Best long range gun and glass... opinions please
- Thread starter sig.357
- Start date
Any thoughts on the Remington 700 XCR Tactical .....
Is there a lot of difference between 20in & 26in barrel for distance accuracy.... other than the obvious 6 inches.....
My thoughts... it is a rifle that costs twice as much as an SPS and does EXACTLY the same thing. Don't get suckered into believeing that an expensive factory rifle shoots better than a cheap one. The barrel is everything and the barrels are grunted out of the very same place.
It is completely false that shorter barrels are less accurate, in fact the opposite is often true when the harmonics of a longer barrel affect accuracy. The only thing affected to some degree is velocity, and every rifle and every load is different: faster DOES NOT mean more accurate.
Rifles for competition generally have longer and heavier barrels for heat tolerance purposes, stability, and the ability to set the barrel back after the throat is worn. Longer barrels allow for less powder to achieve the same velocities (sometimes) or for the ability to go faster if the node exists at that speed.
Glock4ever
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Edmonton, AB
Obtunded: Sig mentions distance accuracy. I agree that shorter bbls are stiffer (probably more accurate a close range) but if your bullet is sub-sonic at distance it tends not to be as accurate. I would say that if you are talking distance (read past 800m with a .308) then you need a longer bbl just to keep the bullet moving along faster (less drift/drop) just my opinion.
Fluted barrels .... the 700 xcr is a wide fluted bbl as compared to the sps which is not fluted ...
I have a magnum research 17hmr (short bbl) which seems to be as accurate if not more accurate than the competitors at 200 yds ...
Are all the 700 Rem. series rifles heavy bbl...?
I have a magnum research 17hmr (short bbl) which seems to be as accurate if not more accurate than the competitors at 200 yds ...
Are all the 700 Rem. series rifles heavy bbl...?
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
redman, that was a very complete explanation and reinforces why such a reticle/scope IS NOT desireable for competitive shooters.
The equivalent with MOA turrents:
First sighter lands low and to the right in the 10 rings. That would be two clicks up and two clicks left. Rings are spaced 1/2 min apart and am assuming 1/4 min clicks.
Second sighter into the X ring - convert and enjoy the remaining 14 shots.
Targets are sized using MOA so adjusting for doping is dead easy with MOA clicks. No math, not much thinking except for dialing the wrong direction.
As for accuracy vs barrel length/contour, matters more the quality of the barrel/stress relieving then its overall dimension. A thin long match quality barrel will outshoot a heavy factory stubby thing. For the first 5 rds anyways.
The heavier the contour the less likely it will warp as it heats up. But a well stress relieved match barrel can shoot too hot to touch and still maintain superb accuracy.
A longer barrel can be more finicky to tune then a shorter one unless the longer is properly bedded - support under the first couple of inches and all is well.
I have found that if the barrel is 26" or shorter freefloated, they are dead easy to work with.
Velocity DOES make a difference to LR performance. Same bullet going slower will get bounced around more. A bullet going subsonic is never a good thing when going for best scores.
The bullet doesn't become 'inaccurate', but the wind drift will increase exponentially. Now if that bullet becomes aerodynamically unstable (ie tumble), all bets are off.
In simple terms, get the best quality barrel you can afford in the contour and length that suits your needs. Have it properly installed and load up quality ammo.
Domestic factory rifles in all manner of bling will do squat for accuracy UNLESS you luck out and have a good shooting barrel. And this can just as easily be in their entry level model as it is in their most expensive.
Althought most factories suggest they QC barrels for the more expensive lines better. ??????????
A 'better' stock will do very little to change the overall performance of that barrel. Tuperware stocked rifles can shoot just as well as the much more expensive composite stocked ones.
Savage is on a role right now and they are making some of the best factory barrels. They can still walk when hot so be careful and test before attending an F class match and finding out.
Enjoy...
Jerry
The equivalent with MOA turrents:
First sighter lands low and to the right in the 10 rings. That would be two clicks up and two clicks left. Rings are spaced 1/2 min apart and am assuming 1/4 min clicks.
Second sighter into the X ring - convert and enjoy the remaining 14 shots.
Targets are sized using MOA so adjusting for doping is dead easy with MOA clicks. No math, not much thinking except for dialing the wrong direction.
As for accuracy vs barrel length/contour, matters more the quality of the barrel/stress relieving then its overall dimension. A thin long match quality barrel will outshoot a heavy factory stubby thing. For the first 5 rds anyways.
The heavier the contour the less likely it will warp as it heats up. But a well stress relieved match barrel can shoot too hot to touch and still maintain superb accuracy.
A longer barrel can be more finicky to tune then a shorter one unless the longer is properly bedded - support under the first couple of inches and all is well.
I have found that if the barrel is 26" or shorter freefloated, they are dead easy to work with.
Velocity DOES make a difference to LR performance. Same bullet going slower will get bounced around more. A bullet going subsonic is never a good thing when going for best scores.
The bullet doesn't become 'inaccurate', but the wind drift will increase exponentially. Now if that bullet becomes aerodynamically unstable (ie tumble), all bets are off.
In simple terms, get the best quality barrel you can afford in the contour and length that suits your needs. Have it properly installed and load up quality ammo.
Domestic factory rifles in all manner of bling will do squat for accuracy UNLESS you luck out and have a good shooting barrel. And this can just as easily be in their entry level model as it is in their most expensive.
Althought most factories suggest they QC barrels for the more expensive lines better. ??????????
A 'better' stock will do very little to change the overall performance of that barrel. Tuperware stocked rifles can shoot just as well as the much more expensive composite stocked ones.
Savage is on a role right now and they are making some of the best factory barrels. They can still walk when hot so be careful and test before attending an F class match and finding out.
Enjoy...
Jerry
Very few long distance competition shooters use fluted barrels and even fewer would ever use a fluted hammer-forged or button-rifled barrel.
Hammer forging and button rifling produce stresses that cannot be completely relieved by conventional stress relieving methods. Some button-rifled barrel makers void warranties if their barrels are fluted.
Cut-rifled barrels are generally safer to flute, but unless those flutes are cut to absolutely identical depths and widths, you have an asymetrical distribution of steel that will cause some degree of flexing as it heats up.
I also stand by my comments about barrel length and velocity. Agreed,a slower bullet is more succeptible to the wind, but it has nothing to do with how straight those bullets leave the barrel. (accuracy) Once you get out past 5-600M, its all about the shooter and how well he knows his rig.
Last edited:
Ok ... lets say I purchased a 700 xcr tac for an entry level gun for some of the options not found on the stock sps or decided on the standard sps and down the road I decide I want to upgrade to a "better / longer" match bbl. I am assuming that this can be done symply by having the bbl swapped out of the existing reciever .... to a higer performance bbl.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
YES - if the cartridge shares the same bolt head.
And Match button rifling barrels are equally accurate as Match cut rifling - at any distance
Jerry
And Match button rifling barrels are equally accurate as Match cut rifling - at any distance
Jerry
OK, well obviously if the targets are set up in MOA then yeah, you'd want an MOA scope
But, if you have a target at an unknown distance with no reference in MOA, then it seems somewhat easier. It's not like white-tail deer walk around with an MOA grid stapled to their broadsides
Anyhow, are you down with him going for an NF? Or would you have some other recommendation?
Glock4ever
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Edmonton, AB
Jerry, I would say that it doesn't matter if you go MIL or MOA as long as your reticle and turret are matched. i.e. if I am looking at any size target I simply measure the correction with my reticle (MOA or MIL) and then simply dial in. It is when you have a Mil Reticle and your adjustments are in MOA that the fun starts to begin.
And Match button rifling barrels are equally accurate as Match cut rifling - at any distance
Jerry
Absolutely. The best of any barrel type is as good as the best of any other. ...just making sure you get the best is the issue!!
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
OK, well obviously if the targets are set up in MOA then yeah, you'd want an MOA scope
But, if you have a target at an unknown distance with no reference in MOA, then it seems somewhat easier. It's not like white-tail deer walk around with an MOA grid stapled to their broadsides
Anyhow, are you down with him going for an NF? Or would you have some other recommendation?
The NF is a nice product and the reticle selection is tops. They are heavy and pricey which may be negative to some.
There are up and coming competitors that offer similar glass and mechanicals for ALOT less money. Reticle choice is still lacking but still useable. I can recommend Sightron SIII (2008 versions ONLY), Nikon, and Bushnell Elites. Of course, there are Leupolds that focus on tactical and target applications but some are pretty pricey too.
Like a custom action vs a Savage/Stevens action. Some will see the value in spending more money. For F class, both will shoot the same.
As for ranging in the field, subtension is highly problematic at distances beyond 500yds. The error is quite significant. More then enough for min of bad guy but not for staying inside a clay pigeon.
Whether you are doing the mental gymnastics in MOA or mils, you are still doing math in the field. And as for ranging deer in the field, are all deer exactly the same size? Creating another large source of error.
Accurate ranging will be the domain of the laser rangefinder....PERIOD.
With all things, apply the right tool to the task and environment. There really isn't a wrong choice, just a bad application of said choice. Pity there is no such thing as a modular scope where you can change the dials/reticles as applications change.
would save us thousands$$$$$
glock, if you use a 2nd focal plane variable scope, then reticle and turrent doesn't matter as they would only agree at one mag level. I have also found that what the turrent does and what the reticle actually subtends can be quite different from desired.
Consistent, and repeatable but not so many mins/mils or whatever. I always field check my gear and make the necessary corrections so everything agrees.
Jerry
Yes it is but contact the ORA as spots are filling fast.
There is a link of their website to the organizer.
I will be there, introduce yourself if you make it.
The shoot will be at the Amiens range. Starts at 8.30. Through the base and follow along the road. Bring a rifle with scope. Also your PAL and you will be asked for photo ID at the gate entering the base.
Yes spectators are allowed.
