Bear Spray A Lot Better Than Bullets

[Boomer]

Wouldn't be reaching for a pistol either in canada.

And he missed

Maybe he missed and maybe he didn't. Last time that clip was posted someone said that the bear had been hit but that it was edited out of this version. Can't say from the footage here if it was a miss or not, but in my experiece bears don't always react promptly to live fire intended to drive them off.

 

[Foxer]

Maybe he missed and maybe he didn't.

He missed.

But i like that it was a 'warning shot' into the water in front of the bear after the fact

but in my experiece bears don't always react promptly to live fire intended to drive them off.

They usually exhibit SOME form of indication they were hit - twisting around to the 'pain' or the like. But regardless - the animal shows no sign of being hit and they say he didn't hit - that sure sounds like a miss.

Which doesn't surprise me - there's numerous accounts of bears being driven off without being hit when the gun is discharged at close range. With ears like that the noise in front of the gun must be horrible, not to mention the flash and the smell. Drawing and firing from a moving boat at a charging target with a pistol .. in fairness i think a lot of guys might not hit with their first shot.

 

[Boomer]

Seriously boomer - i've never heard of a single case of anyone being blinded for days, or even hours. In fact - i've never heard of anyone 'blinded' at all - it's hard to see but you still can. And that lasts only a short time.

I think you may be thinking about mace. That's a whole different thing. They symptoms you describe should never happen with pepper spray. Police wouldn't use it if it did. Mace operates on entirely different principles and is far more dangerous to people, but pepper spray doesnt' have that kind of effect that i've ever heard of. The only thing i could think of that might cause that is some sort of anaphylactic reaction due to allergies or something like that.



No, it really isn't designed to do anything of the kind. Again - sounds more like mace. The capiscum simply reacts with the mucous membranes in the eyes, nose and throat/lungs to cause pain and discomfort - no different than if you handle a jalapeno pepper then touch your eye. It will not interfere with the oxygen flow to the lungs in the slightest.



That is often not the case, regardless of range or dose. The bear will often re-engage the person within 5 minutes or so.



Well that's fairly true - it's got to be within the effective range and that's going to be about 20 feet or so. That's aweful damn close.

Perhaps my pal had a allergic reaction to the spray, beats me, but he still has an eye problem. You won't find spray on my belt. As for spray not asphyxiating the bear, go back and reread Shelton's books, he thinks it does. I don't intend to use it, so it makes little difference to me, and this is the answer to your contention that a person short changes himself by refusing to carry spray. You have to be so close to the bear for it to be effective, that should the bear not be knocked down by it, your safety is compromised, where as using a deterrrant or firearm that is effective at longer range is a safer route to follow.

 

[44fordy]

I think if you encounter an aggresive bear, you should call 911.

The police will save you...

 

[Boomer]

He missed.

But i like that it was a 'warning shot' into the water in front of the bear after the fact


They usually exhibit SOME form of indication they were hit - twisting around to the 'pain' or the like. But regardless - the animal shows no sign of being hit and they say he didn't hit - that sure sounds like a miss.

Which doesn't surprise me - there's numerous accounts of bears being driven off without being hit when the gun is discharged at close range. With ears like that the noise in front of the gun must be horrible, not to mention the flash and the smell. Drawing and firing from a moving boat at a charging target with a pistol .. in fairness i think a lot of guys might not hit with their first shot.

When a bear immediatrely turns 180 degrees from a committed attack, that is an indication that something has happened to it. I have driven off bears with live fire with shotguns, handguns, and rifles of various sizes, and in almost every case the bear moved off reluctantly, rather than bolting. Maybe polar bears are just hard of hearing.

 

[bone-collector]

I think if you encounter an aggresive bear, you should call 911.

The police will save you...

if I had 911 in my area I would call it on this thread!

 

[Foxer]

As for spray not asphyxiating the bear, go back and reread Shelton's books, he thinks it does.

I don't recall anything in shelton's books saying the spray asphyxiates the bear. At best it might make breathing painful.

And in all the hundreds of cases, there's not one case of the bear 'dropping' as you suggest, they all turn tail and run.

Further - if the way it worked was to choke off air supply (asphyxiation) you'd be dead every time - a bear can go without oxygen for quite a while before dropping, certanly long enough to get the 'job' done on someone he's charging.

And further still - we know it doesn't work like that on humans at all. Police don't use it because it causes the person to drop due to any sort of lack of oxygen.

This is essentially concentrated cayenne pepper. It does the same thing to you as if you ate a very very hot pepper - it causes intense pain and causes the mucus membranes to water agressively. On a bear that affects their sense of smell and their vision (hard to see when your eyes' are burning and watering, and it's also harder to smell). It also causes intense pain. This causes the bear to break off and figure out what the hell is going on and makes it harder for the bear to figure out where you are and what threats are in the area. It doesn't even know why it hurts, and its' probably never hurt quite like that before. That is why it works. It doesn't actually physically disable the bear at all. It isn't a neurotoxin or anything that would affect neurological functions in the eye or lung.

At no time will the bear be in any danger of passing out!

Perhaps my pal had a allergic reaction to the spray, beats me, but he still has an eye problem.

Well that's entirely possible - you can kill someone with a peanut if they're allergic after all and that effect can take days to wear off without medical treatment for the allergic reaction.

But i must say that's very rare, and it's not hard to test before you carry spray. Anyone who's allergic to capsicum of course should not consider this type of defense, it could easily be very dangerous to them even if it were to go off by accident.

When a bear immediatrely turns 180 degrees from a committed attack, that is an indication that something has happened to it.

I have to tell you - that is not true in many cases for black or grizzly bears. I know this from both personal experience and numerous documented incidents. If the bear is any kind of distance from you that can very easily be true, but close in i've seen a bear slinky and twist like it had been slapped in the face with a bat and swap ends and run like the demons of hell were chasing it. That would have been about 15 - 20 yards. There are also several stories of bears attacking someone and being driven off by another person with a gun firing into the air because they couldn't fire at the bear without risking hitting the person - the bears in those cases also took off at warp 10. There is another well documented case of a ranger firing his pistol at a charging griz and having it swap ends and blast off, he THOUGH he must have hit it, but the bear was tranquilized and found not to have a single mark on it. (rather embarrassing for him, it was near 'point blank' range.)

My guess is the range the bear is plays a large role. I would guess that being closer to the muzzle blast would make it more likely for an animal to be 'scared' off by it. Just a theory but obviously it makes sense that the blast from a gun a 100 yards is less than it would be at 50 yards and less than it would be at 20 yards or 10. That bear looked pretty close to them when he fired.

But if he says he missed, he probably missed.

Maybe polar bears are just hard of hearing.

I have no idea! - that would be interesting to know. Certainly they have different temperments. It would be interesting to find out, not that i'm likely to run into a polar bear

It's possible something else about their physiology makes them less affected by the blast. Polar bears really aren't something i've spent much time looking at.

 

[Gatehouse]

I have to tell you - that is not true in many cases for black or grizzly bears. I know this from both personal experience and numerous documented incidents. If the bear is any kind of distance from you that can very easily be true, but close in i've seen a bear slinky and twist like it had been slapped in the face with a bat and swap ends and run like the demons of hell were chasing it. That would have been about 15 - 20 yards. .

Were these dedicated charges that you encountered?

I've seen a couple of bear charges on video now, and when the bear gets hit, it does a 180 and high tails it, just like Boomer mentioned.

 

[Foxer]

Were these dedicated charges that you encountered?

I didn't say anything about charging.

I've seen a couple of bear charges on video now, and when the bear gets hit, it does a 180 and high tails it, just like Boomer mentioned.

I'm sure they do. I hardly said that a bear would never turn and run if hit, i said they often turn and run even if they are not hit when the shot is taken at close range. Are you telling me that in your opinion no bear will turn 180 and run even if missed when the gun is fired close in? Keep in mind, there's a hell of a lot of info out there to suggest you're wrong, so think about your answer.

 

[Gatehouse]

]

I didn't say anything about charging.

That's what Boomer was talking about:

When a bear immediatrely turns 180 degrees from a committed attack, that is an indication that something has happened to it. I have driven off bears with live fire with shotguns, handguns, and rifles of various sizes, and in almost every case the bear moved off reluctantly, rather than bolting. Maybe polar bears are just hard of hearing.

I'm sure they do. I hardly said that a bear would never turn and run if hit, i said they often turn and run even if they are not hit when the shot is taken at close range. Are you telling me that in your opinion no bear will turn 180 and run even if missed when the gun is fired close in? Keep in mind, there's a hell of a lot of info out there to suggest you're wrong, so think about your answer

Most times when I have shot at bears to drive them off, they exit just as Boomer suggested, not turn around and run. Shooting at thier feet and peppering them with dirt usually gives a better response than a shot over thier heads, although not the fast 180 that was shown on those 2 videos.

I've only attempted to drive off about a dozen bears with gunfire, though.

 

[Boomer]

From my own observations, bears shot at with live ammo with the intention of driving them away, as a rule don't turn tail; more often they do the surely stiff legged walk and slowly angle away from you. Sometimes they continue to approach! Gunfire noise certainly isn't a reliable deterrent. Cracker shells on the other hand move them along most of the time. I'm not sure what the difference is to the bear; perhaps it's the bang and flash combination they don't like.

I was out early one morning in the dark and the DNR boys were pushing a bear out of town and drove it right into my lap. (Second time that week) They were raining cracker shells down, scared the crap out of my dog who promply wrapped the leash around my leg about three times to make sure I wasn't going anywhere, and the bear passed me within pepper spray range. It climbed up on the road, I was in the low ground between the road and the railway track, and when it got on the road turned to face me, so I hammered 3 or 4 slugs at it from my 590, to keep it moving. That bear didn't move an inch until the barrage of cracker shells resumed from the DNR truck. "Man, did you ever scare us!" they said. My response wasn't fit to print.

I did however, cracker a female with a cub one time and got charged for my trouble. Even inside a truck that charge was ferocious enough to get my heart beating and make my hands wet. She had her back to a bank and probably didn't think she had anywhere to go, I wanted her to scramble over the bank and out to the coast. I decided to let her be and allow her move off in her own time. Other than bears that have become desensitized to cracker shells from over exposure, this is the only bear I've seen totally ignore them and come in.

I'll check Shelton's books when I get home tonight and see if I can find his reference to pepper spray asphyxiating a bear.

 

[Foxer]

Most times when I have shot at bears to drive them off, they exit just as Boomer suggested, not turn around and run.

In fairness i doubt you've attempted that very often from extremely close ranges. I know you well enough to guess that any bear that was inside 15 yards that you felt was a threat probably wouldn't get a warning shot

Frankly, i'm willing to bet that boomer hasn't shot to miss at bears charging at that range either.

I've seen bears react as you say when the gun is fired in the hopes of scaring them a ways off - say greater than 50 yards. Sometimes there's no reaction at all. And i'll admit i've only seen a bear shot at and missed one time from very short range. But that reaction was radically different than the reaction i've seen when the bear isn't terribly close. The bear reacted like it had been slapped by a giant hand. It wasn't even just scared like some bears where you scare them off at a distance - it was like someone smacked it in the head.

And as i mentioned, there's a fair number of documented cases where that's the exact reaction you get when you fire close in at a bear that's charging. And that shouldn't be surprising - bears don't really understand what a gun is most of the time - now imagine you had a gun go off where you were ahead of the muzzle only a dozen yards away when you didn't expect it at all. It would likely startle the pants off of you. And you have no where near as sensitive ears as a bear does. There's also the flash of light, and we know that tends to unnerve bears a little too (there's unattended bear deterrents for bee farms and such which rely on that and are effective).

Also - the vast majority of documentation shows that charging grizzlies struck by bullets at long range tend to keep coming. but when they're shot close in they tend to break off. So one has to wonder if it's the bullet alone that's doing the 'turning'. There are exceptions to both cases, but as a rule that's the case.

I wouldn't recommend carrying a blank pistol hoping to turn a bear who's attacking or anything (spray would work better) but there's a hell of a lot of evidence that even if you miss the noise and fire close in will turn a bear and it'll go back.

And of course - in a river, it's going to turn 180 degrees and head back to shore if it leaves. Where else is it going to go?

I notice you didn't answer tho - do you really believe that a bear who has a gun fired at it at close range would be unlikely to turn around even if its charging? To the point where you feel it's solid proof of a hit that the animal retreated?

 

[Foxer]

Gunfire noise certainly isn't a reliable deterrent

No i wouldn't think it would be 'reliable'. I also doubt that the guy missed 'to scare it off' - i think he just missed.

Cracker shells on the other hand move them along most of the time. I'm not sure what the difference is to the bear; perhaps it's the bang and flash combination they don't like.

Who knows - that might even be different with different species. Polar bears which you mentioned earlier as being what you've experieced have some different physical characteristics. For example, they have an extra membrane that slides over the eyes which most bears do not. They may have other characteristics that affect things.

Polar bears may be sensitive to higher pitched sounds - it's possible the 'crack' of a banger sounds worse to them than the deeper 'boom' of a shotgun. They spend their time listening for seals and such after all. I have no idea if that's true but it would be very interesting to know. But just like we can't hear dog whistles maybe their hearing is within different ranges than ours or other bears.

 

[Gatehouse]

]

In fairness i doubt you've attempted that very often from extremely close ranges. I know you well enough to guess that any bear that was inside 15 yards that you felt was a threat probably wouldn't get a warning shot

I've shot at bears from very close range to scare them away. I am sure some were within 15 yards. I didn't feel threatened by them, or they would be dead. Mostly they were smaller bears, and I just didn't want them hanging around.

They jumped a bit when I shot the dirt in front of them, but that may have been because they got hit wiht dirt and rocks.

I notice you didn't answer tho - do you really believe that a bear who has a gun fired at it at close range would be unlikely to turn around even if its charging?

I imagineit is like other bear behaviour- SOme do , some don't.

To the point where you feel it's solid proof of a hit that the animal retreated?

No solid proof either way from that video clip.

 

[david doyle]

there are also numerous cases of bears re engaging after being sprayed with a good dose, there are also cases were the spray put directly into a bears face had ZERO effect on the animal,

You are right. The persisitence of an even mildly curious bear is often understated. Turning a bear once does nothing to reduce the chance it will try again. How many hornet stings does a bear cope with in a day of routing up ground nests???

Though it is obviously circumstanitial evidence I dumped a WHOLE can into a black bears face and it gave me about 2 seconds of distracted bear. The bear stayed with in 50 yards of where he was sprayed and was destroyed (legally) at first light the next morning.
I would suggest carrying spray on your left hip as a way to balance the load of your (permitted) revolver which rides on your right!

Gatehouse you really are going to try a spear hunt for bear some year are'nt you?! If you need a photgrapher/cheering section let me know, I'll keep my eyes open for an extra chargey short sighted bear for you.

 

[Boomer]

Frankly, i'm willing to bet that boomer hasn't shot to miss at bears charging at that range either.

I've seen bears react as you say when the gun is fired in the hopes of scaring them a ways off - say greater than 50 yards. Sometimes there's no reaction at all. And i'll admit i've only seen a bear shot at and missed one time from very short range. But that reaction was radically different than the reaction i've seen when the bear isn't terribly close. The bear reacted like it had been slapped by a giant hand. It wasn't even just scared like some bears where you scare them off at a distance - it was like someone smacked it in the head.

And as i mentioned, there's a fair number of documented cases where that's the exact reaction you get when you fire close in at a bear that's charging. And that shouldn't be surprising - bears don't really understand what a gun is most of the time - now imagine you had a gun go off where you were ahead of the muzzle only a dozen yards away when you didn't expect it at all. It would likely startle the pants off of you. And you have no where near as sensitive ears as a bear does. There's also the flash of light, and we know that tends to unnerve bears a little too (there's unattended bear deterrents for bee farms and such which rely on that and are effective).

Also - the vast majority of documentation shows that charging grizzlies struck by bullets at long range tend to keep coming. but when they're shot close in they tend to break off. So one has to wonder if it's the bullet alone that's doing the 'turning'. There are exceptions to both cases, but as a rule that's the case.

I wouldn't recommend carrying a blank pistol hoping to turn a bear who's attacking or anything (spray would work better) but there's a hell of a lot of evidence that even if you miss the noise and fire close in will turn a bear and it'll go back.

And of course - in a river, it's going to turn 180 degrees and head back to shore if it leaves. Where else is it going to go?

I notice you didn't answer tho - do you really believe that a bear who has a gun fired at it at close range would be unlikely to turn around even if its charging? To the point where you feel it's solid proof of a hit that the animal retreated?

My record for that stupidity, where I would of been perfectly within my rights to kill the bear, was about 12', or about as far away as the bear was long. This was towards the end of August, 2006. Sometimes in the rocks along the coast they just appear, and often at very close range. Judging from his behavior, he wasn't interested in us, and just wanted to get past us. Because going past us was going to put him right in town I drove him off, and the only time he ran was when I ricocheted a bullet from the .375 off a rock near him, but he only ran 15 or 20 yards and resumed walking. I don't like doing that because the chances of inadvertently hitting the bear is too great, then you have to kill a bear you had no intention, or justification in killing. Not long after we got home cracker shells started popping and knew he was back.

I believe the bear in the video was hit, and the reason I believe it was hit is because once the 30' barrier has been broken, you can't just turn those guys off. She was committed to the charge, she had no intention of breaking it off short, had no reason to break it off, and her reaction was so immediate that something had to of happened to her.

 

[Foxer]

I believe the bear in the video was hit, and the reason I believe it was hit is because once the 30' barrier has been broken, you can't just turn those guys off.

Well we know a heck of a lot of grizzes have been turned by pepper spray alone at that distance or less. I believe if the animal becomes seriously distracted or momentarily stunned or loses 'situational awareness' for lack of a better term they may well break off while they 'figure it out'. If you consider what a thunderclap in the face it must be to have a 44 go off right in front of you, i have to wonder if that wouldn't be just a little disorienting

I think what 'happened to her' was that she had a pretty stunning amount of noise and fire erupt rather unexpectedly in front of her which was probably pretty painful and confusing, and she retreated to figure it out.

I suppose one way to settle it would be to get ahold of the guy - i'll see if I can tomorrow.

 

[Boomer]

On Page 117, Bear Attacks, The Deadly Truth:
"The most important effect a spray has on a bear is the asphyxiation aspect"
James Gary Shelton

Page 115, Bear Encounter Survival Guide:
"If you tried to spray a predatory black bear that was up-wind from you at about 8 meters with 20 km gusts, the spray would turn right around at about three and a half meters and come back on you. You would immediately be asphyxiated, blinded, and burning all over."
James Gary Shelton

It seems to me there are other references with reference to the strength of the specific sprays, but these are the two I found first.

 

[Foxer]

He's misusing the word then, plain and simple. No bear or human or dog has ever asphyxiated from pepper spray.

He probably is referring to the burning sensation in the lungs - but it doesn't impede the lung's ability to process air. It just doesn't.

Here's from a research paper on the subject:

Discussed in this Brief: The effect of oleoresin capsicum (OC), or pepper
spray, on respiration, particularly when combined with positional restraint.
Researchers exposed 34 subjects to OC spray, both while sitting and in the
prone maximal restraint position.

Key issues: OC spray has gained wide acceptance in law enforcement as a
swift and effective way to subdue violent and dangerous suspects in the
field with relatively little force. As its use has increased, however, OC
spray has been associated in the media with the deaths of a number of
suspects in custody. Some have argued that OC spray, when used in
combination with physical restraints, can lead to significant respiratory
compromise, including asphyxiation and death. To test this theory,
researchers examined the respiratory effects of inhaling OC spray while in
the sitting and restraint positions and compared the results with those
obtained in the same two positions when subjects inhaled a placebo spray.

Key findings: OC exposure and inhalation do not result in a significant
risk for respiratory compromise or asphyxiation, even when combined
with positional restraint.

o In the sitting position, OC spray inhalation and exposure resulted in no
respiratory compromise. There was no evidence of abnormally low oxygen
levels or abnormally high levels of carbon dioxide (CO2). In fact, the
lower CO2 levels for this group suggest that OC spray may actually
increase ventilation slightly.

o Researchers detected no difference between the OC and placebo groups
in the restraint position. There was some decline in pulmonary function,
but not enough to be clinically significant. As in the sitting position, OC
seemed to increase ventilation.

http://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles1/nij/188069.txt

Pepper spray does not produce any kind of 'asphyxiation' in those exposed. The best it does is make your lungs hurt a little - and you'd have to breathe in a goodly amount for it to be more noticeable than the pain in your eyes nose and throat. At best it might discourage animals from taking a deep breath.

 

[Boomer]

I would expect that the percentage of OC in law enforcement pepper spray is significantly less than that of bear spray. A thug might weight from 150 to 300 pounds and a bear from 300 to 1500 pounds. If you are correct however, and bear spray has no ability to asphyxiate the target, that makes its use a poor choice to stake your life on, so I hope that is not the case.