The IWI Carmel: Initial Thoughts and Observations **Range Report added on post #48**

[Painkillers]

This is quite simply the only answer.

No. Give us back our AR's is the only real answer. Both the Makasi and the Carmel are cope guns in comparison. I can't decide which I hate the least, that is the dilemma. It's as though it were last call and all the honey's are spoken for, pickin's are are few and far from slim and I have to choose who I'm going home with. The Bad, or the Ugly?

 

[spectrality]

Just got back from the range. Here are some more loads i shot today with the Carmel. Looks like for me personally, i will be using S&B 55gr Ball for general use and S&B Precision 69gr for distance. Will play with the Remington one a little more as well i think. This time, i shot 10 round groups, the most promising loads were shot 2 groups of 10 just to get more actual data and determine consistency. Please consider there was quite chilly today and about 18km/h wind, you can see weather on each report card.

 

[spectrality]

Here is the second batch:






And this is the setup:

 

[True Shadows]

Just got back from the range. Here are some more loads i shot today with the Carmel. Looks like for me personally, i will be using S&B 55gr Ball for general use and S&B Precision 69gr for distance. Will play with the Remington one a little more as well i think. This time, i shot 10 round groups, the most promising loads were shot 2 groups of 10 just to get more actual data and determine consistency. Please consider there was quite chilly today and about 18km/h wind, you can see weather on each report card.


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Do you have any PMC X-TAC 55gr 5.56 to test?

I took my Carmel to the range today and it shot under 1" at 50 yards with it. 62gr PMC was significantly worse.

 

[sprint]

No. Give us back our AR's is the only real answer. Both the Makasi and the Carmel are cope guns in comparison. I can't decide which I hate the least, that is the dilemma. It's as though it were last call and all the honey's are spoken for, pickin's are are few and far from slim and I have to choose who I'm going home with. The Bad, or the Ugly?
View attachment 1238996

I’d honestly buy the IWI Carmel regardless
I’m a gun nut after all.

But semantics aside, if it came down to only owning one rifle in a country where you could shop the entire market?

I’d have and AR or an AK and call it a day

 

[spectrality]

Do you have any PMC X-TAC 55gr 5.56 to test?

I took my Carmel to the range today and it shot under 1" at 50 yards with it. 62gr PMC was significantly worse.

No i don't, but will definitely pick up couple of boxes for the next trip

 

[spectrality]

Do you have any PMC X-TAC 55gr 5.56 to test?

I took my Carmel to the range today and it shot under 1" at 50 yards with it. 62gr PMC was significantly worse.

Highly recommend you try the S&B 55gr, at 50 it should go all in one hole from what i see, when i was zeroing the rifle at 20 meters it was one hole for 15 rounds

 

[True Shadows]

Had a blast today with my Carmel. Yes she's a little thick... but even thick bishes need loving

Was surprisingly accurate and the trigger is very nice. Functioned perfectly with 10/20 steel mags.

Very impressed.

 

[ZeusDragon]

I do not have the detailed info like @spectrality provided but got the Carmel out to the range yesterday and was pleasantly surprised with the accuracy. Shot 4 different factory loads and 3 of them came in at or below 2 MOA for 10-shot groups. I know - nothing spectacular - but I think people expecting 1-1.5 MOA out of a rifle like this for any significant grouping (not 3 or 5) are living in a fantasy world.

The factory ammo:
Federal TRU 64gr (2.4) [odd result here usually pretty accurate for me in other 223/556 rifles]
XTAC M855 62gr (2.0)
Federal Fusion 62gr (1.7)
Frontier 75gr (1.5)

Basically this is right in line with the Alcor for me very slightly better and definitely better than the X95 (2.5ish MOA) and the Tavor 7 which was the worst gun I've ever owned. Not as accurate as the Raven with exception of the Frontier ammo. I also did not shoot these slowly or with the same type of attention and focus as I do with a bolt action.

Other thoughts on the rifle - yes she's a chonk but everything feels very nice and robust. Not a single issue worked great with both Cross 10/10 mags and LAR-15 mags.

 

[rugbydave]

I do not have the detailed info like @spectrality provided but got the Carmel out to the range yesterday and was pleasantly surprised with the accuracy. Shot 4 different factory loads and 3 of them came in at or below 2 MOA for 10-shot groups. I know - nothing spectacular - but I think people expecting 1-1.5 MOA out of a rifle like this for any significant grouping (not 3 or 5) are living in a fantasy world.

The factory ammo:
Federal TRU 64gr (2.4) [odd result here usually pretty accurate for me in other 223/556 rifles]
XTAC M855 62gr (2.0)
Federal Fusion 62gr (1.7)
Frontier 75gr (1.5)

Basically this is right in line with the Alcor for me very slightly better and definitely better than the X95 (2.5ish MOA) and the Tavor 7 which was the worst gun I've ever owned. Not as accurate as the Raven with exception of the Frontier ammo. I also did not shoot these slowly or with the same type of attention and focus as I do with a bolt action.

Other thoughts on the rifle - yes she's a chonk but everything feels very nice and robust. Not a single issue worked great with both Cross 10/10 mags and LAR-15 mags.

1.5 moa out of Frontier 75gr is great. I've found that ammo tends to shoot well in most 1:7tw carbines and I use the same bullet (Hornady 75gr BTHP) in my handloads.

I also got similar precision out of the Alcor I shot but I found it suffered quite heavily from a wandering point of impact. Have you found that to be the case as well? Also agree on the X95 having uninspiring levels of precision. Despite the 1:7tw barrel they always seem to shoot 55 and 62gr ammo better than match 75/77gr ammo.

 

[spectrality]

Despite the 1:7tw barrel they always seem to shoot 55 and 62gr ammo better than match 75/77gr ammo.

This is exactly my observation as well after running pretty much any available 75 and 77gr match load through it

 

[Sniffer]

1.5 moa out of Frontier 75gr is great. I've found that ammo tends to shoot well in most 1:7tw carbines and I use the same bullet (Hornady 75gr BTHP) in my handloads.

I also ot similar precision out of the Alcor I shot but I found it suffered quite heavily from a wandering point of impact. Have you found that to be the case as well? Also agree on the X95 having uninspiring levels of precision. Despite the 1:7tw barrel they always seem to shoot 55 and 62gr ammo better than match 75/77gr ammo.

The X95 is an enigma of a gun.

They are really well built and have some unique design advantages (compact, weight more at the rear which I prefer, reliable, pretty easy to work on etc etc) but they are on the heavy side (which is negated a little by the weight at the rear like I mentioned before), have a bit more height over bore than some guns and as you say they do not react as you would expect with various ammo.

I found heavy loads that worked and light loads that worked but being 1:7 twist it should have gotten better at the upper end of the spectrum however you could never say for sure like most guns.

Having said all that I miss shooting my friends X95.

 

[rugbydave]

The X95 is an enigma of a gun.

They are really well built and have some unique design advantages (compact, weight more at the rear which I prefer, reliable, pretty easy to work on etc etc) but they are on the heavy side (which is negated a little by the weight at the rear like I mentioned before), have a bit more height over bore than some guns and as you say they do not react as you would expect with various ammo.

I found heavy loads that worked and light loads that worked but being 1:7 twist it should have gotten better at the upper end of the spectrum however you could never say for sure like most guns.

Having said all that I miss shooting my friends X95.

Yeah, it is strange. the one I was shooting had most of the precision mods on it as well: Geissele trigger and free-floated mlok handguard and still really under-performed with match ammo. Still a nice practical rifle for what it was intended for but not really something you can easily mod to make it more of a precision platform like you can with AR pattern rifles.

 

[Nick3052]

Has anybody found any wobble between their upper and lower on their carmel? Mine has some

 

[ZeusDragon]

1.5 moa out of Frontier 75gr is great. I've found that ammo tends to shoot well in most 1:7tw carbines and I use the same bullet (Hornady 75gr BTHP) in my handloads.

I also ot similar precision out of the Alcor I shot but I found it suffered quite heavily from a wandering point of impact. Have you found that to be the case as well? Also agree on the X95 having uninspiring levels of precision. Despite the 1:7tw barrel they always seem to shoot 55 and 62gr ammo better than match 75/77gr ammo.

I've only had the Alcor, which is the new Kodiak Edition 223 Wylde version, out to the range twice and both times it was wearing different optics so I can't really speak to any wandering zero. Will take note of it though next time it finds itself at the range to see if it held zero from this last trip to the range and if it keeps zero throughout the session.

 

[Epoxy7]

Great thread.

As shown by a few 1.5-2 moa which is what I would expect with high end ammo it likes. Even though it’s hammer forged, it’s a thin pencil chrome lined barrel attached to a piston gas system. Which brings us to 18.6” non restricted barrels. Added barrel whip and gas system is likely a carbine length. Which induces harmonics and barrel whip. Heat wil open the groups up fast too.

Some of the accuracy expectations I think come from rifles like The old PE90 and the SL8. Bothhad heavier barrels than the caramel . Along with top grade quality. Plus The Swiss was around $4k pre covid dollars ( about double in today’s liberal inflation dollars). The SL8 was about the same price as the caramel but again pre Liberal Covid dollars. Plus it was designed as a civilian target orientated version. Non chrome lined heavy barrels.

Then of course there is the AR system. What spoils most off us for accuracy is the AR. A $750 or so Norinco, changed to a free float handguard and upgraded trigger could shoot 1 moa, 5 round groups when benched. Despite the BBQ paint finish, those hammer forged barrels shot very well, especially in a DI system. But for better or worse you missed out on the piston system and of course it’s not an option today.

I’m liking the caramel for a red dot carbine setup or a 1-6, maybe 1-8 optics. 1.5-2 MOA is accurate enough for magnified plinking. And is still fun. The Tavor was a lot of fun shooting clay out in the 100 and 200 range. See how many pieces you could get before they got too small. Yes the Caramel seems to pretty much be a Tavor like system only in a conventional setup.

Anyways great thread.,Makes me want to buy one. Or at least live vicariously by reading this thread!