Best long range gun and glass... opinions please

this sounds sweet, i will have to try and line up a rv full of rednecks for the journey, do you have an exact date pinned down yet?


Nothing will get pinned down until Feb or so. Work and family aren't that predictable.

Plus I need to work around the schedule of other shoots. These will not get organised until the new year, maybe as late as March.

Jerry
 
Glock4ever, hate to say it but that scope is CRAP.

according to S&B

75% light transmission
100 meter fixed parallax
only 12 MOA elevation adjustment and a pathetic 10 MOA windage adjustment
and your only reticle choice is the p3.

now if you want an S&B scope the 5-25x56 PM II/LP is the ticket

90% light transmission
adjustable parallax from 10m to infinity
65 MOA of elevation and 32 MOA of windage
and 4 reticle choices


or if you really want high magnification get a 12-42x56 nxs from NF they offer 45 MOA of elevation and 35 MOA windage
 
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according to S&B

75% light transmission
100 meter fixed parallax
only 12 MOA elevation adjustment and a pathetic 10 MOA windage adjustment
and your only reticle choice is the p3.

Source, please, because none of that makes sense to me... 50x magnification with only 12MOA elevation adjustment doesn't make sense, neither does 100 m fixed parallax for something that will be used at 1000m & beyond. You are talking about the 12.5-50x56, right? :confused:
 
Redman/iconfig: I have 5-25 PM - it is at the smith's shop right now getting ready to go on top my .338 LM. I was speaking on the pure magnification. I agree that reticle selection is better on the NF but I am sure S&B wouldn't have made this scope so the reticle covers everything at 50x; wouldn't make much sense - I can see this being a SFP scope but I actually haven't seen the stats on it that stats in the first picture mention SFP and 50m Parallax. BTW S&B does make SFP scopes check out their webpage you can get even PM2 series scopes with SFP. As for the 100m parallax, the pictures clearly shows a Parallax adjustment knob. Looks like there is a lot of adjustment on the knob unless the increments are tiny.

sb1050x345.gif


You can make out the parallax adjustment on this picture.

schmidtbenx350.jpg


Shot show presentation of the scope:

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=qmEZQVLyT3o

schmidtbender1x600.jpg


schmidtbender2x600.jpg
 
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S&B are definitely some of the best optics in the shooting world, but they are not popular in the F-Class discipline.... as was stated already, their reticles are not optimal for that sort of shooting. I suspect their weight is an issue as well, with a 10 kg maximum all-up weight for open class and 17 pounds for F/TR
 
Obtunded: I totally acknowledge the S&B isn't the best scope for every application. The thread topic is "Best long range gun and glass". I am only speaking from a Magnification perspective. Reticle/weight/actual application/funds available will dictate what the "best glass" is for any application.
 
S&B are definitely some of the best optics in the shooting world, but they are not popular in the F-Class discipline.... as was stated already, their reticles are not optimal for that sort of shooting. I suspect their weight is an issue as well, with a 10 kg maximum all-up weight for open class and 17 pounds for F/TR

Actually, comparable models between the two weigh about the same (within a few ounces, from the ones I've read up on, at least). I'd say it's really an issue of reticules and funds really; why drop an extra 800$ to compensate for inflated EU salaries and have a reticule not made for the task at hand?

Thanks for posting those pics - it made total sense: looks like there's 140 mils of elevation (~480 MOA!), parallax adjustment down to 10m, but too bad that there aren't other specs. Anyhow, yeah, I've seen that the higher power PMII scopes are 2nd focal plane, which makes sense so as not to obscure target.

So I guess it boils down to what sig.357 wants to do; sounds like he wants to do target shooting, F-class style - I'd say go NF...
 
Target shooting / long range 1000 + yds. I do not hunt at all so anything other than for competion would not help me. I am really just getting my feet wet and ultimately I want to compete on some level this comming summer.

I figure I might as well buy top of the line glass right up front. I don't want to get caught in the upgrading syndrome with the glass and I figure if I master the qualities of a top line scope and keep the same unit for as long as it suits my needs I might be better off.

The rifle can be easily up-grade as my skills and understanding of the sport progress. Does this make sense ...?
 
Sig 357: yes it makes total sense to buy the best optics you can afford. When I started in the shooting game about 10 yrs ago, I used to buy what I could afford which wasn't much (Tasco/Bushnell/low end Leupolds) It got me started but if I had the discipline I would have saved my money and bought the best scope/rifle (only 1-2 rifles) and shot more. Of course like everything else I wanted to "try" stuff so I spent a lot of money buying/selling/trading and now I am at only 7 total guns (1 handgun, 1 AR, 2 LR, 1 Varmint, 1 lever, and 1 22LR) that I shoot.
 
http://www.schmidtundbender.de/pm-ii/12-5-50x56-pm-ii-p-7.html

or

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.schmidtundbender.de%2Fpm-ii%2F12-5-50x56-pm-ii-p-7.html&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=de&tl=en

is where i got my info from, so someone at s&b must have screwed up on the web page if it has adjustable parallax and more than 12 moa of elevation adjustment
 
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someone at s&b must have screwed up on the web page

Big time... The page even says that it DOESN'T have the double-turn feature, but if you look at the pic, you can clearly see the little turret with windows on top of the elevation turret (that show yellow to tell you you've done a full turn and are in a subsequent adjustment range).

On top of that, the P3 reticule on page for of the scope's infosheet isn't even the right picture! See here. Wow, it's like they're trying to intentionally disseminate misleading information.

Whatever the case, sig.357 won't need this scope for his needs.
 
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I checked out the stats page and you can see that it comes with two types of adjustments .25 MOA and .1Mil but if you see the picture the old dude is holding a scope that says .25 CM - WTF? Talk about confusing; I can't wait to actually see a real production model. I don't think the 75% light transmission makes much sense. 1/4 of the light is reflected away or lost? I don't even think Tasco's have that low a light transmission.
 
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Sig 357: yes it makes total sense to buy the best optics you can afford. When I started in the shooting game about 10 yrs ago, I used to buy what I could afford which wasn't much (Tasco/Bushnell/low end Leupolds) It got me started but if I had the discipline I would have saved my money and bought the best scope/rifle (only 1-2 rifles) and shot more. Of course like everything else I wanted to "try" stuff so I spent a lot of money buying/selling/trading and now I am at only 7 total guns (1 handgun, 1 AR, 2 LR, 1 Varmint, 1 lever, and 1 22LR) that I shoot.


Amen. What a pleasant change from guys buying $3000 guns and putting $250 Leapers Scopes on them. I have always said it takes a rich man to buy a cheap scope.

Good on you.

FYI, for what it is worth, MOA is a far more straight forward measurement than mils. Aren't SB's calibrated in mils?
 
I totally agree. Don't just buy the best you can afford. It's ok if you shoot a couple of time a year. But If you are planning on shooting a lot, spend a good chunk of your total budget on the optic. It will make a whole lot of difference out at longer range.(700m-1000m)
 
I guess I should add that since I am new to this and probably won't be competing for a year or so ( I will need to seek out coaching and practice)

For coaching keep an eye on the Ontario Rifle Association website. They run 4 classes during the winter at an indoor range, gets you started and then there are a few shoots in Borden at long range.

The guys that run it are all long range shooters and are very helpful, definitely worth the time and money.

Like mystic said, the 12 F/TR would not be my first choice.

Bob.
 
Thanks for all the support ...

Any thoughts on the Remington 700 XCR Tactical .....
Is there a lot of difference between 20in & 26in barrel for distance accuracy.... other than the obvious 6 inches.....;)
 
FYI, for what it is worth, MOA is a far more straight forward measurement than mils. Aren't SB's calibrated in mils?

Depends on the shooter; mils always made more sense to me (a lot of this might be basics to some, so bear with me!):

1 mil = 0.001 radians
1000 mil = 1 radian

1 radian can be thought of like this: if you took a pie and cut a piece that had an angle of 1 radian, then the length of the straight sides of the piece would be of the same length as the curved edge of the crust of the same piece.

So if your piece's angle was a mil(liradian), then the straight side of the piece would be a thousand times longer than the curved edge (i.e. a really thin piece!).

What that means for ranging is if you know the height of an object in whatever unit you want, and you know its angular height in mils, then its distance is just 1000x its height. Example (in metric, but works if you change m to yds): if an object is covering one mil dot on your scope and you know it's 1m tall, then it's 1 km away. Note that this form of estimation gets less accurate as the angular height of the object increases...

Mutiplying by 1000 in your head is easy... MOA, on the other hand, requires you to mutliply the object's known angular height in MOA by ~3.438 in your head; good luck with that! :rolleyes:

Another thing that makes it practical is that, since that S&B's knobs are in mils too (0.25cm@100m/click = 0.025mils/click, according to that pic), if you see through your scope that you missed by, say, 5cm @ 500m, you know that each click is now 5*0.25=1.25cm, so just *click*, *click*, *click*, *click* and you're set.

Yup, there are S&B's in MOA as well.
 
Any thoughts on the Remington 700 XCR Tactical .....
Is there a lot of difference between 20in & 26in barrel for distance accuracy.... other than the obvious 6 inches.....;)

There are a few guys shooting them at the meets but most are leaning the the Savage in 6.5x 284.

26 inch pipe or more, 20 won't work.

There is a 300 yard shoot in Borden next Saturday, an Intro day if you are interested.
 
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