Bear Protection Shotgun

thewoodsrunner said:
Yes, the Lon Paul custom and yes on the bear being wounded by a client. I'd say ol' Phil had a charmed day that day. Sorry to be dense, i'm not sure what you mean by posting the link. If you mean online, i have the magazine hard-copy. Dunno if the article exists online or not.
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What magazine and edition was it? I’m trying to find it in my stash. lol.
 
ThatGuy said:
Jeepers, fellas. Such hostility...

The problem is that a number of things are all true at the same time, and some of those truths work against each other at the extremes:

Slower bullets out-penetrate faster bullets, sturdier bullets out-penetrate softer bullets, bullets with more energy out-penetrate bullets with less energy, softer bullets create better wound profiles, harder bullets create deeper wound profiles, etc, etc.

You can play the same game with external ballistics as well.

A rifle bullet that penetrates 30 or 40 inches but creates a calibre-sized wound channel is a terrible bear defense round (for obvious reasons); likewise a bullet that creates a 12 inch wide wound channel 3 inches deep (again, for obvious reasons).

Research from Fackler suggests that 12ga slugs penetrate reasonably well, although (interestingly) not with nearly as much penetration as that from a 170gr .30-30 Win (Fackler, again). Furthermore, rifled slugs do not expand well, if at all, and as they're moving at not much more than pistol-bullet speeds, they produce very narrow wound channels (~.70 Cal), albeit very deep ones.

But put all the terminal ballistics nerdery aside for a moment to examine the platform itself: you would be hard pressed to find a more appropriate short-range defensive weapon than a pump action 12ga (or a good semi). Cheap, reliable, easy to maintain, easy to procure ammo for, easy to operate, easy to train with, easy to find safe venues to train at, light, compact, reasonably high capacity ... The list goes on.

At the end of the day, a defensive weapon, from the perspective of the user, needs to be accessible, reliable, capable of being used confidently and competently, and reasonably adequate for it's purposes in a terminal-ballistics sense. Like any other firearm, if you choose a projectile that creates a broad and deep enough wound channel, and superimpose that wound channel over a part of the target's anatomy that is essential to the target's health and wellbeing, then you will have succeeded.

The 12ga shotgun is more than adequate for bear defense. There are many other weapons that are also adequate.

And now no one needs to be touchy about the subject.
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Seeking to understand here. My current understanding is that a 400 grain bullet travelling at 2700fps will out penetrate a 400 grain bullet travelling at 2200fpm. I think this because the faster bullet has more energy than the slower bullet. All other things being equal.
 
mark2015 said:
Seeking to understand here. My current understanding is that a 400 grain bullet travelling at 2700fps will out penetrate a 400 grain bullet travelling at 2200fpm. I think this because the faster bullet has more energy than the slower bullet. All other things being equal.
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Depends on the construction of the bullet. An expanding bullet increases in diameter when it hits something. Higher velocity typically means a larger increase in diameter, which reduces penetration.

Expanding bullets also loose weight upon impact which reduces penetration. Some bullets don't lose much weight - monometals in particular tend to have very high weight retention, as do some designs like Swift A-frames - but a lot of premium bullets still shed like 25-40% of their weight even if they're bonded.
 
Here’s how the conversation started for me. I hunt the mid-Ontario to lower north big woods for whitetails. I’m also scouting whitetails in Muskoka. The terrain we hunt in either WMU ranges from open shooting lanes of about 100 yards, in some places up to 200 yards and dense cover with shots about 50 yards or under.

My buddy suggested bringing two guns along on the ATV to the stands and picking the flat trajectory shooter in open areas or bush-smashing rounds in denser areas. He has a .243 and 30-06 for open woods and a 30-30 for the dense bush. I agreed. I like 30-06 and have mine set up with a 2.5-10X quick acquisition reticle scope.

My outfitter and his right-hand man like bear meat. We get happen-upon bears in November, and I don’t mind sharing game meat. I also meet happen-upon grumpy boars and sows with cubs in Muskoka in spring while scouting whitetails as it’s heavily populated. I take appropriate precautions, including bear spray because nobody wants to shoot a sow with cubs.

A shotgun is excellent for close range, quick, handy and packs a lot of power, if needed to defend or take a good eater in fall in the dense growth. A Winchester Defender SXP 18.5” 12 gauge with Federal Deep Penetrators should do me fine. The 30-06 is good for open spots and will do the job. Dual purpose for whitetails and bears. The 30-06 is filled with bonded bullets or monoliths to cover both jobs.

My chances of being attacked by a black bear compared to a grizzly in Ontario are 100% greater. Go figure. So, here’s the thread I opened on the hunting forum. Please help me understand this.

I'd like the MNRF and COs to answer this question, considering this revealing statistic and problem:

"Rate of fire is another criterion that isn’t on most hunters’ radar. Statistics vary, but most police officers don’t exceed a 50% hit rate. Even if you train regularly, you might not hit a bear on your first, second, or third shots, especially if the bear is charging. “If you think you’re gonna go out and shoot a moving target with 100% accuracy, you’re one brick short of a full wheelbarrow,” said MeatEater’s Clay Newcomb."

Reference the article "The Best Bear-Defense Guns and Cartridges"


https://www.themeateater.com/gear/g...tridges?rbid=da06c7bdabd14ad86998d4c0cdb3ac0d

Thanks for all the input on this. I didn't expect that volume of response so quickly. Its truly appreciated. Ontario is terrible. Or maybe Ontario is weird. It is three rounds for a shotgun regardless of game in Ontario. Why I asked is I'm scouting an area for whitetail in the spring heavily occupied by black bear. I've had encounters. Most of them escape if you keep an eye but encounters with ornery boars who are hungry and sows with cubs are common. If they're startled, they can be dangerous. Nobody wants to kill a sow with cubs. I'll be in an open season WMU and I carry bear spray plus other precautions. If it's a last resort, I'll justify it to the CO after. The usual glib answer is "carry a rifle." Well the shotty is quicker, lighter, I'm better with it and the slugs at close range are a stopper. I wrote the MNRF. I'll let you know what the answer is.

I'm adding thoughts that come up. Here's another good reason I like a shotgun for the area I'll be hunting bears. Increased danger from range of the projectile from a rifle compared to a shotgun. I'm acutely aware of "know your target and your backstop." I pay attention to my shooting lane, direction and anticipate what lies beyond. When hunting areas with wilderness homes/cottages or party hunting in dense cover, ricochets are a possibility to consider, and I believe a heavy slug is less likely to bounce off a branch and generally not carry as far as a high velocity rifle round.

That's why we have some controlled hunts limited to shotguns, muzzle loaders and bows, only, right? In the USA there are several "straight wall projectile states" for the same reasons. Please correct me if I'm wrong. So, in an aggressive bear encounter, like hunting down a wounded animal in dense cover that I have an obligation to retrieve, why is my government limiting me to a potential to miss or only hit with one round, increasing risk? How many rounds do rural police and COs shuck into the tube of their 12 Ga to euthanize bears hit by cars?
 
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