Basically we have the same floor plate then. The custom Wisner is extra thick and CNC machined with a pocket for the spring to compress into. This helps the 3 1/2 and 5 1/2 downs to become 4 and 6s respectively. Some rifles need the help and some don't. It is cool to have a third of a box of ammo in your gun isn't it? I can't think of a better place for the spare ammo we carry than already in the magazine, plus if carried with an empty chamber you still have a handful of shells in the gun.
9.3*62 vs 375 H&H
- Thread starter jcbruno
- Start date
Basically we have the same floor plate then. The custom Wisner is extra thick and CNC machined with a pocket for the spring to compress into. This helps the 3 1/2 and 5 1/2 downs to become 4 and 6s respectively. Some rifles need the help and some don't. It is cool to have a third of a box of ammo in your gun isn't it? I can't think of a better place for the spare ammo we carry than already in the magazine, plus if carried with an empty chamber you still have a handful of shells in the gun.
Neo,
I think it was Richard Harland that calculated across all his culling years and came up with slightly over 3 holes in each buffalo he had shot. I have no reason to think that the average PH is god's gift to riflery, considering that many of them work for $100 a day plus tips. The math doesn't work out.
Zimbabwe has the highest PH qualifications of any African country, including the shooting proficency test. One of my PHs last year had a grand total of 80 rounds through his heavy rifle in the entire time he had owned it, and it was the only one he had ever had. He explained the "high" round count as being because he had practiced so much for his exam. You've probably done that in a weekend, or maybe in a day. I wouldn't make any assumptions about a PH saving your bacon, you could just as easily be his back-up. Honest.
Did you ever hear the old African saying "Don't shoot in front of the clients"?
Stop it, Dogleg -- you're scaring the children!
It's all sound logic, and I can't argue with it. And truth be told, I probably would have settled on a CZ if it weren't for the fact that that damned bolt slams into my face whenever I try to cycle one. For whatever reason, I don't have that problem with the Ruger -- and I know that the result is faster follow-up shots, as I don't have to take my cheek off the stock to work the bolt.
As for PH's and their shooting skill, you probably have a point. Mind you, it can work the other way too. On last year's trip to RSA, there were 5 PH's guiding our group, and some of them were really quite good and serious shooters (one of them a national Bisley champion).
That said, I once read a piece of advice that stayed with me through the years: if you're on a guided hunt, make sure you watch the guide sight in his rifle as carefully as he watches you sight in yours -- for better or worse, the group on his target will tell you something worth knowing...
Neo,
It is not my intention is encourage any shooter to buy a CZ as opposed to a Ruger, Winchester or anything else really. I haven't quite forgiven Ruger for making the RSM so darn good looking though, simply because it weakens my resolve. All I'm doing is pointing out differences as they occur to me, plus of course my standard MO of convincing the entire world that they all need a .375 or two. Gun fit is such a subjective thing, and one man's passion is the next guy's poison. I just swapped stocks on my .416, the guy who gave it to me swore that it would kick him out from under his hat, and I think it tames the recoil nicely and I can now shoot something much bigger. Who's right? Both of us, and I suppose neither.
It is not my intention is encourage any shooter to buy a CZ as opposed to a Ruger, Winchester or anything else really. I haven't quite forgiven Ruger for making the RSM so darn good looking though, simply because it weakens my resolve. All I'm doing is pointing out differences as they occur to me, plus of course my standard MO of convincing the entire world that they all need a .375 or two.
Gun fit is such a subjective thing, and one man's passion is the next guy's poison. I just swapped stocks on my .416, the guy who gave it to me swore that it would kick him out from under his hat, and I think it tames the recoil nicely and I can now shoot something much bigger. Who's right? Both of us, and I suppose neither.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
On the subject of PH's protecting their clients, I would like to opine that as in any profession there are those who excel and those who suck. One would hope the poor ones would find other forms of employment so lets discount them for a moment.
Mark Sullivan has made a name for himself as a charge stopper, but Mark encourages the charges where the other PH's with normal brain development try hard to avoid them. As a result Sullivan has learned to wait for the exact moment to make the shot, resulting in true blood on the shoes kills. Damn few hunter or PH's can do what he does and he's still alive to tell the tale. The trouble is though, what will happen to the client who is of a mind that his PH will protect him when Sullivan has a bad primer, or his footing isn't sure, or one a million other bad things suddenly happen at the worst possible moment. Hunting dangerous game is dangerous. Anyone who takes on dangerous game hunting should be prepared to save his own life and perhaps that of the tracker and PH as well. More than one PH has turned to a client and said, "Thank you very much!"
Mark Sullivan has made a name for himself as a charge stopper, but Mark encourages the charges where the other PH's with normal brain development try hard to avoid them. As a result Sullivan has learned to wait for the exact moment to make the shot, resulting in true blood on the shoes kills. Damn few hunter or PH's can do what he does and he's still alive to tell the tale. The trouble is though, what will happen to the client who is of a mind that his PH will protect him when Sullivan has a bad primer, or his footing isn't sure, or one a million other bad things suddenly happen at the worst possible moment. Hunting dangerous game is dangerous. Anyone who takes on dangerous game hunting should be prepared to save his own life and perhaps that of the tracker and PH as well. More than one PH has turned to a client and said, "Thank you very much!"
Very interesting discussion.
The .416 Rigby is looking better all the time.
When you are close enough to a buffalo to see it's breath on a cold morning, or better yet right in the herd so you can smell them but maybe not see most of them, the .416 starts looking smaller and smaller.
Practically puny.
Republic of Alberta
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- ,location, location
....and cheap and plentyfull 98 actions
I'm sure the 9.3x62s popularity had as much to do with it fitting in the "dime a dozen" standard action as anything else. The magnum Mausers were rare and expensive.
The .35 Whelen was designed to be a poor man's magnum when American's had a pile of standard actions and 30-06 brass, but no money for .375s. Since the differences between the Whelen and the 9.3x62 are miniscule, does that make my .35 a contender for best around caliber ever designed? Somehow I don't think so, though it is useful enough. The cartridge gives up too much in velocity, trajectory and bullet weight to threaten the .375s throne. It's .008" fatter cousin doesn't either.
The .35 Whelen was designed to be a poor man's magnum when American's had a pile of standard actions and 30-06 brass, but no money for .375s. Since the differences between the Whelen and the 9.3x62 are miniscule, does that make my .35 a contender for best around caliber ever designed? Somehow I don't think so, though it is useful enough. The cartridge gives up too much in velocity, trajectory and bullet weight to threaten the .375s throne. It's .008" fatter cousin doesn't either.
Got a 30/06? More than anough gun, Kudu and wildebees is not all that hard to kill. In my experience Elk is much harder to kill.
We killed many Kudu and Wildebees with a 270win!
The ranges you'll be hunting at any gun in the 270-30/06 class will do.
a 180gr bullet out of the '06 is the prefered load and a 150 out of a 270 will do.
If you do go with a larger cal. I'd take the 9.3 for no reason in particular the 375 and 9.3 really are 6 of one half a dozen of the other.
Sure: but a modern-actioned 9.3x62 (or, for that matter, a .35 Whelen with a faster twist) is gonna put heavy rounds down the pipe at the same speed and energy as the .375 H&H rounds of the early 20th century. I'm not going to make the argument that the 9.3 is the equal of the .375 as it is now, since obviously the .375 has been equally improved by modern powders and steel - but it is, essentially, the equal of the .375 that made the cartridge the classic African cartridge. Best all-rounder ever? I never get into that kinda stuff, cause it's too dependent on personal use - but it's tough to make the argument that the .375 as it was designed and first used is all that much(or at all, really) superior to the 9.3 now.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Until manufacturers produce a broader range of bullet weights in .366", the 9.3X62 or for that matter the 9.3X64 will not be viewed as versatile as the .375 in the context of North American hunting. When loaded with the same weight of bullet, to the same velocity, one of two conditions will exist. Either the 9.3X62 will be loaded to excessive pressure, or the .375 will be loaded below it's potential. In the real world of big game hunting though, the .375 can do anything required of it with a 300 gr bullet loaded to 2500 fps, as can the 9.3 with a 286 gr bullet loaded to 2400. With either load, African game from duiker to buffalo can be effectively taken at bushveld ranges. In North America, hunters have become (rightly or wrongly) prone to making longer shots, and as a result the traditional loadings of either cartridge is less attractive; although the usefulness of either cartridge for use on a broad range of game remains unchanged.
great topic! The 9.3 x 62 loaded to an honest 2350 ft/s with a good 286 solid / soft, will do almost everything you want in Africa, including buf. But make sure it is not overloaded and tested in our cold temperaturtes, cause when it gets hot, you are asking for trouble with overloads that are fine here (depending on powder).
It wouldnt be my first choice for buf / rihno (sp) - but it would be for lion, leopard or any number of plains game. Iv seen lion shot with a .308 - no big deal if the conditions are right.
It is when things go south, a 9.3 x 64 or .375 gets better for most anything - but again, where the .416 or .470 and up shines are for the stoppers of big and tough critters that can kill. And these rounds (including the .375) were designed for low pressures, even in the baking heat of countries unlike Canada.
I agree that a 30-06 is good enugh for almost everything, as is an 8X57. Would I fly across the world with one rifle being a 30-06 to hunt kudu, wildebees - yes , would I do that to hunt eland, buf, or larger -- of course not.
Me, I love my my 9.3 X 62, 64 and .375 - they will all suffice for sure - just don't overload them! You just do not want to risk a big hunt with a poped primer or welded bolt. Even if the PH backs you up - your gun will be toast for the trip.
That is why I would err on the side of larger with lower pressures. The .416 Rigby can now be loaded to big numbers past the 2400 ft /s with 400 gr bullet that made it famous. But why would you? The .470 Nitro an be pushed -- but again -- why?
I am in my phase of moving away from high velocity with lighter bullets to moderate velocities with large bullets right now tho, so to each their own.
The other thing to consider is that the .375 tapered brass chambers like a dream in the most demanding of circumstances - no small thing when your dusty, dirty, wet and hot.
It wouldnt be my first choice for buf / rihno (sp) - but it would be for lion, leopard or any number of plains game. Iv seen lion shot with a .308 - no big deal if the conditions are right.
It is when things go south, a 9.3 x 64 or .375 gets better for most anything - but again, where the .416 or .470 and up shines are for the stoppers of big and tough critters that can kill. And these rounds (including the .375) were designed for low pressures, even in the baking heat of countries unlike Canada.
I agree that a 30-06 is good enugh for almost everything, as is an 8X57. Would I fly across the world with one rifle being a 30-06 to hunt kudu, wildebees - yes , would I do that to hunt eland, buf, or larger -- of course not.
Me, I love my my 9.3 X 62, 64 and .375 - they will all suffice for sure - just don't overload them! You just do not want to risk a big hunt with a poped primer or welded bolt. Even if the PH backs you up - your gun will be toast for the trip.
That is why I would err on the side of larger with lower pressures. The .416 Rigby can now be loaded to big numbers past the 2400 ft /s with 400 gr bullet that made it famous. But why would you? The .470 Nitro an be pushed -- but again -- why?
I am in my phase of moving away from high velocity with lighter bullets to moderate velocities with large bullets right now tho, so to each their own.
The other thing to consider is that the .375 tapered brass chambers like a dream in the most demanding of circumstances - no small thing when your dusty, dirty, wet and hot.
BBB,
You make a fair case that the 9.3 is the equal of the .375 100 years ago, but there are other issues with the 9.3. It is often tossed out that the 9.3 x 62 is legal for the bigger dangerous game, but that isn't necessarily true. Rules vary from country to country and most won't allow the 9.3 x 62 for the big guys. Zimbabwe will, providing the cartridge generates 5.3 Kilo Joules of energy. Can you point out which factory load will do that? I really don't think there is one, so really you need a handload to be legal. Some African countries forbid handloading, and even if there is no problem how do you establish that your handloads have the heat turned up? Plenty of those unsmiling uniform types aren't interested in makeing your day a happy one, and are quite adept at applying the T.A.B. principal. The rules quickly become whatever he says they are. I can't imagine dragging a rifle to the third world that has so many built in real and potential problems. Contrast that to the universal acceptance of the boring ole three seven five and the tourist hunter's choice is an easy one. It's just too much problem when the only gain is to use the absolutely smallest caliber the law will allow. Gun nuts aren't known for taking the path of least resistance, but this would be a good time to do it.
You make a fair case that the 9.3 is the equal of the .375 100 years ago, but there are other issues with the 9.3. It is often tossed out that the 9.3 x 62 is legal for the bigger dangerous game, but that isn't necessarily true. Rules vary from country to country and most won't allow the 9.3 x 62 for the big guys. Zimbabwe will, providing the cartridge generates 5.3 Kilo Joules of energy. Can you point out which factory load will do that? I really don't think there is one, so really you need a handload to be legal. Some African countries forbid handloading, and even if there is no problem how do you establish that your handloads have the heat turned up? Plenty of those unsmiling uniform types aren't interested in makeing your day a happy one, and are quite adept at applying the T.A.B. principal. The rules quickly become whatever he says they are. I can't imagine dragging a rifle to the third world that has so many built in real and potential problems. Contrast that to the universal acceptance of the boring ole three seven five and the tourist hunter's choice is an easy one. It's just too much problem when the only gain is to use the absolutely smallest caliber the law will allow. Gun nuts aren't known for taking the path of least resistance, but this would be a good time to do it.
Agreed; I'm pretty far away from considering an African hunt (just now finishing my final project of my undergraduate career, so Buffalo is pretty far off) but if I were looking at Africa, I'd likely buy a new rifle to do it with, for the reasons you mention.
Couple things though: first (and I'm not saying this was your argument, but its common) a lot of the arguments in favour of the 375 have to do with it's classic African status - that it, to a greater or lesser extent, is the classic safari rifle - which is true. But, if that's the case, and we're considering the "classic" 375, then that's an argument that equally favours the modern 9.3.
But I wouldn't argue that the 9.3 is the equal of the 375, though I would argue that they're close - depending on particulars, possibly close enough that there'd be no discernible difference. I would agree with you, though, that the slightly flatter trajectory of the 375 makes it a better all around gun, particularly in Africa where the travel restricts the options you can bring.
For my purposes, though, that doesn't really matter - because for north american dangerous game, flat trajectories are quite a bit less important, since you shouldn't be taking 300 yard pokes at grizzlies. So I bought my 9.3 as a medium range big animal buster that wouldn't break my shoulder or damage a lot of meat -- if I want range, I'll take the 7mm mag, which is fine for everything on the continent except maybe brown bear and buffalo, which, as I said before, you probably shouldn't be shooting at long range anyways.
Anyways, gotta finish the editing and go print off 65 pages of essay before I get into this too much more.
Couple things though: first (and I'm not saying this was your argument, but its common) a lot of the arguments in favour of the 375 have to do with it's classic African status - that it, to a greater or lesser extent, is the classic safari rifle - which is true. But, if that's the case, and we're considering the "classic" 375, then that's an argument that equally favours the modern 9.3.
But I wouldn't argue that the 9.3 is the equal of the 375, though I would argue that they're close - depending on particulars, possibly close enough that there'd be no discernible difference. I would agree with you, though, that the slightly flatter trajectory of the 375 makes it a better all around gun, particularly in Africa where the travel restricts the options you can bring.
For my purposes, though, that doesn't really matter - because for north american dangerous game, flat trajectories are quite a bit less important, since you shouldn't be taking 300 yard pokes at grizzlies. So I bought my 9.3 as a medium range big animal buster that wouldn't break my shoulder or damage a lot of meat -- if I want range, I'll take the 7mm mag, which is fine for everything on the continent except maybe brown bear and buffalo, which, as I said before, you probably shouldn't be shooting at long range anyways.
Anyways, gotta finish the editing and go print off 65 pages of essay before I get into this too much more.
For plains game, there is little to choose between in considering the 9.3x62 and the .375H&H. Both are classic African calibres, and either will kill stone dead any African antelope that ever walked the Serengeti. If you think you might use the gun for dangerous game some day, then the balance tips in favour of the .375 because of its slightly greater oomph. But, if I was considering dangerous game (excluding lions and leopards), I would probably be looking at something stouter anyways.
I have a RSM in 375H&H that I have taken to Africa, and I love the gun. But something tells me that if I had a 9.3x62 in a classic Mauser action, i would be just as pleased.
And, yes, there are many other calibres that will work just as well, but that isn't the question you asked.
I have a RSM in 375H&H that I have taken to Africa, and I love the gun. But something tells me that if I had a 9.3x62 in a classic Mauser action, i would be just as pleased.
And, yes, there are many other calibres that will work just as well, but that isn't the question you asked.
BBB,
My next hunt for buffalo and first for elephant is getting closer. July will eventually get here.
Though my .375 is going along it isn't the primarily weapon, that will be my .416. The H&H's planned use is for everything else, plus being a spare to the Rigby. Ideally I would like 3 or even 4 guns, but ideally I would be also be going for a 10 month safari in the last century.
My next hunt for buffalo and first for elephant is getting closer. July will eventually get here.
Though my .375 is going along it isn't the primarily weapon, that will be my .416. The H&H's planned use is for everything else, plus being a spare to the Rigby. Ideally I would like 3 or even 4 guns, but ideally I would be also be going for a 10 month safari in the last century.
BBB,
My next hunt for buffalo and first for elephant is getting closer. July will eventually get here.
Sounds like the Elephants and Buffers will be seeing 40 cal of goodness,and everything else 37 cal !
Thats what I would do also!
Your guns ,your choice,your life!
wishing you a good trip!
Bob
