Custom Actions

Wanted to say that Dennis Sorensen has done good work for me at a reasonable price. Don't want to rise to the silly "backyard" stuff.
On the other hand, it doesn't make alot of sense to me to buy an action then have to do lots of expensive stuff to it to make it work, with one exception. If a guy likes to do that kind of thing then it makes sense to me. There is something to be said for making a silk purse out of a sows ear or repairing a fault and not getting rid of a rifle.:D I can see changing triggers and bedding it too. But basically the action should do the job right out of the box as far as I am concerned. Sounds like a custom action will in precision accuracy circles, and a Remington action won't without alot of work. I have owned 4 Remington rifles and shot two of them off hand for a number of years. All four shot well (MOA) and consistently so. Two of them improved a bit with rebarreling. I wouldn't think of trying to make a benchrest rifle out of any of them. Reason I am enjoying playing around with my Steven's action right now is that nothing has been done to the action. Put a barrel on it, that's all, and it will shoot well enough for what I am going to use it for.
 
Marksmen said:
So your advise is to get an action from an old remington 700 send it to Dennis or who ever and get done. Then sell all my custom actions on ebay? What is your point? Well That isn't my rifle dream! Well my warning covers the point that a accurized action is not a custom action never will be and if so, why did the army go for a Timber wolf and not an accurized remington.
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What are my points?

If you re read some of my earlier posts you will find I prefer the Bat action for a pure benchrest application.

Do believe a blueprinted Remington holds all of the practical accuracy required to be competitive at 1000 yards...Yes!

Does a benchrest action help getting off a quick shot string in a benchrest competition.....Yes!

Do I believe you would be a better shot if you spent your money on bullets instead of custom actions...YES!

Marksmen said:
...... Remember you are cutting away metal and Some cases case hardened metal aswell. An accurized Remington will wear out faster and has very little resale value.
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Sorry........I call this BS.
 
Occasionally I see something on these boards which makes it extremely difficult for me to keep from simply posting "what a load of crap". Marksmen's posts are a classic example.
Made of better materials? Give your head a shake. Virtually all, production or custom, use similar materials. Custom actions are "heat treated and hardened". Do you think production actions are not? Most custom BR actions are quite soft since it is accepted procedure to heat treat prior to final machining. Hence the problems with galling of the locking lugs (stainless has always been problematic in this regard). Barnards and RPAs (neither of which is recognized as a popular BR action in North America) are exceptions and are hard. These actions must be ground to final dimensions. All that I have checked were perfectly straight and concentric and yes, guys, I am capable of accurately checking and, if need be, correcting, an action.
My understanding is that Greg Tannel does good work. He uses common machine shop fixturing methods and his methods are sound. They are much the same as many people had been using prior to Tannel's adoption of them. Such fixtures and set up techniques have been in use in industry since before any of us were born.
Now, as to whether there is a demonstrable improvement subsequent to the truing of a Remington or any other action is hard to say. It's hard to say simply because nobody I'm aware of has done any scientific testing to demonstrate such improvement (or not). I would not be surprised to learn that such testing had been done by some one like Sam Wilson back in the 1950's but I've not heard of it.
The use of Remingtons or any other factory actions has largely fallen by the wayside but this is related as much to the different face of BR today as anything else. There are fewer experimenters shooting short range BR than in the past. In addition most prefer to own custom actions. There is nothing wrong with pride of ownership but there is also nothing wrong with experimentation.
I'm pretty sure Dennis built his first BR rifles back in the early seventies (he's much older than I!). Like everyone who posesses an open mind, his methods and results have changed and improved over the years. I do things differently now than I did 30 years ago. So does any other gunsmith who seeks to improve his product and his knowledge. Nonetheless, neither Dennis nor I will try to tell you that you are as well off with a trued Remington as with a Bat or Nesika Bay. We will tell you that it is a viable alternative which can work out just fine.
In the final analysis, todays custom actions are better than have ever been available before but at the cost of them, they should be. The Remington action is still a viable choice for the man who wants to do his own accurizing or who has the action on hand and doesn't want or can't afford to cough up the 1500.00+ for admission into the elite custom action club. Will the rifle be worth as much? Probably not but it might shoot as well as most. Maybe even better than most. It will at least give the shooter a place to start and not a bad place either. Regards, Bill.
 
X-fan said:
What are my points?

If you re read some of my earlier posts you will find I prefer the Bat action for a pure benchrest application.

Do believe a blueprinted Remington holds all of the practical accuracy required to be competitive at 1000 yards...Yes!

Does a benchrest action help getting off a quick shot string in a benchrest competition.....Yes!

Do I believe you would be a better shot if you spent your money on bullets instead of custom actions...YES!



Sorry........I call this BS.
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I sent all day screwing around with new Remington action. I did do some accurizing on it. Really it was a piece of crap( it was brand new 338 lapua). The bolt was OK. Will it shoot oh it will guarantee it will. But it is no Timber Wolf. I have accurized actions. Have YOU?
 
Leeper said:
Occasionally I see something on these boards which makes it extremely difficult for me to keep from simply posting "what a load of crap". Marksmen's posts are a classic example.
Made of better materials? Give your head a shake. Virtually all, production or custom, use similar materials. Custom actions are "heat treated and hardened". Do you think production actions are not? Most custom BR actions are quite soft since it is accepted procedure to heat treat prior to final machining. Hence the problems with galling of the locking lugs (stainless has always been problematic in this regard). Barnards and RPAs (neither of which is recognized as a popular BR action in North America) are exceptions and are hard. These actions must be ground to final dimensions. All that I have checked were perfectly straight and concentric and yes, guys, I am capable of accurately checking and, if need be, correcting, an action.
My understanding is that Greg Tannel does good work. He uses common machine shop fixturing methods and his methods are sound. They are much the same as many people had been using prior to Tannel's adoption of them. Such fixtures and set up techniques have been in use in industry since before any of us were born.
Now, as to whether there is a demonstrable improvement subsequent to the truing of a Remington or any other action is hard to say. It's hard to say simply because nobody I'm aware of has done any scientific testing to demonstrate such improvement (or not). I would not be surprised to learn that such testing had been done by some one like Sam Wilson back in the 1950's but I've not heard of it.
The use of Remingtons or any other factory actions has largely fallen by the wayside but this is related as much to the different face of BR today as anything else. There are fewer experimenters shooting short range BR than in the past. In addition most prefer to own custom actions. There is nothing wrong with pride of ownership but there is also nothing wrong with experimentation.
I'm pretty sure Dennis built his first BR rifles back in the early seventies (he's much older than I!). Like everyone who posesses an open mind, his methods and results have changed and improved over the years. I do things differently now than I did 30 years ago. So does any other gunsmith who seeks to improve his product and his knowledge. Nonetheless, neither Dennis nor I will try to tell you that you are as well off with a trued Remington as with a Bat or Nesika Bay. We will tell you that it is a viable alternative which can work out just fine.
In the final analysis, todays custom actions are better than have ever been available before but at the cost of them, they should be. The Remington action is still a viable choice for the man who wants to do his own accurizing or who has the action on hand and doesn't want or can't afford to cough up the 1500.00+ for admission into the elite custom action club. Will the rifle be worth as much? Probably not but it might shoot as well as most. Maybe even better than most. It will at least give the shooter a place to start and not a bad place either. Regards, Bill.
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A place to start, then get a custom action. really That my point Bill whats better? Custom or a accurized?
 
What's better depends on your wants more than your needs. A custom action might look nicer and function more smoothly, or it may not. A rifle built on one may be more accurate or it may not. A 1500 dollar action should always be better than a 400 dollar action with 200 dollars worth of work done on it but it is not always so.
I have seen too many custom actioned rifles shoot .4 aggs to think they are always the final answer. In those cases, a trued Remington would certainly have done as well. A custom action is certainly not a necessity to shoot competitively. It's not even a necessity to win. Regards, Bill.
 
peterdobson said:
Sam Adams Gunsmithing recuts thread trues action and bolt face and laps lugs. He has jigs for this.
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Naive question. Does truing the action and recutting threads mean ensuring alignment between the bore and the action? That would be my main concern (not only concern) in going to a gunsmith with an action. It would take an unusual circumstance (pure experimentation or desire to keep the rifle for some reason) to get me to do this, however, because of the lack of certainty of acceptable results mentioned by Bill. Thank you.
 
Sam's work is standard accurarcy work and his rifles have won Canadian Precision Rifle titles, many other matches and are in use by many police forces. I know other top gunsmiths do this work in N. America.

Regards,

Peter
 
peterdobson said:
Sam Adams Gunsmithing recuts thread trues action and bolt face and laps lugs. He has jigs for this.
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Sam Adams - like the name! Anyhow, what you describe is what most gunsmiths do to accurize a Remington. They charge 100-200 for this type of work. If you want to go further you can sleeve the bolt, bush the firing pin, maybe sleeve the whole action to deal with the lack of bedding surface or lack of rigidiity there are other tricks as well. All costs money. You can easily spend 500-600 to bring a Remington on par with a custom. You can see why a custom starts to make fiscal sense.
 
Leeper said:
Most custom BR actions are quite soft since it is accepted procedure to heat treat prior to final machining. Hence the problems with galling of the locking lugs (stainless has always been problematic in this regard). Barnards and RPAs (neither of which is recognized as a popular BR action in North America) are exceptions and are hard. These actions must be ground to final dimensions. Regards, Bill.
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I don't understand this statement (I don't mean it's wrong.). I thought galling occured when rubbing materials too similar in hardness.
 
BCFred, the work you described should help align the barrel with the action. It does not ensure the bolt will stay that way when the sear falls.

As rpollock, just described, you need to consider sleeving the bolt to keep it in place or else it will drop/bounce. As the locking lugs are connected to the bolt body, any movement at the rear of the bolt affects the front. This has been shown to increase group dispersion.

The custom action is simply an evolution of all the hardwork and experimentation of those past BR shooters. The custom action does all the work and tweaks that would normally go into a Rem BEFORE it leaves the shop.

If you look at US costs, the difference in a custom action from some suppliers vs fixing a Rem is very small. As little as $100. So the custom makes excellent economic sense plus it looks SOOOOOO much nicer.

If customs touch $1500+ up here, there certainly is room economically to improve a Rem to match the function of a custom and leave money in the pocket. A real deal if you can do most of the work yourself.

I hope my opinion will not start another firestorm but I feel that the final accuracy of a rifle is in the barrel. The action and all the other bits of a rifle helps extract what potential there is. If the barrel isn't a shooter, no matter the action, stock, bedding, scope, etc will improve that.

Otherwise, we would all live happily with Rem factory pipes on BAT's.

At the top of any shooting sport ALL parts of the rifle matter and if you want the best performance, that will cost money.

For the average shooter looking for 1/4min accuracy and/or on a tighter budget, there are many places I would spend my money before a custom action.

Top line barrels would be where I would make my first investment. Stocks, triggers and optics would be next.

YMMV.

Jerry
 
Custom rifles are usually a poor financial investment no matter who made them. Regards, Bill[/QUOTE]

That is interesting!

Rick, My Swindlehurst's are not for sale, :D:D

Stainless galling?? That is interesting! I have had mine for over 20 years and averaging 3000 to 5000 rounds a year and no galling, of course they are lubed every 20 rounds or so.

Just my thoughts.
Bill
 
mysticplayer said:
Top line barrels would be where I would make my first investment.

Jerry
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Speaking in the context of short range BR or other accuracy contests, not field shooting or casual shooting, I have to disagree here. Many a great barrel has been wasted screwed onto a lousy action. If the action has problems no amount of good barrels, optics etc can overcome it.

Rick
 
Fred,
Similarity in hardness does influence a materials tendency to gall but has less influence as hardness increases. In other words, a piece which is soft and a piece that is softer are no less likely to gall than two equally soft pieces. Similar materials are also more likely to gall than dissimilar ones. The use of a chrome moly bolt in a stainless receiver helps because stainless has a real affinity for itself and tends to stick. When making parts for hydraulic cylinders, great care had to be taken to avoid siezeing threaded parts due to the use of similar steels which were soft. A significant difference in hardness helped but if both pieces were still on the soft side, the problem still existed. Low carbon steel is a sticky material. This is cured by case hardening which gives a hard, high carbon, suface which does not stick.
Bill,
Because you have taken care to keep your lugs lubricated and have probably avoided using ammunition which was tight enough to make closing difficult, you have had no problems with galling. I have seen a whole bunch of BR actions which have. Sometimes as a result of a tight case or forgetting to lube. The stainless actions (especially, it seems, the Halls) are more suseptible than chromoly actions. I've heard numerous curses on the line when somebody felt their new custom action pick up.
I like the concept of the separate bolt head (like the Savage or the Browning A-bolt) for this reason. It is possible to use a different material for the bolt head and the bolt body. This means the head can be made quite hard and/or made of a more wear resistant material. Because the head is a small and not too complex piece, warpage is less a problem. On both of these actions, the bolt body can be made of plain carbon steel. It can be chromed and ground if desired. I made my Remington replacement bolt this way and for the stated reasons. The EN30B bolt head is stronger than chromoly and quite wear resistant. The C1045 body is easily machinable and it was easy to spot harden the cocking and extraction camming surfaces.
It is quite true that custom rifles of most types are a poor investment financially speaking. Just like custom boats, cars, motorcycles or any other "luxury" item. An Al Biesen rifle owned by Joe Smith is likely to be no more valuable than a Super Grade M70 of the same vintage in spite of costing considerably more at the outset. In fact, it may well be worth less. The reason everbody recommends the purchase of a used BR rifle is because it is likely to be valued at less than the total of the component parts. There are exceptions but they are rare. This from a man who likes custom rifles of all types and even makes some now and then. Regards, Bill
 
Leeper said:
Fred,
Similarity in hardness does influence a materials tendency to gall but has less influence as hardness increases. In other words, a piece which is soft and a piece that is softer are no less likely to gall than two equally soft pieces. Similar materials are also more likely to gall than dissimilar ones. The use of a chrome moly bolt in a stainless receiver helps because stainless has a real affinity for itself and tends to stick. When making parts for hydraulic cylinders, great care had to be taken to avoid siezeing threaded parts due to the use of similar steels which were soft. A significant difference in hardness helped but if both pieces were still on the soft side, the problem still existed. Low carbon steel is a sticky material. This is cured by case hardening which gives a hard, high carbon, suface which does not stick.
Bill,
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Thanks for that. It is a problem I have run into with threads on stainless bolts but haven't seen it (missed it?) in my rifles.
 
rpollock said:
Speaking in the context of short range BR or other accuracy contests, not field shooting or casual shooting, I have to disagree here. Many a great barrel has been wasted screwed onto a lousy action. If the action has problems no amount of good barrels, optics etc can overcome it.

Rick
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Were these great barrels taken of said POS action and put on a better one then shoot really well?

That would be a very interesting test- standard rem, blue printed/sleeved rem, custom action with similar barrel thread. Not that hard to conceive as many custom actions are identical outside to a Rem action.

One barrel spun onto each action and shot for accuracy. No changes to the barrel.

Wonder what would happen?

Jerry
 
mysticplayer said:
Were these great barrels taken of said POS action and put on a better one then shoot really well?

That would be a very interesting test- standard rem, blue printed/sleeved rem, custom action with similar barrel thread. Not that hard to conceive as many custom actions are identical outside to a Rem action.

One barrel spun onto each action and shot for accuracy. No changes to the barrel.

Wonder what would happen?

Jerry
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It would be an interesting test. I think it would be pretty hard to quantify a meaningful result I would say, given variables of the different setups and other issues relating to gun handling, pressure tolerance, harmonics, scopes etc. Biggest factor will be the conditions of the day.

BR shooters do set up their rifles to accept barrels off other actions, pretty easy to do in the world of switch barrels, takes about 2 minutes to switch a barrel, some also set them up to run the same brass in several actions or barrels. This is for convenience.

It is no secret that differing harmonics means some barrels will perform better in some actions and the ability to explore this is quite handy in BR.

What is significant, is that once you have an action that really performs you will notice that all of a sudden the barrels you get seem to do better on the whole. These actions you never sell!

Same goes for scopes, but that is another whole thread....
 
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