Bodeo M1889 load confusion

[thelou]

I'm looking for a load for an Italian M1889 revolver.

First stop, reloading manuals. I have two European ones that list loads for this cartridge. They both speak of the M1889.
One gives the cartridge case length at .74, and the maximum pressure at 700 bar (10150 psi), recommends .427 bullet.
The other has 0.78 and the maximum pressure at 630 bar (9137 psi), recommends .422 bullet.

I don't want to list the specific loads recommended. You'll see why.

Next up, I run the proposed loads through Gordon's Reloading Tool. Just to see. That tells me that they're into dangerous territory.

The CIP page on the cartridge is at:
https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uploads/tdcc/tab-iv/tabivcal-en-page33.pdf
and also quotes 630 bar (9137 psi). That's what GRT bases itself on, I assume.

That's low, really low. Even very low for a black powder revolver, and my understanding is that the Italian army was loading these with smokeless. Frankly, it doesn't look that flimsy, and from the "vibe" of it, I'm pretty sure that it could take more than that.

I look around and find this:
https://bobshellsblog.########.com/2008/07/italian-revolvers.html
Loads that are WAY higher than anything recommended, yet apparently didn't blow up (to the extent that this kind of blog-type information can be reliable). But... a clue. Blog Bob is talking about the M1874, though judging by the pictures, he actually has an M1889. Many other online reports speak of loads that also look similarly dangerous, but none of the reports talk of blown up guns.

Is that what gives? Are those CIP pressure numbers for the M1874, and the M1889 can handle significantly more than stated in the CIP profile?
And the loading manuals, despite stating the CIP numbers, are actually targetting the M1889?

Also, if manufacturing this from 44 Russian, why would one cut it down the .74 if longer fits? It seems to me that it would be safer / lower pressure to gain that extra bit of space.

Furthermore, the annoying thing about those European loading manuals is that they're targetting very specific bullets, which presumably have a crimp groove, and don't directly give a seating depth. If I make it the maximum OAL listed, there's more of the bullet outside the case than inside, and we're crimping into a lube groove. I note that these aren't heeled bullets, nor are heeled bullets what is being recommended in the manuals (though heeled bullets were used in the early days with these revolvers). Seating the bullets anywhere other than the lube groove basically causes GRT to freak out.

All this to say, has anyone had experience with these? My *guess* is that they're probably okay till at least the usual 1 atm (14500 psi) typical of black powder, which would explain why people are getting 7-800 fps out of them without blowing up, despite what GRT says. But I don't want to find this out experimentally. At the same time, it can't be that the reloading manuals are all wrong. And I don't see why I shouldn't leave the cartridge case longer if possible: my understanding is that this reduces pressure.

Any help much appreciated!

 

[BlackPowderBurner]

When it comes to antiques like this loading to “spec” is almost worthless unless you have original period documentation. Cast the chambers on your cylinder. Slug the barrel and forcing cone. Measure the chamber mouths. Then you’ll know exactly what you are dealing with. Trim the brass to what fits your gun. Order a bullet mold to match from Accurate Molds as it allows you to enter custom dimensions or even submit a new profile entirely. Loading a case full of bp won’t damage an 1874 or 1889.

 

[thelou]

Thanks!

I just slugged it - my first time, but I think it went reasonably well. I get .423. I measured it several times all around and they're all the same. I note in passing that although this revolver is badly beaten up cosmetically, lockup is tight, the cylinder gap is barely visible, and the bore is essentially perfect.

It sounds to me like I should probably aim for .424 for a bullet size? I can get lead bullets in .427 (made for 44-40), and a sizer to make it .424. Does that make any sense as an attempt? Or is it too brutal of a resizing? Casting bullets is a bit too involved for me.

Next up, I'm going to take a .44 Russian casing and trim it to .89, to see if that works. That's within my skill set. Is that a good approach?

 

[BlackPowderBurner]

Revolver reloading considers several different aspects than semi auto or rifle. Bore diameter is one thing, groove diameter is another, you must compare those measurements against the diameter of all your chamber mouths whose diameters may vary depending on quality of manufacture. The diameter of the forcing cone should also be considered as it may taper significantly into the true bore diameter. That is why I suggested two sluggings. Ideally you should be pursuing a bullet diameter equal or within half a thou to the cylinder throat diameter. A slightly large bullet exiting the cylinder will be sized down when traveling through the forcing cone and down the barrel. This ensures good gas sealing, minimizes leading, and helps maintain consistent velocity.

Cerrosafe alloy can be used to cast your chambers. It can be melted in a tuna can with a candle. It will tell you exactly what the case length should be. It can also give you true chamber mouth diameters You can trim and fit by trial and error until your case just barely fits the cylinder. Don’t bother trimming to an arbitrary spec., let your actual gun in hand tell you what it needs.

 

[thelou]

Wow, thanks for all the info!
How do I slug the forcing cone? Do we mean banging a piece of lead onto it and then measuring that?

I don't have any cerrosafe, but it sounds like a 44 Russian casing and trial and error is an acceptable substitute?

Should I be trying to taper the 44 Russian casing a bit first (or after?) with a .303 British die as I've seen some recommend? My concern is that the casing might be spec'd or .429 or .430 bullets. If I'm taking things down to .424, surely it'll take way too much crimp otherwise? Or do I have it completely wrong?

 

[BlackPowderBurner]

Yes you can tap pure lead into it as long as that lead is slightly over size. Cerrosafe is cheap and infinitely reusable, it is worth investing in half a pound as it'll last the rest of your life. Rotometals sells a version of the same alloy for slightly cheaper. You'll find so many applications where it's extremely useful.

Creating the taper before trimming is necessary to allow the case to enter the chambers properly so you can start to trim to fit. If you are in Edmonton I would be happy to help you with cerrosafe casting.

 

[thelou]

I'm going to see where I can go with measuring the forcing cone tomorrow.
For tonight, I managed to find cerrosafe for sale online and ordered it. Looks like it'll take a while to show up, but undoubtedly you're right, and it's a good long-term investment.

I think I have a .303 British die somewhere in a box of stuff I picked up, so I'm going to dig for that tomorrow as well.
Is there any reason to trim if I can make the whole thing (44 Russian) fit? I can tell that it's not that far from fitting. OTOH, it would be longer than the originals were, possibly for a reason. I could push the bullet in farther to make up for it, of course. I've seen people talk online of reaming out the chambers to make it take 44 Russian, so presumably it's not a totally outrageous idea to have slightly longer brass (?).

The offer of help is much appreciated! Sadly, I'm in Eastern Canada, or I'd take you up on it.

Re: cerrosafe, do I try to block one end with duck tape or something like that, and pour in the other? My worry is that it starts to spill all over the place.

 

[BlackPowderBurner]

I'm going to see where I can go with measuring the forcing cone tomorrow.
For tonight, I managed to find cerrosafe for sale online and ordered it. Looks like it'll take a while to show up, but undoubtedly you're right, and it's a good long-term investment.

I think I have a .303 British die somewhere in a box of stuff I picked up, so I'm going to dig for that tomorrow as well.
Is there any reason to trim if I can make the whole thing (44 Russian) fit? I can tell that it's not that far from fitting. OTOH, it would be longer than the originals were, possibly for a reason. I could push the bullet in farther to make up for it, of course. I've seen people talk online of reaming out the chambers to make it take 44 Russian, so presumably it's not a totally outrageous idea to have slightly longer brass (?).

The offer of help is much appreciated! Sadly, I'm in Eastern Canada, or I'd take you up on it.

Re: cerrosafe, do I try to block one end with duck tape or something like that, and pour in the other? My worry is that it starts to spill all over the place.

There's no need to trim as long as your case and bullet can fit. Don't seat the bullet deeper in the case to try and meet some dubious nominal spec. as it is not necessary. An increase in case volume from a longer case will lower pressures with smokeless, it will also allow for more black powder which is nice. Having long brass is fine.

Regarding cerrosafe use, use tight fitting cotton/flannel patches to plug the bore just ahead of where you are trying to fill and carefully pour it to a bit above where you want to finish. If you cast it too far down into the rifling it will be difficult to tap out when solid. Spilling cerrosafe is not a big deal, it's not hot enough to scorch most surfaces and any accidental splatter pops off with finger nail pressure and can be added back to the melt. Just be aware getting it out of woven cloth is hard so use it over a hard surface. A cheap amazon silicone cookie baking sheet is convenient. I have used plasticine to dam up areas on the gun where I don't want it to flow like extractor grooves and tight corners. For casting the chamber on a cylinder, I would suggest creating a small plug at the throat end out of plasticine, maybe 1/16" thick, placing something solid and flat underneath to hold it in place, and pouring from the chamber end until you are about to spill over. This will allow you to capture the rim diameter (on guns with a recessed rim) and create some extra mass to account for shrinkage of the casting during cooling.

 

[pcvando]

The "quick and dirty" Bodeo 1889 load involves loading .44 Russian to BP period load spec with a soft lead bullet, and then running the loaded round through a .303 sizing die without the decapping pin. It creates a slight taper.

You get a functional round that most Bodeo 1889's shoot relatively well with.

Replicating period correct cartridges is more difficult, and can involve significant work. Correct brass and 10.35 Italian die sets can be obtained, along with custom heeled bullet moulds.

 

[thelou]

There's no need to trim as long as your case and bullet can fit. Don't seat the bullet deeper in the case to try and meet some dubious nominal spec. as it is not necessary. An increase in case volume from a longer case will lower pressures with smokeless, it will also allow for more black powder which is nice. Having long brass is fine.

Thanks for confirming that. The manual I have lists a smokeless load for it, and cut down brass, and I was thinking: "Doesn't that make it worse?"
I wonder why they cut the size of the cartridge in the first place?

It's strong enough to take some extra BP? It certainly looks it, but what do I know?

Regarding cerrosafe use, use tight fitting cotton/flannel patches to plug the bore just ahead of where you are trying to fill and carefully pour it to a bit above where you want to finish. If you cast it too far down into the rifling it will be difficult to tap out when solid. Spilling cerrosafe is not a big deal, it's not hot enough to scorch most surfaces and any accidental splatter pops off with finger nail pressure and can be added back to the melt. Just be aware getting it out of woven cloth is hard so use it over a hard surface. A cheap amazon silicone cookie baking sheet is convenient. I have used plasticine to dam up areas on the gun where I don't want it to flow like extractor grooves and tight corners. For casting the chamber on a cylinder, I would suggest creating a small plug at the throat end out of plasticine, maybe 1/16" thick, placing something solid and flat underneath to hold it in place, and pouring from the chamber end until you are about to spill over. This will allow you to capture the rim diameter (on guns with a recessed rim) and create some extra mass to account for shrinkage of the casting during cooling.

Thanks for the tips. I'm going to go quiet on this for about two weeks while I wait for the cerrosafe to show up. Then I'll be back for more advice once I have my casting .

 

[thelou]

The "quick and dirty" Bodeo 1889 load involves loading .44 Russian to BP period load spec with a soft lead bullet, and then running the loaded round through a .303 sizing die without the decapping pin. It creates a slight taper.

You get a functional round that most Bodeo 1889's shoot relatively well with.

Replicating period correct cartridges is more difficult, and can involve significant work. Correct brass and 10.35 Italian die sets can be obtained, along with custom heeled bullet moulds.

This sounds like an interesting idea. Would I be doing something like starting with a 200 gr .44 Russian BP round (maybe 180 gr is better? I have some 180 gr .44 lead), and putting it through the .303 die as-is? Is the idea that it'll tape the brass a bit, and also crush most of the bullet down enough that it's not too big, leaving a bit of a driving band from the part that was out of the brass, roughly duplicating the original?

Doing this repeatedly must be quite rough on brass, as I imagine that one has to re-expand it to be able to seat the next bullet?

I think I'm going to try to get the H&C kit, to at least see what things should look like. It's a bit expensive, but less so than blowing things up. The supplies are too expensive to be viable long-term, though the die could be, if it works with modified brass and other bullets. From what I see on their catalog, their bullets have the driving band. Any thoughts on whether this is worth the investment?

 

[pcvando]

This sounds like an interesting idea. Would I be doing something like starting with a 200 gr .44 Russian BP round (maybe 180 gr is better? I have some 180 gr .44 lead), and putting it through the .303 die as-is? Is the idea that it'll tape the brass a bit, and also crush most of the bullet down enough that it's not too big, leaving a bit of a driving band from the part that was out of the brass, roughly duplicating the original?

Doing this repeatedly must be quite rough on brass, as I imagine that one has to re-expand it to be able to seat the next bullet?

I think I'm going to try to get the H&C kit, to at least see what things should look like. It's a bit expensive, but less so than blowing things up. The supplies are too expensive to be viable long-term, though the die could be, if it works with modified brass and other bullets. From what I see on their catalog, their bullets have the driving band. Any thoughts on whether this is worth the investment?

Personally, I would not mess around with altering the bullet shapes etc.

Load up some .44 Russian, period BP (Black Powder) loads. Do not use smokeless. Run them through the .303 die. You physically cannot stuff enough BP into a .44 Russian case to cause any over pressure issues.

Bodeo 1889's, especially the antiques, are soft malleable iron. They are in fact very soft. So stick to BP only. During WW1 and post war refurbishment programs, many older Bodeo 1889's were retrofitted with new steel cylinders and parts. Sometimes you even see antique dated examples with refurbishment or repair markings into the WW2 era!

H&C kits are fantastic.

Highly recommend if you want a fun little kit that you can even use with you while at the shooting bench. They also replicate original bullets and brass fairly well. It is also nice to keep with the pistol, and if you ever wanted to sell, buyers like that sort of thing.

 

[thelou]

Load up some .44 Russian, period BP (Black Powder) loads. Do not use smokeless. Run them through the .303 die. You physically cannot stuff enough BP into a .44 Russian case to cause any over pressure issues.

Won't that alter the bullet shape, indirectly?

Bodeo 1889's, especially the antiques, are soft malleable iron. They are in fact very soft. So stick to BP only. During WW1 and post war refurbishment programs, many older Bodeo 1889's were retrofitted with new steel cylinders and parts. Sometimes you even see antique dated examples with refurbishment or repair markings into the WW2 era!

Good to know. This one is 1896. Perhaps the reloading manual doesn't take into consideration that there are variations on these revolvers?
It seems to me that there is quite a bit of confusion out there (hence the title of my post), which I find a little off-putting.

Highly recommend if you want a fun little kit that you can even use with you while at the shooting bench. They also replicate original bullets and brass fairly well. It is also nice to keep with the pistol, and if you ever wanted to sell, buyers like that sort of thing.

Okay, so I'm ordering one.
With any luck, this and the cerrosafe will arrive roughly at the same time, so I'll be able to continue this project in both directions .

 

[pcvando]

Won't that alter the bullet shape, indirectly?

Good to know. This one is 1896. Perhaps the reloading manual doesn't take into consideration that there are variations on these revolvers?
It seems to me that there is quite a bit of confusion out there (hence the title of my post), which I find a little off-putting.

Okay, so I'm ordering one.
With any luck, this and the cerrosafe will arrive roughly at the same time, so I'll be able to continue this project in both directions .

Yes, it creates a taper, wider at the bottom, narrower at the top. The soft lead seems to expand fine and creates decent groupings.

Nice! Keep us posted as to how it turns out.

 

[thelou]

During WW1 and post war refurbishment programs, many older Bodeo 1889's were retrofitted with new steel cylinders and parts. Sometimes you even see antique dated examples with refurbishment or repair markings into the WW2 era!

BTW, I just did some back-of-the-envelope calculations, assuming that we're dealing with wrought iron (as opposed to steel), and I can see why: the cylinder looks like the likely weak point, by a significant margin. This is assuming that on the frame, the top strap would be the weak point, which might not be the case, but probably is. I realize that I'm being very conservative with my calculations (assuming that each chamber is a cylinder with wall thickness the thinnest point and that the brass doesn't help out--in reality, the overall shape of the cylinder will make it stronger than that but it's beyond me to calculate by how much). In any case, I can see why the CIP number is what it is. Also, I have no safety factor in there, which one would want!

I managed to find the .303 British die, and some 200 gr .428 lead bullets meant for 44-40, meanwhile. Maybe those could be a starting point.

Other stuff is on order and expected to take several weeks, so I'm likely to be quiet for a while unless there is additional feedback or I somehow make more progress.

Thanks to everyone so far!

 

[thelou]

A bit of a status update: I had some time this weekend, so I tried building a "dummy" round (i.e., no powder or primer, so safe to do stupid things with) of 44 Russian (brass) / .428 200 gr. I ended up loading it by pushing it in with my fingers (1 thou really does make a difference: I don't think I could do that with .429 or .430!). Then I "crimped" it with the .303 British decapping die, until it just barely loaded (in all cylinders--I noticed that one was slightly tighter than the others). It's probably a bit longer than it should be, but still fully within the cylinder.

I think I'm going to carefully measure it and take pictures, then pull the bullet to see what size the pseudo-heel is as a result of this "operation".

One thing I'm not sure of is whether the rim is thick enough. It does look like the hammer would hit the primer (and I might try inserting a primer to try it out), but would excessive headspace be an issue? Eyeballing it, it doesn't seem obviously excessive, but I think I'd at least want to compare it with a "proper" round from H&C. It doesn't protrude from its cylinder "recess", so I'm not really sure how I'd measure the headspace: feeler gauges won't do it. Advice?

This type of round would differ from the one suggested by the European reloading manual in that it's longer and crimped into a tapered profile. Otherwise, the components are pretty much a match (same diameter of bullet, though not the same brand). Both these changes look like improvements, though. Perhaps not if putting black powder? Will the load be excessive? I'm going to see what data I can get on how much the case volume (not including that taken up by the bullet) was originally. I suspect that it's probably safe "enough" from what is said here, and from seeing reports of people reaming the cylinders out to accept unmodified 44 Russian.

Anyway, this "report" is a bit premature, but I just wanted to share it so that it doesn't look like I've lost interest!

Now I have to wait for the mail .

 

[tokguy]

The "quick and dirty" Bodeo 1889 load involves loading .44 Russian to BP period load spec with a soft lead bullet, and then running the loaded round through a .303 sizing die without the decapping pin. It creates a slight taper.

You get a functional round that most Bodeo 1889's shoot relatively well with.

Replicating period correct cartridges is more difficult, and can involve significant work. Correct brass and 10.35 Italian die sets can be obtained, along with custom heeled bullet moulds.

I've done this method.
I size down the pills a bit as well.
Works OK.

 

[thelou]

I pulled out the bullet with a gravity bullet-puller. Measuring it, the "heel" is now approx .422-.423 (it's not perfectly round).
I'm left thinking that what is being said here makes total sense! I wonder how many cycles the brass would last with this .303 British business.

 

[Claven2]

With what the gun costs, why not buy the right does? CH4D sells them.

 

[thelou]

With what the gun costs, why not buy the right does? CH4D sells them.

I couldn't agree more! They're also something I'm waiting for in the mail .