12 g vs 45-70

"Let's talk a .45 cal/300 grain bullet doing 2100 fps from a 12 gauge and then tell me it's not in the .45/70 range"


A slug gun and new slugs may be fine for a deer in close quarters, but that is where the similarities end.


350-GR WOODLEIGH WELD-CORE JSP AT 2000-FPS

350 gr. J.F.N. (2150 fps / M.E. 3592 ft. lbs.)

300gr. Speer Uni Core @ 2350 fps (3678 ft. lbs.)

405 gr. J.F.N. (2000 fps / M.E. 3597 ft. lbs.)

430 gr. L.B.T.- L.F.N. - G.C. (1925 fps / M.E. 3537 ft. lbs.)

Nosler Partition 300 gr 2367 fps 3733 ft lbs

So you just basically proved my point by showing virtually identical ballistics between the 12 gauge and 45/70 so how does that make the 12 gauge any shorter range gun than the 45/70? BTW, those are some pretty hot loads you are quoting! Basically you've got a very well constructed bullet designed for maximum penetration of the same diameter and weight as the 45/70 going the roughly the same speeds and delivering the same energy.....help me understand how this makes the 12 gauge such a shorter range gun? Who has the blinders on?

Just curious what length barrel you are getting those velocities out of and what pressures you are developing......303's posted velocities seem more in line with standard 45/70 loads!
 
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Ya, that sounds about right.......you can count on 20-25 fps loss per inch of barrel with lower powder volume loads like that.

Beware of the 12 guage. A great deal of Southern Ontario is shotgun only and the ammo makers are stepping up technology to meet the demands of shotgun hunters(especially in the States). Most who don't live in shot gun only areas could care less about slug advancement but the fact is this rapidly evolving technology is showing a great deal of potential for slug performance.
I can't comment on the 45-70 but I do know sabot slugs+fully rifled slug barrel makes for a lethal combination out to 200 yards. I would love to hammer a bull moose with one and see just how effective they are.
 
Good point, I'm from one of the shotgun only areas in Ontario and I don't really care how it compares to the 45/70 because it has no relevance to me. I am very interested in what Sheephunter is saying about these slugs but am wondering how much these news slugs would cost me??
 
So you just basically proved my point by showing virtually identical ballistics between the 12 gauge and 45/70 so how does that make the 12 gauge any shorter range gun than the 45/70? BTW, those are some pretty hot loads you are quoting! Basically you've got a very well constructed bullet designed for maximum penetration of the same diameter and weight as the 45/70 going the roughly the same speeds and delivering the same energy.....help me understand how this makes the 12 gauge such a shorter range gun? Who has the blinders on?




Two things. Range and accuracy.
And another, All but 2 of the loads are commercial.
as for comparible, the 300 gr 45/70 is moving about 250fps, faster then the 300 gr 12 gauge.

Your example compares the speed of a 300 gr slug more with a 350 or 405 gr from a 45/70 as far as velocity goes.

You're first post states that you have never felt the recoil like you did from thoe 2100 fps 300 grain slugs before and that you'd invite anyone to give it a go if they can fire more than a couple.
(i get the point that they kick hard)
However, you also say that you have a 45/70. Certainly if you're trying less than a year to the market superslugs then you tried something as common and as marketed as a leverevolution 45/70.
The leverevolution is a 325 grain bullet, moving at the same speed as that 300 grain slug that had recoil like you've never felt before.So it obviously kicks harder than a 45/70 does, and with a lighter bullet at that!!

How's about a link to the superslugs
 
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Two things. Range and accuracy.
And another, All but 2 of the loads are commercial.
as for comparible, the 300 gr 45/70 is moving about 250fps, faster then the 300 gr 12 gauge.

Your example compares the speed of a 300 gr slug more with a 350 or 405 gr from a 45/70 as far as velocity goes.

I can show you a 438 grain going 1900fps....does that make you happy?

You've shot enough of these new slugs out of the new slug guns to comment on accuracy have you?

Please show me the commercial availability of the loads you quoted as from what I've seen, most manufactuers have trouble cracking the 2,000 fps mark with the .45/70 and the majority keep it down around 1,800. What barrel lengths are these again?
 
How effective are the slugs at longer ranges, like typical BPCR matches are shot at? The 45/70 seems to fair well at those ranges.

Considering that the ballistics are far superior with the 12ga when compared to permitted BPCR loads, and all the performance that is required is banging a gong, I suspect they'd hold their own just fine. I'm sure that some of these match rifles are far better shooters than an off-the-shelf 12 gauge as they should be but as we are talking hunting here and not match shooting, 1.5 MOA seems more than adequate for sub 200 yard hunting.
 
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So you just basically proved my point by showing virtually identical ballistics between the 12 gauge and 45/70 so how does that make the 12 gauge any shorter range gun than the 45/70? BTW, those are some pretty hot loads you are quoting! Basically you've got a very well constructed bullet designed for maximum penetration of the same diameter and weight as the 45/70 going the roughly the same speeds and delivering the same energy.....help me understand how this makes the 12 gauge such a shorter range gun? Who has the blinders on?

Just curious what length barrel you are getting those velocities out of and what pressures you are developing......303's posted velocities seem more in line with standard 45/70 loads!


Depends on your standard, I'm just commenting on what I have tried. I personally prefer a much slower moving bullet, at 1600fps.
 
I can show you a 438 grain going 1900fps....does that make you happy?

You've shot enough of these new slugs out of the new slug guns to comment on accuracy have you?

Please show me the commercial availability of the loads you quoted as from what I've seen, most manufactuers have trouble cracking the 2,000 fps mark with the .45/70 and the majority keep it down around 1,800. What barrel lengths are these again?

If you acn show it to me, show it to me, get the link up for the 300 grain 2100 fps and the big boy you just mentioned.

Does 540 gr at 1550 make you Happy?

I believe the comaprison was 45/70 to 12 gauge not my barrel length and my powder, and tassles etc.
 
It woudl be interesting to see what kind of accuracy those slugs get at 300, 400, 500 yards.

I've shot them to 300 and it's exactly what you'd expect from a 1.5 MOA gun. After that I can't say nor do I really care. I look at the new slugs as an effective sub 200 yard round and I've never heard them touted as more. They go fast, hit hard, penertrate well and do it accurately......seems a lethal combination to me.
 
If you acn show it to me, show it to me, get the link up for the 300 grain 2100 fps and the big boy you just mentioned.

Does 540 gr at 1550 make you Happy?

I believe the comaprison was 45/70 to 12 gauge not my barrel length and my powder, and tassles etc.

Check the ballistic tables on the Federal and Winchester sites....it's all there in black and white. I've had the good fortune to run these over a chrony to confirm balistics. Now your turn!

Barrel length and powder volume make a huge difference with a rifle when comparing velocities...with shotgun they don't....that's why it's critical. Now where are the links to those uber 45/70 loads?
 
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It sucks when politicians force us to hunt with shot guns when any knowledgable hunter realizes that the evolution of slugs is going to surpass some rifles in terms of performance(with a hefty price to pay).

So in the end what good did it do by passing this law? It forced the guns and ammo makers to redesign the way we hunt with shotguns.

Therefore the competition between manufacturers is just starting to heat up. Stay tuned for the next advancement:D.
 
So they shoot 4-5" groups at 300?

That's not too bad. I've seen better accuracy with the 45-70, but 4-5" isn't too bad.

Ya, with some of the new specially designed slug guns I'd say that kind of accuracy with a descent scope could be expected. Benelli claims sub MOA with their guns and it could be true.
 
Ya Boomer, I certain Federal never took any of that into account and I'm certain Barnes never thought to ask how fast their new bullet was going to be pushed. And I'm sure no one thought to test it at the speeds being shot. Come on Boomer....you aren't talking out your mouth any more. Just face it, these slugs are new, they are purpose designed and you just possibly learned something today or should we return once again to the reductum ad absurdum form of debate?

Why is anything new so frightening to some people here?

Well you know how it is. You've forgotten to answer the most basic question that determines the success of a new product. What is it for? Most slugs are shot at deer, so why would Barnes design one to behave like a real bullet? The answer is that the arms companies don't want to cut their own throats. If the line between shotguns and rifles becomes blurred and a shotgun becomes capable of long range performance, the jurisdictions that mandate shotgun only deer seasons will naturally mandate smooth bore shotguns only from a public safety standpoint, which was the purpose in the first place. Perhaps with the success of sabot artillery rounds from smooth bores they would mandate lead slugs only, or even foster slugs only. Should that happen, sales of the wonder slugs will drop below what is feasible to keep them in production. All the money spent on R&D will be lost on a product that has no purpose and no market. How good can the wonder slugs afford to be in that case? They must be balanced for deer sized game, hence the light weight for the reduced caliber. The traditional slugs that you seem to have abandoned in favor of the wonder slugs are useful beyond deer size targets due to their caliber and mass. By your own admission 200 yards is the limit of practical accuracy with the wonder slugs; while many 19th century black powder rifles can keep rounds on target at 300 yards and beyond. I'd like to see Billy Dixon's Adobe Walls shot replicated with a shotgun, even a rifled shotgun with wonder slugs. It has been replicated with black powder cartridges. When long range shots with scatterguns are making headlines, the legislators along the populous eastern seaboard will be hard at work to level the playing field once again.
 
Well you know how it is. You've forgotten to answer the most basic question that determines the success of a new product. What is it for? Most slugs are shot at deer, so why would Barnes design one to behave like a real bullet? The answer is that the arms companies don't want to cut their own throats. If the line between shotguns and rifles becomes blurred and a shotgun becomes capable of long range performance, the jurisdictions that mandate shotgun only deer seasons will naturally mandate smooth bore shotguns only from a public safety standpoint, which was the purpose in the first place. Perhaps with the success of sabot artillery rounds from smooth bores they would mandate lead slugs only, or even foster slugs only. Should that happen, sales of the wonder slugs will drop below what is feasible to keep them in production. All the money spent on R&D will be lost on a product that has no purpose and no market. How good can the wonder slugs afford to be in that case? They must be balanced for deer sized game, hence the light weight for the reduced caliber. The traditional slugs that you seem to have abandoned in favor of the wonder slugs are useful beyond deer size targets due to their caliber and mass. By your own admission 200 yards is the limit of practical accuracy with the wonder slugs; while many 19th century black powder rifles can keep rounds on target at 300 yards and beyond. I'd like to see Billy Dixon's Adobe Walls shot replicated with a shotgun, even a rifled shotgun with wonder slugs. It has been replicated with black powder cartridges. When long range shots with scatterguns are making headlines, the legislators along the populous eastern seaboard will be hard at work to level the playing field once again.

You really don't know much about the ammo/gun business do you. It's all about faster, faster, faster because that's what the public thinks they need. Ya, they'll limit the performance....lmao...just like they have with muzzleloaders.

Where on earth did I say practical accuracy was 200 yards? It's the snowball trajectory that limits it unless you want to go to some pretty sophisticated optics then shoot your heart out. These new shotguns are as accurate as most off the shelf rifles so shoot at whatever distance your optics and skill level dictates. Keeping on target at 300 yards would only be limited by the operator....not the gun. There is life after the 19th century Boomer...you should get out and experience instead of revelling in the good old days.
 
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I checked out the win and federal sight. and while it looks good on paper, i'd like to see a 3 inch group at 200 yrds before i'd be convinced on it's accuracy.

when it comes to one over the other, I will always take a 45/70, and obviously I am biased. I have seen many deer shot with slugs at 100 yrds and i have seen two moose shot with slugs. i have seen a number of moose deer and elk shot with a 45/70. The 45/70 in my oppinion out performed the slugs, but these were the more common slugs of today, not these apparent uber slugs.

I am not skeptical of all new products, but i am critical of many. If i see or start to hear about game being taken at 200 yrds with a slug gun, (effectively) and see a few papers punched etc. then I will whole heartedly agree that there is more to a slug than there used to be. But until I see someone flatten a griz, Buffalo, Hippo, with one, I'll stay short of saying that these new slugs are comparible with the 45/70.
 
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