10/22 / PPSh Conversion - Updated Jan 8 **PICS
- Thread starter skirsons
- Start date
Some considerations about heat shields and mags:
You can hold a short gun by the shield, but not only.
That was the original intended purpose,
but you could hold it in many ways.
For the best controllability, holding it by the shield is the easiest.
There are quite a few SMG’s from that era that had shields
(Bergmann’s, Carl Gustav’s, Lahti’s, Suomis, Russian PP series and a lot others).
This one is of the many types of Bergmann’s:
ID-ing some SMGs from that era may be a little confusing.
Some of the most known Russian SM
PPD (PPD-34, PPD-34/38, PPD-40) (Deghtyarev),
variant/copy of Bergmann MP-28 (Schmeisser),
could be held by the wood stock in the back of the drum (difficult),
where it had inlets in the wood to facilitate the grip,
by the wood in the front of the drum, or by the shield.
The mag was a close copy of the Suomi drum,
to this day arguably the best drum.
Suomi mag:
PPSh-41 (Shpagin) could be held the easiest by the shield.
The drum was the same mag used by PPD-40.
PPSh shield was quite complex and a very fine example of combination
muzzle brake / anti-climb compensator / gas booster.
PPSh shield had few variants concerning the holes’ size/shape,
round or semi-square tube, shape of the front area, or sight.
PPS- 42/43 (Sudaev) could be held by the stock
behind the mag (difficult), or by the shield.
PPS had a protruding muzzle brake and anti-climb compensator.
The original Russian PPS could not use PPD or PPSh drums.
It had its own dedicated banana mag.
It had an interesting over-the-top folding stock.
As a life-long student of the AK underfolders,
I can say that the PPS over-the-top folder
makes me think that the Russians went thru the pain
of experimenting with few designs, they didn’t just
blindly copy the German MP folder.
The Finnish made a copy in 9mm (M/44),
that could use the drum from M/31 Suomi and few other mags.
Few years later, the mag housing of the M/44 was modified
to also accept Swedish mags from Carl Gustav SMG
in addition to all other mags it could take.
To make matters even more complicated,
the Finns had their own philosophy concerning
shields and muzzlebrakes/compensators on SMG’s.
They often said that compensators work
only on shorties and don’t do fcuk-all on
long barrels (kind of true).
From left
-KP/-31,
-KP/-31 SJR with compensator,
-Korsu-Suomi (the vacuum-cleaner like nozzle was for
for gas disposal when firing from enclosed spaces as bunkers),
-Tank-Suomi,
-and Barrel Unit SS-II, that is a silenced variation of model 1995.
You can hold a short gun by the shield, but not only.
That was the original intended purpose,
but you could hold it in many ways.
For the best controllability, holding it by the shield is the easiest.
There are quite a few SMG’s from that era that had shields
(Bergmann’s, Carl Gustav’s, Lahti’s, Suomis, Russian PP series and a lot others).
This one is of the many types of Bergmann’s:
ID-ing some SMGs from that era may be a little confusing.
Some of the most known Russian SM
PPD (PPD-34, PPD-34/38, PPD-40) (Deghtyarev),
variant/copy of Bergmann MP-28 (Schmeisser),
could be held by the wood stock in the back of the drum (difficult),
where it had inlets in the wood to facilitate the grip,
by the wood in the front of the drum, or by the shield.
The mag was a close copy of the Suomi drum,
to this day arguably the best drum.
Suomi mag:
PPSh-41 (Shpagin) could be held the easiest by the shield.
The drum was the same mag used by PPD-40.
PPSh shield was quite complex and a very fine example of combination
muzzle brake / anti-climb compensator / gas booster.
PPSh shield had few variants concerning the holes’ size/shape,
round or semi-square tube, shape of the front area, or sight.
PPS- 42/43 (Sudaev) could be held by the stock
behind the mag (difficult), or by the shield.
PPS had a protruding muzzle brake and anti-climb compensator.
The original Russian PPS could not use PPD or PPSh drums.
It had its own dedicated banana mag.
It had an interesting over-the-top folding stock.
As a life-long student of the AK underfolders,
I can say that the PPS over-the-top folder
makes me think that the Russians went thru the pain
of experimenting with few designs, they didn’t just
blindly copy the German MP folder.
The Finnish made a copy in 9mm (M/44),
that could use the drum from M/31 Suomi and few other mags.
Few years later, the mag housing of the M/44 was modified
to also accept Swedish mags from Carl Gustav SMG
in addition to all other mags it could take.
To make matters even more complicated,
the Finns had their own philosophy concerning
shields and muzzlebrakes/compensators on SMG’s.
They often said that compensators work
only on shorties and don’t do fcuk-all on
long barrels (kind of true).
From left
-KP/-31,
-KP/-31 SJR with compensator,
-Korsu-Suomi (the vacuum-cleaner like nozzle was for
for gas disposal when firing from enclosed spaces as bunkers),
-Tank-Suomi,
-and Barrel Unit SS-II, that is a silenced variation of model 1995.
Last edited:
- Location
- on the road again
That made it pretty clear, but I still don't understand how that would work as a anti-climb compensator. That front surface from the picture would push the muzzle up, not down. In my opinion the slope is upside down.
PPSh shield was quite complex and a very fine example of combination
muzzle brake / anti-climb compensator / gas booster.
PPSh shield had few variants concerning the holes’ size/shape,
round or semi-square tube, shape of the front area, or sight.
I think the theory is: The gasses strike the INSIDE of the slope, driving the muzzle down. Note the short barrel inside the 'gas deflector'.
Last edited:
- Location
- on the road again
i think you are right. Thanks
Dr. Lector,
Between this thread and the huge PM you sent me, you've put a lot of work into helping me out, in vain as it might be!
If you think I made that heat shield you are misoverestimating me. I bought that - it's a tacshot shotgun heat shield. I cut it to get it to fit right and formed it over the barrel, but that's it.
By the way if anyone has any of those I need 2 more I think. One for the bottom of the barrel and another to fit between the top shroud and the receiver to cover up that plastic handguard.
Between this thread and the huge PM you sent me, you've put a lot of work into helping me out, in vain as it might be!
If you think I made that heat shield you are misoverestimating me. I bought that - it's a tacshot shotgun heat shield. I cut it to get it to fit right and formed it over the barrel, but that's it.
By the way if anyone has any of those I need 2 more I think. One for the bottom of the barrel and another to fit between the top shroud and the receiver to cover up that plastic handguard.
- Location
- on the road again
I think I get the anti-climb compensator now. It is like this one here.
In Lector's picture the top hole is not so visible.
Skirsons, as one who knows who Lector is, i can say he recognizes talent at first sight
You have a nice project there. Keep up the good work.
In Lector's picture the top hole is not so visible.
Skirsons, as one who knows who Lector is, i can say he recognizes talent at first sight
You have a nice project there. Keep up the good work.
22ShortImproved, I can't really recognize talent "on sight",
but in the case of member Skirsons, the talent is very obvious.
In his thread last winter about some of his projects,
I remember looking at a M1 Carbine asking myself
WTF is so special about that gun that makes it a "project",
when I realized I was looking at a 10/22 dressed like M1 Carbine.
Nice come-back on the compensator comments
With your knowledge and your access to tech data
you should know better because you already know these things
BTW, your drawing has the wrong name, that's not a modified Alton,
that's a version of a Hannex design adapted for
short barrel cannons on armoured vechicles.
Welcome back, man
I'll be back with some pix later.
but in the case of member Skirsons, the talent is very obvious.
In his thread last winter about some of his projects,
I remember looking at a M1 Carbine asking myself
WTF is so special about that gun that makes it a "project",
when I realized I was looking at a 10/22 dressed like M1 Carbine.
Nice come-back on the compensator comments
With your knowledge and your access to tech data
you should know better because you already know these things
BTW, your drawing has the wrong name, that's not a modified Alton,
that's a version of a Hannex design adapted for
short barrel cannons on armoured vechicles.
Welcome back, man
I'll be back with some pix later.
Last edited:
Skirsons, I didn't really help you.
I was yaping around, but you did the work.
I think I have even bothered you.
However, the SMGs from that era are a subject
that I take seriously and I pointed some similarities and differences.
I am not a milsurp buff, I don't even want to be,
but, IMO, those particular guns speak real history,
(unlike stupid Enfields and idiotic Garands).
Here are some pics courtesy of a friend of mine:
a 10/22 mag compared to the PPSh mag.
This particular 10/22 mag is made by ProMag.
I was yaping around, but you did the work.
I think I have even bothered you.
However, the SMGs from that era are a subject
that I take seriously and I pointed some similarities and differences.
I am not a milsurp buff, I don't even want to be,
but, IMO, those particular guns speak real history,
(unlike stupid Enfields and idiotic Garands).
Here are some pics courtesy of a friend of mine:
a 10/22 mag compared to the PPSh mag.
This particular 10/22 mag is made by ProMag.
Last edited:
Wow, the sizes of those mags are quite similar. I think I might make my own like you suggested. That's the only way to get it to sit up where it should be.
I've updated the pics thanks to your help and encouragement I think I'm going to try to take this project all the way.
(see first post for new pics)
I've updated the pics thanks to your help and encouragement I think I'm going to try to take this project all the way.
(see first post for new pics)
It started to really look like its momma. I like it a lot.
I was expecting the moment when you started to see the light, bro.
That's the way to achieve the correct distance
between the mag and the receiver.
Also, if I was you,
I would use the receiver hold-down hole and the screw to attach
the heatshield you've made and additional sheet metal
to replicate the look of the real one.
I hope you will find the shape of that particular area
in the pix in the links I've send to you.
Last edited:
The receiver hold-down screw isn't threaded all the way. I've had to use a substitute but it's kind of wiggly in there. There should still be plenty of support though. I plan to use a barrel band around the shield with a sling swivel and I'm going to cut another scope rail so it hangs over a little more and will hold down the top heat shield which I'm still waiting for in the mail.
How do you plan to hold the receiver in the stock?
Thru the trigger group holes? Like this?
http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217569&page=1
I know you don't have the jig
(the jig wouldn't even work on your stock)
but very carefull measurements would locate
the right place for the holes.
Re-fitting might be necessary after that
(sanding of the wood stock inlet).
Thru the trigger group holes? Like this?
http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217569&page=1
I know you don't have the jig
(the jig wouldn't even work on your stock)
but very carefull measurements would locate
the right place for the holes.
Re-fitting might be necessary after that
(sanding of the wood stock inlet).
Last edited:
I will carefully drill through... undersize then dremel for the correct size and placement and use nuts with bolts and washers... not the most esthetically pleasing but that's my means. I will shellac over them for that russian look.
Good idea.
Don't touch the holes in the receiver
when you drill/dremel.
I hope your next project will be Suomi M/31.
It has wood in front of the mag, so it will satisfy RobertMcC,
and it's easier to hold the receiver in the stock
but you will probably have to use splints to reinforce the stock
above the notch for the mag.
