so I won some 155 Scenars at the Sniper match. looking forward to using them in my TRG, but here's the question, I've been using 168's for years and they work great. But everyone tells me they suck, and are the middle of the pack. What bucks wind better the lighter faster guys, or the heavier slower guys? Everyone has their favorite load for a precision rifle, but I'd like some empircal data to support the various favorite loads.
155gr or 175 or 180something in .308
- Thread starter Slavex
- Start date
beretta boy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Orillia, Ontario
How 'bout the John Lewis World Record group shot at the IBS registered match at Oak Ridge TN ... 0.386" at 600 yards ( = 0.0614 MOA ) using
Vihtavouri & Lapua 155gr. Scenars in his .308 ???
Vihtavouri & Lapua 155gr. Scenars in his .308 ???
155's are THE bullet for Palma match shooting out to 1000.
That said, if you look at precision shooters using other rounds in the 6-6.5-7mm families, they all seem to use the heavy, high BC bullets.
I've also heard that the 168 was designed specifically for 300m competition, but they worked great in my LTR, which incidentally hated 155's.
I dunno.... run what ya brung I guess LOL
That said, if you look at precision shooters using other rounds in the 6-6.5-7mm families, they all seem to use the heavy, high BC bullets.
I've also heard that the 168 was designed specifically for 300m competition, but they worked great in my LTR, which incidentally hated 155's.
I dunno.... run what ya brung I guess LOL
175's are theoretically better (than 168's) on paper, due to the higher bc. Some internet shooters never get far past that. In practise, I've found them to be too close to call out to 600m. That said, I've been using 175's pretty much exclusively for the last few years, with good results (like in the last match). You yourself seem to have done quite well with 168's, those guys who tell you they suck most likely finished with lower scores than you in the last match.
Kinda talking out my ass here, as I haven't tried them yet: I think you may want a different twist barrel to really see the 155's perform, different than you'd want for 168/175's that is. I've been meaning to try some 155's out too, but a lot of reading has said that 1/14 or 1/13 is the preferred twist. I'm guessing your Sako barrel is more like 1/11.
Kinda talking out my ass here, as I haven't tried them yet: I think you may want a different twist barrel to really see the 155's perform, different than you'd want for 168/175's that is. I've been meaning to try some 155's out too, but a lot of reading has said that 1/14 or 1/13 is the preferred twist. I'm guessing your Sako barrel is more like 1/11.
The 155 are great bullets remember Rob that there are 2 thoughts as to bullet weight and performance in regards to wind performance 1 is that Heavier Wieght Bullets 175 -185 gr with high BC tend to stay on course better but tend to remain in the wind disturbance area longer and thus may suffer in performance IE time of flight .The 2nd thought is that Lighter Bullets IE 155 are able to use their velocity and BC to its advantage spending less time in the disturbance zone and there for wind will have the lest amount of effect on the bullet. However the lighter bullet may suffer severe wind deflection under adverse conditions IE: greater POI shift. 6 of 1 half dozen of the other both have advantages Give them a go who knows they may they perform better than those 168 you are shooting LOL
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- Location
- calgary alberta
So much of what will work depends on twist rate.
The 155s are definately a high BC bullet and with the right twist can perform magic.
Light bullets loose velocity and energy faster than heaviers 1s will, that is physics. For pure paper work the 155s in a 12 or 13 twist would probably do very well, for knocking down plates at longer ranges is where you may find an issue.
Glock did some calculations when we were building all the 308s to come to the BCRA and found that the 155s do in fact need less moa comeup than the 175s out to 1000, but the downrange velocity and energy is higher with the heavier bullets, so we built the rifles with a twist more appropriate to 175 and heavier bullets. Now that the match is over and we have more range time plan to try and work with, 190, 200 and 208 gr bullets.
Additional comeups are easy to compensate for,to have a light bullet hit a gong but fail to knock it down is harder to live with.
So in answer to your question, most of the answer will depend on what the purpose of the rifle is, for paper the 155s would likely work better, for any hunting or tactical shooting where knock down gongs are used the heavier bullets will have the advantage.
The 155s are definately a high BC bullet and with the right twist can perform magic.
Light bullets loose velocity and energy faster than heaviers 1s will, that is physics. For pure paper work the 155s in a 12 or 13 twist would probably do very well, for knocking down plates at longer ranges is where you may find an issue.
Glock did some calculations when we were building all the 308s to come to the BCRA and found that the 155s do in fact need less moa comeup than the 175s out to 1000, but the downrange velocity and energy is higher with the heavier bullets, so we built the rifles with a twist more appropriate to 175 and heavier bullets. Now that the match is over and we have more range time plan to try and work with, 190, 200 and 208 gr bullets.
Additional comeups are easy to compensate for,to have a light bullet hit a gong but fail to knock it down is harder to live with.
So in answer to your question, most of the answer will depend on what the purpose of the rifle is, for paper the 155s would likely work better, for any hunting or tactical shooting where knock down gongs are used the heavier bullets will have the advantage.
168gr bullets were developed primarily for the ISU shooting format and offer exceptional performance @ 300m after 600m watch out the Bullets performance drops exponentially .Try shooting 168gr bullets @ 900m you are at a serious disadvantage when everyone else is running 155/175 or 185 gr bullets
The 155 gr Lapua GB491 has won many matches internationally to 900 meters. Wind drift is a function of drag(B.C.) and Velocity period. Weight and calibre are only part of the equation.
Having said that, please experiment with the Lapua bullets, adjusting OAL and so on to see if they will shoot accurately in your rifle. Ballistic superiority is a done deal, accuracy requires verification.
Please contact us at peterdobson@ns.sympatico.ca should you require more information on this bullet.
Regards,
Peter Dobson
Hirsch Precision inc.
Having said that, please experiment with the Lapua bullets, adjusting OAL and so on to see if they will shoot accurately in your rifle. Ballistic superiority is a done deal, accuracy requires verification.
Please contact us at peterdobson@ns.sympatico.ca should you require more information on this bullet.
Regards,
Peter Dobson
Hirsch Precision inc.
Parker-Hale Mike
CGN Regular
- Location
- Beautiful Victoria
I am the offending party who told him the 168's suck. For shooting past 500 they start to open up, by 800 you should just use wheel weights for bullets. Rob intends to shoot past 600 in other locations. If his plan is to do that he will need a different bullet. If you are going that route develop one load that will do what you need. I see people who hopscotch between bullets/loads for different uses and they never get the rifle to do what they need. Find a load, stick to it and learn it's capability and weakness inside and out.
That's all I am saying.
Oh, I forgot to mention. I have shot the 155's from my 1-10" and they do really well even though they are meant for a 1-13"
1/12 to 1/14 is the norm. I use a Gaillard 1/13.5 with .308 Palma chambering.
I use the A Max and the SMK.
With standard .308 chambering (eg Rem 700) the shorter bullets have really a long jump to go before touching the rifling.
BB
I've used 168's out to 1000yds successfully, and a little farther if I was at a high enough elevation although a little more luck than normal was required. That being said they were my only option.
The Lapua 155gr Scenars appear to be the best of both worlds. They are lite enough to drive fast and have a high BC due to their design. The only reason I don't use them is everyone took them off the prize table before I could get my hands on them....guess I'll have to try out the 167's I got instead.
Using speeds I know I can get out of 175gr and 155's in my .308 (2600 and 2800fps respectively) the Lapua has a full 6MOA less drop and 1MOA less drift at 1000 over the 175gr MK. Switch out the Lapua for a 155gr MK and you save 4MOA in drop, but now you gain 0.5MOA in drift over the 175grMK. (This is at Calgary's elevation)
The Lapua 155gr Scenars appear to be the best of both worlds. They are lite enough to drive fast and have a high BC due to their design. The only reason I don't use them is everyone took them off the prize table before I could get my hands on them....guess I'll have to try out the 167's I got instead.
Using speeds I know I can get out of 175gr and 155's in my .308 (2600 and 2800fps respectively) the Lapua has a full 6MOA less drop and 1MOA less drift at 1000 over the 175gr MK. Switch out the Lapua for a 155gr MK and you save 4MOA in drop, but now you gain 0.5MOA in drift over the 175grMK. (This is at Calgary's elevation)
Definately some good advise in this thread.
For 600 yards and up for the .308 win, use the Lapuas. They have a high BC and can be driven 2900 to over 3000 fps. If you develop a 155 load that groups just as well as the 168's at 100, the 600 yards results will plesantly surprise you. Velocity spread is important, run a program using a 15 fps difference to find out what it does at 1000. The 168's DO NOT transition well through to the sub-sonic velocity, probably the main reason people crap on them.
I think PGW used the 155 Lapuas in some big 30's. It would surprise me if they didn't beat the heavies.
Rob, that is a very good question. The answer is it depends.
For 600 yards and up for the .308 win, use the Lapuas. They have a high BC and can be driven 2900 to over 3000 fps. If you develop a 155 load that groups just as well as the 168's at 100, the 600 yards results will plesantly surprise you. Velocity spread is important, run a program using a 15 fps difference to find out what it does at 1000. The 168's DO NOT transition well through to the sub-sonic velocity, probably the main reason people crap on them.
I think PGW used the 155 Lapuas in some big 30's. It would surprise me if they didn't beat the heavies.
There are two groups of 155 out right now the 155 A max and the Sierra Match King these bullets are short and stubby (smaller bearing surface) the other group is the Lapua and the Berger 155 they are longer then the 175 Sierra and have a greater bearing surface. The shorter bullets are better stabilized in 1/13 twist barrels while the other ones can be stabilized in twists as quick 1/10 My current rifle has a 1/11.25 twist and I get solid accuracy with the 155 lapua over the factory 168 Sierras.
The 2nd part of whether or not the 155 can beat heavier 175's comes down to velocity. You have to be able to increase velocity sufficently to over come the short comings of the lighter bullet.
Here is an excellent article on the 155 Lapua
http://bryanlitz.bravehost.com/articles/Lapua_Scenar.pdf
Just to muddy the waters a little here is a article where they test the 155's 168's and 175 Bergers
http://bryanlitz.bravehost.com/articles/Testingof30calVLDs.pdf Please note the Bergers are needles comparied to the Sierras
The Sling shooters are limited to a max weight of 155 they have 30 inch barrels and can achieve 3,000 FPS
F T/R guys with barrels of 28.5 and less seem to be favouring the 175's as they can get to the desired speed without pressure signs
For a sniper match shooting at UKD i would go with the 155's higher velocity with lighter bullets means flatter trajectories, which is more forgiving if you don't guesitmate the distance quite right...
P.S. I just got an order of 500 Lapua Scenars (moly) from Peter and i am very please with the bullet and the service i received
The 2nd part of whether or not the 155 can beat heavier 175's comes down to velocity. You have to be able to increase velocity sufficently to over come the short comings of the lighter bullet.
Here is an excellent article on the 155 Lapua
http://bryanlitz.bravehost.com/articles/Lapua_Scenar.pdf
Just to muddy the waters a little here is a article where they test the 155's 168's and 175 Bergers
http://bryanlitz.bravehost.com/articles/Testingof30calVLDs.pdf Please note the Bergers are needles comparied to the Sierras
The Sling shooters are limited to a max weight of 155 they have 30 inch barrels and can achieve 3,000 FPS
F T/R guys with barrels of 28.5 and less seem to be favouring the 175's as they can get to the desired speed without pressure signs
For a sniper match shooting at UKD i would go with the 155's higher velocity with lighter bullets means flatter trajectories, which is more forgiving if you don't guesitmate the distance quite right...
P.S. I just got an order of 500 Lapua Scenars (moly) from Peter and i am very please with the bullet and the service i received
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After reading all that, my suggestion to you Rob, drive'm hard. I'd load those 155s in 1/2gr increments and shoot just one of each load till I found pressure. You've probably only shot 10rnds total at this point. Once you've found pressure, work down in .2 or .3gr increments loading say 5 a piece till you find the right harmonics for your barrel then crono that load and punch it into your ballistics program.
For the BCRA match, I ran 175s at about 2800fps, had no failures and placed well. What I found from sight in day was that for the next 2 days, my come ups were bang on which didn't really make a lot of sense since a lot of other people were having to adjust due to climate change. For me, it was more a matter of not shooting enough off my partners shoulder or from a simulated wall or prone unsupported that was more of a challenge.
Since reading all of these posts, I'm going to give some 155s a try and I'm pretty sure I'll be freek'n everyone out by the velocity results even out of my 21.750" long bbl. It's a 1:10 twist but we'll see what happens. I'm also planning on burning this barrel out by next spring and running a lighter contour, longer barrel too so watch out
1st place winners, I'm coming for you.
For the BCRA match, I ran 175s at about 2800fps, had no failures and placed well. What I found from sight in day was that for the next 2 days, my come ups were bang on which didn't really make a lot of sense since a lot of other people were having to adjust due to climate change. For me, it was more a matter of not shooting enough off my partners shoulder or from a simulated wall or prone unsupported that was more of a challenge.
Since reading all of these posts, I'm going to give some 155s a try and I'm pretty sure I'll be freek'n everyone out by the velocity results even out of my 21.750" long bbl. It's a 1:10 twist but we'll see what happens. I'm also planning on burning this barrel out by next spring and running a lighter contour, longer barrel too so watch out
1st place winners, I'm coming for you.
- Location
- In the clock tower!!
I only had time to do initial load work up with the 155 Lapuas before the match. I worked up slowly to what ended up being a very stout charge weight, then shot 3 5 round groups at 200M. Each group can be covered with a dime. My gun is the same as Glock-O-Maniac's, furnished with a 21.750" 1-10 twist barrel. My last gun was the same as this one, the real catch was adjusting seating depth to get the bullets to shoot right. My experience with the 155 Lapuas (308 loads in general) is that the Lapuas seem to do better with a higher density load. In addition, seating depth to lands is critical with the Lapuas.
You get the 155's shooting and they'll blow the doors off your 168s.
Enjoy your Lapua Swag you lucky dog!
so much to learn, again, guess I'll have to borrow Skullboys chamber guage again and figure out how long I can load these friggin things. I intend to hit the range on Thursday with my reloading gear and do some work ups with these things.
one quick little note. I detail stripped my Sako Monday night, the only thing I didn't do was pull the barrel or take the scope out of the rings. but the scope mount came off, stock, chasis, everything that could come off, came off. Cleaned out the spiders living in the stock, cleaned and lubed the gun, and then put it back together. went out Tuesday afternoon, dialed in my 100m zero from the match, used one of VBulls new data cards, and was 1/2cm high on my cold bore shot. then put 10 rounds into a .381 group. not bad.
oh and PHM you weren't the only one to tell me 168's suck. A few people have told me that over the years. you more serious though
and thanks again to Peter Dobson for the prizes!!!!!!!!
one quick little note. I detail stripped my Sako Monday night, the only thing I didn't do was pull the barrel or take the scope out of the rings. but the scope mount came off, stock, chasis, everything that could come off, came off. Cleaned out the spiders living in the stock, cleaned and lubed the gun, and then put it back together. went out Tuesday afternoon, dialed in my 100m zero from the match, used one of VBulls new data cards, and was 1/2cm high on my cold bore shot. then put 10 rounds into a .381 group. not bad.
oh and PHM you weren't the only one to tell me 168's suck. A few people have told me that over the years. you more serious though
and thanks again to Peter Dobson for the prizes!!!!!!!!
Parker-Hale Mike
CGN Regular
- Location
- Beautiful Victoria
