Somebody clarify for me what the Inglis/BHP difference is.

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So I'm at the Lethbridge air show and the Forces had a booth setup. I cruise on over to find a table of guns, nice.

I know that the BHP is the gun the Canadian Forces use, but I've always wondered what the "Englis - Made in Canada" was. So, what do you know, there are 3 gentlemen there, so I ask. The Solider I asked said that they were a "Browning High-Power 9mm". I asked about the "Inglis - Made in Canada" stamp and even he wasn't sure....so, needles to say, I don't feel so dumb.

Below is the pistol they had on display. It does have the "Inglis" stamp on it.

Clarify for me what it means, if anything.

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P.S. Thumbs way up to the Canadian Forces for not putting trigger locks on everything and huge warning signs up everywhere. Anyone could handle any of the weapons they had on the table, no questions asked. :rockOn:
 
Inglis is not a "Browning Hi-Power". The only real Browning Hi-Power is the one manufactured by FN. Inglis was a company in Toronto that manufactured refrigerators. During WWII, it was retooled to manufacture firearms. When Belgium was occupied by the Nazis, several FN managers/engineers fled to Canada and helped Inglis set up production of a Hi-Power clone. The Inglis "Hi-Power" was supplied not only to the Canadian military but also to also to the British and the Chinese (and perhaps a few others).
 
capp325 said:
Inglis is not a "Browning Hi-Power". The only real Browning Hi-Power is the one manufactured by FN. Inglis was a company in Toronto that manufactured refrigerators. During WWII, it was retooled to manufacture firearms. When Belgium was occupied by the Nazis, several FN managers/engineers fled to Canada and helped Inglis set up production of a Hi-Power clone. The Inglis "Hi-Power" was supplied not only to the Canadian military but also to also to the British and the Chinese (and perhaps a few others).
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This is great, thank you.
 
Basically, it's the same design, allowing for the degree of variations that are not uncommon in single design even from a single manufacturer. It's the "Browning HiPower" because John Browning started designing it as a project commission by FN, and FN meant it to fulfill a French Army requirement for a service pistol in 9mm (or larger calibre) with a large capacity magazine. It was to be called Grande Puissance in French, so that got translated to High Power. Browning patented the basic ideas in 1922 and died in 1926. FN then got one of their own engineers, Dieudonne Saive, to finish the design, and in 1928 when Colt's patents on some of Browning's ideas used in the M1911 expired, Saive used some of them in the HiPower. It was eventually introduced in 1935, giving rise to an alternate name, P35. It was adopted at that point by the Belgian military, but the French never did buy it.

So, it's the Browning HiPower because Browning basically designed it. FN owns it and while it has been and is copied (because patents run out, or you get overrun by an invader and are in no position to stop anyone in another country at war with your conquerors from copying it,) no one is entitled to call their copies "HiPower" without license from FN.

E.g. the Inglis company of Canada, as capp325 said. They stopped making them after the war, so there is really no issue for FN to pursue. But the Inglis pistols are in essence, Browning HiPowers.
 
Well, to be precise, the pistols made by Inglis under license (all during 1844 and 1945) were marked "Browning-F.N. 9MM. H.P." (for 'High Power') .... so they had the bases pretty well covered! ;)

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The pistol you show is a "No. 2" (with fixed rear sight - the configuration adopted by Canada and the United Kingdom). The other type made by Inglis (for China, although many found their way into service with Canada and the U.K. during WWII) was the "No. 1" pistol - which had a tangent-adjustable long-range rear sight graduated to a very optimistic 500 meters, and had a slot milled into the rear of the backstrap for attachment of a wooden shoulder-stock/holster:

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Back in 1944/45 the pistols weren't marked "No. 1" and "No. 2" - I gather their appearance was sufficiently different that it wasn't considered necessary. The "No. 2" mark on the pistol you show was added pursuant to a post-war directive of the Department of National Defence. (Note that it was engraved when added, thus exposing raw steel, whereas the other marks were applied at time of manufacture, before the slide was parkerized ....)

I should add that the Inglis pistols were the 1930's pattern made by F.N. - one very noticeable difference from the modified version now being manufactured was the internal extractor, which was changed to an external extractor by F.N. circa 1962 -

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If you ever Drive into Toronto on the Gardiner you can see the Inglis factory on the North Side. They make washing machines and other house appliance type items... our station has an inglis stove :) I have seen a few in the system that were not stamped INGLIS tho... were still made by them with the T in the serial number....
 
capp325 said:
Inglis is not a "Browning Hi-Power". The only real Browning Hi-Power is the one manufactured by FN. Inglis was a company in Toronto that manufactured refrigerators. During WWII, it was retooled to manufacture firearms. When Belgium was occupied by the Nazis, several FN managers/engineers fled to Canada and helped Inglis set up production of a Hi-Power clone. The Inglis "Hi-Power" was supplied not only to the Canadian military but also to also to the British and the Chinese (and perhaps a few others).
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The Inglis IS a "BROWNING - FN High Power"

Browning owned SOME of the patents used in the GP-35. Colt owned the rights to North American sales of all Browning pistol patents, F.N. owned the rights to all European sales of Browning patents.

The Inglis production took place under a nominal license from both Val Browning and F.N. with the blessings of King Leopold of Belgium (and in theory Colt).

Inglis was approached by the Chinese to produce Brens in 8mm, and they also enquired whether they were capable of producing a pistol. Inglis said "why not", and started reverse engineering from pre-war samples supplied by the Chinese & Val Browning.

It was the Chinese leaning on FN and the threat of serial production by Enfield (notorious for not paying royalties; Webley in the '20s & Sterling in the '50s) in the UK which actually was the main impetus for FN to assist Inglis with some of the engineering problems of the early guns they were using as samples (I* locking block & ejector).

In fact, improvements incorporated in the Inglis (MkII hammer, extractor & ejector) were post-war incorporated into Belgian production.

Interestingly, the Belgian GP-35 was covered by no Canadian registered patents into the 1950s....
 
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Lee Enfield said:
The Inglis IS a "BROWNING - FN High Power"

Browning owned SOME of the patents used in the GP-35. Colt owned the rights to North American sales of all Browning pistol patents, F.N. owned the rights to all European sales of Browning patents.

The Inglis production took place under a nominal license from both Val Browning and F.N. with the blessings of King Leopold of Belgium (and in theory Colt).
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This is interesting info and it's the first time I hear it. Still, form a strictly legal standpoint, I don't see how FN could have granted Inglis rights to produce the P-35 under license. Since the patents were owned by the corporation rather than an individual, any valid grant of license would have had to be approved by FN's board of directors. This sure as hell wouldn't happen with the Nazis in effective control of the company.

From a practical standpoint, it was not manufactured by FN regardless what the rollmark says.
 
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It's awesome, I have an issued Inglis HP at work and a full set of appliances all made at the same place. Make work feel like home :D

Wow did the Inglis they brought to the airshow seems to be in bad shape. Good thing I've never been issued one in such a bad state
 
Lee Enfield is right.

The Canadian manufactured Inglis Browning Hi-Power was reverse engineered because no spec drawings were available to start production. A pistol was secreted out of occupied France when the factory was over-run by the Germans.
If I am not mistaken, only 30,000 pistols were made.
For you Inglis guys, when was the Inglis decal put on the grip? What series, by that I mean, did it start with the 1T, 2T, 3T?
 
capp325-

Nobody is suggesting that the Inglis pistols were "manufactured by F.N." .... but the "Browning-F.N." rollmark specifically recognizes the rights of Browning and F.N., and is a reference to the licenses granted by them for production of the pistol by Inglis.

Refer to Clive Law's definitive "Inglis Diamond: The Canadian High Power Pistol" (ISBN 0-88935-265-8; hardbound, 288 pages) in which all of this is detailed. For example, it happened that F.N. Director-General Gustave Joassart and Deputy Director René Laloux were in London on business when Belgium was invaded - and they remained in exile for 4 years, where they were joined by three other senior F.N. people, including chief designer Dieudonné Saive.

Legalities are what you make them to be, of course - and the Allies accordingly had no difficulty in dealing with this "F.N. Management-In-Exile", to the point of entering into written contracts agreeing to pay a royalty for every pistol produced by Inglis. As you may be aware, the Germans made their own "arrangements" - by officially declaring FN to be a subsidiary of Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM) and continuing to produce the GP35 (High Power) at the Liege works. In fact, I understand that the High Power thus became the only firearm design produced and militarily issued by both the Axis and Allies.

The fact remains that the Inglis pistols were, indeed, Browning-F.N. High Powers .....

hatman1793 -

Actually, total production by Inglis exceeded 153,000 pistols (combined total of both No. 1 and No. 2 pistols.)


I assume this is the decal you are referring to:
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It wasn't an "Inglis" decal - rather it was distinctive mark adopted by the Canadian Mutual Aid Board, to be applied to Canadian-produced war supplies in general, as detailed in this 1943 circular (click thumbnail to enlarge) -



Packing Inglis pistols -

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It is my understanding that the decals were applied to all pistols produced by Inglis - they were very fragile, however, with the result that they soon wore off in service, and thus are usually missing from issued pistols.
 
The main difference between Inglis and FN is that Inglis pistols were manufactured using inches whilst the FN were metric. Parts between Inglis and FN are not interchangeable.
 
GrantR said:
The fact remains that the Inglis pistols were, indeed, Browning-F.N. High Powers .....
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With respect, I have to disagree. Those pistols may have been stamped "Browning-FN Hi-Power" and manufactured with the approval of several former FN managers, but as you said, the legalities of this "arrangement" are far from clear. And as someone else pointed out, they were not produced using original blueprints but instead were reverse engineered using imperial measurements. In my opinion, these differences are too significant to call the Inglis pistol a "Browning-FN Hi-Power".
 
Just to add to all of this if I may. "Browning" never and has never produced anything in the way of firearms (Aside from JMB's very early days). FN has produced the various "Browning" firearms throughout the years for "Browning" in the US. Call it clever marketing. All Browning HP's and FN Hi-Powers came out of Belgium until recently when production shifted to Portugal.

Interestingly, the gods at the Gun Registry have my Inglis Mke1 listed as as "Browning" Hi-Power. No reference to Inglis at all.

Take Care

Bob
 
To add a little about the license agreement. Canadian Arsenals offered to tool up and do more production, but FN pointed out that the license they gave Inglis was for Inglis, and the duration of the war only.

As for the imperial vs. metric thing, unless dimensions were actually changes, they should interchange just fine. Most internal parts will interchange between "metric" and "inch" FN rifles, the safety/trip sear, for example.
 
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capp325 said:
With respect, I have to disagree.
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I guess we'll have to 'agree to disagree' - although I will mention that you are the only person I have ever encountered who takes the position that you do. By definition, 'reverse engineering' simply means that all necessary dimensions and specifications were taken directly from existing F.N. High Powers (six of them, supplied by the Chinese Government) - a necessary procedure because the Germans had seized the F.N. factory, along with all the engineering specs and drawings - and that reverse engineering was done under license from F.N.

As paulz so correctly points out - the fact that the measurement system used by Inglis was Imperial rather than Metric is utterly meaningless, since the actual measurements were the same. (In other words, 7.5 millimeters is the same length as 0.29527559055 inch ...... they are just two ways of expressing the same dimension.)

By the way, contrary to what has been said, the Inglis was "reverse engineered" so well that I understand Inglis and F.N. parts will interchange, for the most part - provided you are working with the 1930's version of the F.N. pistol.

Canuck44: - both of my Inglis pistols (a No. 1 and a No. 2) are also registered with the "Make" listed as "Browning" - that must settle it, since the CFC couldn't possibly be wrong! :rolleyes:
 
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GrantR said:
and that reverse engineering was done under license from F.N.
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This is where we run into a disagreement. My understanding is that these were NOT, in fact, manufactured under license from FN. They may have been made with blessings from pre-war FN management and the Belgian government in exile, but neither the exiled government nor the former management actually owned the P-35 patents. The patents were owned by FN the company, which was at the time controlled by the Nazis and for obvious reasons would have never entered into a licensing agreement with Inglis.
 
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capp325 said:
This is where we run into a disagreement. My understanding is that these were NOT, in fact, manufactured under license from FN. They may have been made with blessings from pre-war FN management and the Belgian government in exile, but neither the exiled government nor the former management actually owned the P-35 patents. The patents were owned by FN the company, which was at the time controlled by the Nazis and for obvious reasons would have never entered into a licensing agreement with Inglis.
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Actually the "Browning" High Power (Grand Puisance 35) is a combination of patents by Saive & JM Browning which were licenced to FN.

Val Browning supplied at least one of the sample pistols.

Borrow or purchase a copy of Law's Inglis Diamond for a clearer picture of the actual "license" agreement, as Law accessed (and reprints/quotes) original documents from the involved parties.
 
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