartridges that have become iconic in their category: .243 Win, .270 Win, .30-30 Win, .308 Win, .300 Win Mag, .338 Win Mag, .458 Win Mag.

It seems a much longer list than the handful of Remington successes. Take away the .22 centrefires (.222, .223, .22-250), which have done quite well, and all that jumps to mind are the 7mm Rem Mag and the .44 Rem Mag.

Even going way back, Winchester wins. Lots of people know cartridges like the .38 WCF and .44 WCF. I don't think I could name a black powder Remington cartridge.
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35 Remington, 7mm08 Remington, 6mm Remington, 25-06 Remington, 257 Roberts is a Remington, so is 35 whelen...

They're maybe less common, but they're out there.
 
struff55 said:
comparing a 30-30 or a 303 to the cartridges mentioned is a clear case of not having any in site as to what ballistic's are about
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Oh, I get the ballistics but selling these cartridges to people that were and still are filling freezers yearly with game using the tried and true cartridges is next to impossible.
What do these people gain by abandoning their current setup and switching to a new caliber, but hunting from the same stand on the same land.
Zero advantage.
 
Toblerone45 said:
Oh, I get the ballistics but selling these cartridges to people that were and still are filling freezers yearly with game using the tried and true cartridges is next to impossible.
What do these people gain by abandoning their current setup and switching to a new caliber, but hunting from the same stand on the same land.
Zero advantage.
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Oh there's advantages. For example 260rem kills just fine, but recoils less than 308win. But good luck getting a hunter in 1980 to admit their gun recoils too much. Lol
 
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Suther said:
Oh there's advantages. For example 260rem kills just fine, but recoils less than 308win. But good luck getting a hunter in 1980 to admit their gun recoils too much. Lol
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.260 Rem was struggling against 6.5X55 and .270 Win... some cartridges just catch the eye of the market and if they do that long enough, the market gets nostalgic about them.
 
To drive innovation a corporation has to invest in the best people to create it.
Pulling profits at the expense of R&D or redirecting to litigation doesn’t leave much to secure those few people with the ability to come up with those exciting new offerings or the money needed to realize them…
Remington’s problems likely started years before most people saw a decline as short term gains often mask the long term outcome.
In my opinion, your opinion on their level of suck is attributed to this.
That said I think they had a great run and while unlikely might have a few good days ahead as well.
 
diemaco said:
No, I'm not talking about their QC issues, the awful SPS/Express finishes that rust on the way back to the truck, or the awful rimfire ammo full of duds.

Remington came up with some of the best cartridges IMO, the 6.5RM, .350RM, .260 Remington, .280 Remington, and the 7 SAUM. And yet the completely #@<&ed up the marketing side of things and chambered the wrong rifles in these great cartridges.

Discuss.
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Like every thing in the gun world these day's it has all gone corporate, over priced junk. These entities no nothing about the firearms business only the bottom line. Buy good used, backed by reputation and quality.
 
hoytcanon said:
.260 Rem was struggling against 6.5X55 and .270 Win... some cartridges just catch the eye of the market and if they do that long enough, the market gets nostalgic about them.
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Oh for sure. I regularly hunt with 3 friends, all of whom shoot 30-06s. Meanwhile I'm out there with a 270, a 303, a 7mm08, maybe my 243... not all gun owners are gunnutz...


Remington also seems to have a habit of ####ing things up. 6mm Remington vs 243 with the twist rate, 280rem with the name change to 7mm Express, the SAUMs releasing months after the WSMs...
 
Suther said:
35 Remington, 7mm08 Remington, 6mm Remington, 25-06 Remington, 257 Roberts is a Remington, so is 35 whelen...

They're maybe less common, but they're out there.
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Of course they are out there. The market is littered with Remington cartridges that became "less common", I think that's the point of this thread.

The 6mm is the perfect example. Remington introduced their .244 cartridge first, but because they made 2 major design mistakes (twist rate, and basing it on the .257 Roberts so it wouldn't fit most short actions) it completely flopped. They renamed it to try to mitigate some of the damage, but Winchester came along with the .243 and became the champ of the category.

The .25-06 is the only one on the above list that I will agree Remington did well with.
 
7mm08 is likely the most popular 7mm short action cartridge - It's certainly more common to find a new production rifle in that than the 284Win, or the WSM or SAUM, or 7mm Mauser and 280/280ai for that matter.

BattleRife said:
Of course they are out there. The market is littered with Remington cartridges that became "less common", I think that's the point of this thread.

The 6mm is the perfect example. Remington introduced their .244 cartridge first, but because they made 2 major design mistakes (twist rate, and basing it on the .257 Roberts so it wouldn't fit most short actions) it completely flopped. They renamed it to try to mitigate some of the damage, but Winchester came along with the .243 and became the champ of the category.

The .25-06 is the only one on the above list that I will agree Remington did well with.
Click to expand...
 
bibatoad said:
Like every thing in the gun world these day's it has all gone corporate, over priced junk. These entities no nothing about the firearms business only the bottom line. Buy good used, backed by reputation and quality.
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I agree with you that 99% of companies are that way. But there are a few small ones out there still.

Not sure if you have been following Thompson Center or not, but the original owner bought it back. And is doing one heck of a job doing everything to stay made in America, doing almost everything by manually machining, and employing people that know what they are doing. Listening to the customers and what they want, and really trying to get that name recognition back.

His YouTube channel is quite the fresh take on a gun company, what they are doing, how they are going about it. And actually responding, and listening to his customers.
 
Denver Steve said:
I agree with you that 99% of companies are that way. But there are a few small ones out there still.

Not sure if you have been following Thompson Center or not, but the original owner bought it back. And is doing one heck of a job doing everything to stay made in America, doing almost everything by manually machining, and employing people that know what they are doing. Listening to the customers and what they want, and really trying to get that name recognition back.

His YouTube channel is quite the fresh take on a gun company, what they are doing, how they are going about it. And actually responding, and listening to his customers.
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I agree, have watched T/C resurrect themselves, I personally own several models from their company. I miss all of the beautiful exposed hammer muzzleloaders they produced as well as the Contender line. I'm 72 now and remember the good old day's. where quality outstripped quantity.
 
I personally feel like there are way too many centrefire cartridges and we don’t need any more. There are 3 or 4 common shotgun gauges and that is enough options for me. If you come out with a cartridge that is almost identical ballistically to one that already exists you deserve for nobody to buy it.
 
I have owned and enjoyed all the previous Remington cartridges mentioned, plus a few others (8mm Rem Mag, 416 Rem Mag etc). Their marketing department wasn't a whole lot different than Winchesters, but timing really makes a difference. As for the mentioned cartridges, 6mm Rem is a better cartridge than the 243, 7 saum is better cartridge than the 7 wsm, and the 6.5 and 350 were a 6.5-06 and 35 Whelen in a light, short, handy carbine. They are great hunting rifles, but not for the average hunter. Hunters aren't necessarily gun guys, they mostly own guns so they can hunt. Most gunnies hunt so they can take their guns for a walk in the woods and put them to use. - dan
 
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BattleRife said:
Even going way back, Winchester wins. Lots of people know cartridges like the .38 WCF and .44 WCF. I don't think I could name a black powder Remington cartridge.
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I was thinking about this part of your post. It's not just cartridges from those days, it's also rifles. Not only are there a lot of old Winchesters around, Winchester still makes some of those 120+ year old models, as do other companies. Meanwhile Remington has nothing of the sort going on.

Maybe that's a testament to the lasting power of the lever action? What was Remington making in 1894, Rolling Blocks and single action revolvers?
 
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