Bear Spray A Lot Better Than Bullets

I would expect that the percentage of OC in law enforcement pepper spray is significantly less than that of bear spray

Depends on the police force, but it's irrellevant. The higher concentration in bear spray is because it's used as a fogger - lower percentages actually penetrate faster because the capsicum is an oil. Police shove their spray right in a person's face as a rule - you need the higher concentrations when you're 'misting' and it thins out. it will in no way shape or form affect the target 'worse' or 'better'. That's why dog spray (pencil thin beam) is .05 and most bear sprays are .1. You would need much much much higher concentrations than either to have any serious damage to people.

A thug might weight from 150 to 300 pounds and a bear from 300 to 1500 pounds.

Again - irrelevant. You're affecting the mucous membranes, body weight has zero to do with it.

If you are correct however, and bear spray has no ability to asphyxiate the target, that makes its use a poor choice to stake your life on, so I hope that is not the case.

It is the case, and it's an excellent choice.

It's pretty clear you're not up on how the stuff works, which is understandable (most folks aren't). But it works very well in most cases. Which is why it's been such a very popular 'animal' deterrent for humans, bears and dogs. Cops wouldn't carry and use it so much if it 'didn't work'.

It does however have limitations. Some people will not have the same reaction and likely that's true of bears too. There is no way to 'test fire' it before you use it (once used, it will lose it's remaining pressure in a relatively short time. It has to be chucked) so there's always the possibility you've got a dud can. (very very rare - but possible.) The bear even if deterred stands a good chance of coming back, especially black bears. You have to be DAMN close to use it (i consider 20 feet damn close when you're talking bears). There is a tendancy to shoot too soon and use up most of the spray, leaving none if the bear comes back. People tend to point it like a pistol instead of firing from the hip, which is a bad mistake. Etc etc.

It's not perfect, but its effective and fills a role, alongside guns and bangers and electric fences etc etc. You need to understand how it works and where to use it, and then it's an effective tool (Same as all the rest.) It would likely be of less value if we could have pistols, but until we do, its definitely something to add to the 'toolkit' of bear defense systems. Use it where it makes sense, don't where it doesn't.
 
On another entry on Page 115 of Bear Encounter Survival Guide, Shelton says that the bear is not driven off by the blinding- burning effect of the spray but because of the nerve-shock to the respiratory tracts and the immediate asphyxiation caused by aspirated capsicum.

Now you are correct, I don't know how the stuff works, and I have no intention of finding out. You say it doesn't asphyxiate, fine I'll take your word for it. But if there is a chemical aerosol that is suddenly breathed in, I am sure it has an effect on the subject regardless of what that effect might be called. Under such conditions the effects to mucus is a bonus but not the sole reason that it works.

After 20 years of having some exciting bear confrontations at close range, I'll stick with what works for me, and that does not include spray.

What did you find out about the video?
 
On another entry on Page 115 of Bear Encounter Survival Guide, Shelton says that the bear is not driven off by the blinding- burning effect of the spray but because of the nerve-shock to the respiratory tracts and the immediate asphyxiation caused by aspirated capsicum.

Capsicum doesn't cause 'nerve shock'. It's only effect on the 'nerves' IS the burning effect.

The effect can make it hard to breathe due to pain in the chest and lungs, but it cannot 'asphyxiate' anything. It can cause swelling of the mucous membranes, which gives the 'red puffy eyes' and nose etc, and it can make breathing painful, but it will not cause loss of oxygen to the blood as was reported in that clinical test i posted for you.

The bear is in pain. It cannot see. It cannot use it's nose properly (definately a problem for a bear). And its chest may well be burning.

It cannot cause asphyxiation in the normal use of the word ( a lack of oxygen or excess of carbon dioxide in the body that results in unconsciousness and often death and is usually caused by interruption of breathing or inadequate oxygen supply)

But if there is a chemical aerosol that is suddenly breathed in, I am sure it has an effect on the subject regardless of what that effect might be called. Under such conditions the effects to mucus is a bonus but not the sole reason that it works.

If it were aspirated in very large amounts perhaps - even water could make breathing difficult if you breathed in enough in aerosol form. But there's just not that much taken in as a rule. It may create a cough reflex, but not much more. You have to remember that the pain is instant, and bears tend to turn away the moment they're sprayed - there is no guarantee they'll breathe in more than a tiny amount (they may not be inhaling at the right moment). The substance sticking to the fur tends to guarantee the eyes and nose will get a dose, but the amount they actually breathe in may be very small. (fortunately it takes very little to cause the pain).

The lung tissue will be inflamed and may swell, making it tender and painful, but it won't interfere with it's ability to absorb oxygen. It may make an animal reluctant to breathe deeply of course, so it may not feel like doing any heavy running or exercise :)

But it has been noted many times in humans that if someone is willing to struggle thru the pain they are not impeded by the effects. Pepper spray does not 'disable' a person in the sense that it 'blinds' them or 'chokes' them. It just puts them in a hellish amount of pain and makes their eyes tear like mad and makes their throats and nose and lungs burn.

For a bear - this means it's hurting and it doesn't know why - it has trouble seeing it's target, it has trouble smelling it's target, and it becomes seriously confused and disoriented. Breathing may be painful (depending on how much they actually breathed in). Faced with that, bears tend to break off to 'regroup'. That in essance is how it works - bears think they're in trouble, they don't know what's going on or where the 'enemy' is, and they back off.

Unfortunately, the worst of the effect wears off pretty quickly. 10, 15 minutes later the bear may still be in discomfort but it will be functional enough to re-attack if it wishes to.

After 20 years of having some exciting bear confrontations at close range, I'll stick with what works for me, and that does not include spray.

Makes perfect sense ... unless you happen to visit a national park sometime that does not allow firearms. At that point you'll have a choice between spray or pretty much nothing when it comes to close in anti-bear defense. My point would be that spray would give you an effective tool to use in a circumstance where your normal defense is unavailable.

Saying 'i would never use spray for defense' is not much smarter than saying 'i would never use a gun', like we hear from a lot of tree huggers. Hey - it may not be right for you in most of the cases you find yourself in, and that's fine. But it's not wise to ignore the tool when it's proven effective - be it gun OR spray. Use it where it makes sense, don't where it doesn't.

I can't carry a pistol - i like to have something on me at all times. So - i pack a gun, but i have spray on my belt most of the time. If the gun's handy, i use that. If it isn't, the spray makes a good back up.

What's a better choice for bear defense - a 45-70 lever gun or a 44mag pistol? Obviously the lever gun if it's in your hands. But i'd never suggest people shouldn't have a pistol.
What did you find out about the video?

Haven't had a chance to track it down yet, but i'll give it a shot shortly.
 
Wow.

Just got ahold of the shooter in the video - Braun Kopsack.

What a great guy - after he was comfortable as to why i was calling he opened right up and we talked for about 15 minutes or more. Just a nice guy.

Ok - to business.

1 - he says he shot to miss. So - i owe him an apology there, (i told him i though he just missed :) ) He said he was reluctant to shoot mom due to the presence of the cubs. The next shot would have been into her, but she swapped ends and ran.

So - no hit on the bear, no attempt to hit the bear.

Second - he says he has had that happen numerous times in the past. He also related another recent story to me where they were out at a salmon stream, and he turned to find a mom and two cubs about 25 feet away. The bears all stood up and looked at him, and then all three dropped and came at him, mom in the lead. He shot directly in front of her and they all turned and left.

He was quite clear - it doesn't work ALL the time. But apperently it does work most of the time.

I asked him about pepper spray. He said that he thought it would work, but he'd rather have a gun if he could. He then relayed a very interesting story - he said he was pretty sure it would work fine because his brother had been attacked last year - and only had a bottle of water with him. He squirted the bear with the water when it charged AND IT BROKE OFF the charge. The bear came back 2 more times, and each time he squirted it in the face and it stopped and backed off.

At that point he was out of water, but the bear was looking around and not as interested and he managed to get away from the area.

So - even just the act of being squirted was something 'unexptected' enough to cause the bear to break off and rethink, even tho it didn't cause it to leave the area.

So - there you go. That's the skinny on that. I made a recording of the call so if anyone really wants a transcript i'll try to find the time to type it up. (but only if you REALLY want one - that's a lot of typing.) I forgot to ask permission about distributing the actual conversation so i won't be distributing that (the guy has a right to make money off of his interviews and the like, so without permission i won't post the audio.)

And if anyone's interested in a good alaskan guide -

Knik Glacier Adventures
knikglacieradventures.com

sounds like the guy's a pretty exciting guide :D
 
Interesting stuff. I'm glad the female wasn't killed because that probably would of doomed the cubs. It's interesting as well that that live fire has worked so well for him, where as we have found it lacking a deterrent. Under the circumstances of the video I'm not sure that would of been my intent. The down side here is as I said before given a rocky stream bed, a wound due to ricochet would be a distinct possibility, but kudos to the guy giving her a chance.
 
It's interesting as well that that live fire has worked so well for him, where as we have found it lacking a deterrent.

Well you're dealing with polar bears right? It's entirely possible there is something about them physically different than grizzes that makes it less effective.
Under the circumstances of the video I'm not sure that would of been my intent.

I sure as heck probably wouldn't have had the nuts to go for a warning shot. But i can see his point about the cubs.
 
there was a bear show quite some time ago about north american bear species and 1 of the biolagists made the comment that the polar bear is the only species to seek out humans as a food source, how true that is ? I do know a couple guys that have been on polar bear hunts and they say there alot less fearfull than grizzly or kodiaks.

and Clarke............let me know how that works for yea!
 
That's it- I'm getting rid of my guns and leaving the spray at home..All I need is a water bottle

If you really wanna look tough, drink the water before you go and just whizz in the bugger's face :D
 
there was a bear show quite some time ago about north american bear species and 1 of the biolagists made the comment that the polar bear is the only species to seek out humans as a food source, how true that is ? I do know a couple guys that have been on polar bear hunts and they say there alot less fearfull than grizzly or kodiaks.

and Clarke............let me know how that works for yea!

Much depends on who you talk to. A helicopter pilot I know pretty well and who has over 20 years of intensive bear work under his belt, is of the opinion that only a small percentage of polar bears fit that model, and that he considered grizzlies much more dangerous than polar bears. Is there a real difference? I don't know, but he thought there was, and he handled more than 5000 polar bears.

I think one difference is that most human-grizzly confrontation occurs at close range due to heavy cover and when the bear's presence is not realized by the individual(s). Polar bear confrontations can occur at close range, but if you go plowing through a stand of willows in the Hudson Bay lowlands in the summer you do so at your own peril. Even in the open, when a polar bear lies down, he appears to be just another white rock in a sea of white rocks. Using your binoculars to study the ground ahead of you is prudent when traveling on foot. From talking to Inuit people from Nunavut, it seems that the polar bear takes on a different personality when out on the sea ice during the winter, and tends to be much more aggressive. Perhaps that is because on the sea ice he only recognizes prey and other bears. In any case, when the weather is warm, you can often get away with stupidity around these guys that they wouldn't tolerate in cooler weather. Having said that, my pal, who received the eye injury from the pepper spray, took an amazing piece of video on a warm September day a few years back. A large male polar bear was feeding on a recently killed seal it had dragged into the willows below a rock outcrop along the river. The bear's head was right inside the 400 pound seal's body when it suddenly pulled it's head out, looked directly at him, and pinpointed his position. He immediately left the carcass, moved rapidly out of the willows, stopping occasionally to make sure my pal hadn't moved, found a point where he could climb the out crop, then came for him. That was quite a sight, just imagine this 1200+ pound polar bear, his head covered with blood and gore coming to kill you! A grizzly also acts aggressively to defend a food source, so I'd call them even given that scenario. Last summer though, I was able to drive a small female polar bear off a whale carcass, but there wasn't much left of it, and I wouldn't of attempted it on a fresh kill. Would a grizzly behave in a similar fashion? I don't know.

We've all seen the inter-web pics of the Inuit fellow from Lake Harbor on Baffin who was injured and whose tent was torn open by a small polar bear in what appeared to be a predatory attack. At the same time we've heard of grizzlies visiting camp grounds and pulling campers out of tents in predatory attacks.

I've had numerous bears of all ages sizes and of either ### approach me in a threatening manner when I've got too close. A grizzly behaves likewise. I've seen one bear attempt to ambush me when it realized I was tracking it in the snow. I've prevented an attack on a DNR newbie who concentrated on the darted bear in front of him, and didn't realize that the one lying down 50 yards to his left hadn't been sedated and it went for him as he walked unarmed towards the sedated bear.

From Foxer's discussion with the guide, grizzlies' reaction to gunfire seems to be 180 degrees from the way polar bears react. There could be reasons for this. Not the least of which is that the bears close to Churchill hear a lot of gunfire and a lot of cracker shells, so it is possible that they are desensitized to loud noises. This does not account for the similar reaction to bears that are observed with a similar reaction away from town. Perhaps the polar bear is not alarmed by sudden loud noises because of the time he spends on the sea ice when the tidal forces working on the ice create very loud bangs. Still, a bear not desensitized to cracker shells goes into high gear to get away when he first is shot at by them. But, there are some obstinate old bastards who I've bounced cracker shells off, that run few steps and resume walking as if unconcerned.

Last year we got a call at work for some muscle to help move a big bear from his cell in the bear jail next door to a helicopter net so he could be flown out. Usually these guys are pretty much out of it when we handle them, so I immediately went to the pointy end with the intention of grabbing the bear around the snout with my fingers inside his mouth which makes a good lifting point. As soon as I touched him he pushed himself up on his front legs and bunted me in the chest with his head. "OK, I won't put my fingers in your mouth then." The bottom line is that any bear, black, brown, or white, regardless of age or size is potentially dangerous, and as soon as you loose respect for these guys you'll get in trouble.
 
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