Norinco m14 vs. Springfield m14
- Thread starter kidbear68
- Start date
If I don't get USGI parts, will my #### will fall off ?
No Hungry it wont fall off the SAI M1A or Norinco M14S is not radioactive (mind you my Accupoint is!
), but you wont be as cool as the faux USGI M14 "crowd". Dimitri
I know virtually nothing about these rifles, but I do like the M1A and have thought about buying one.
I just looked at some of the posts in this thread and have a quick question regarding the forged vs cast issue. Isn't the quality of the metal also very important? I mean, if you use crappy metal and forge it, is the end product better than a modern high quality steel cast piece? I mean better for this particular component.
I just looked at some of the posts in this thread and have a quick question regarding the forged vs cast issue. Isn't the quality of the metal also very important? I mean, if you use crappy metal and forge it, is the end product better than a modern high quality steel cast piece? I mean better for this particular component.
Nope, the number one reason above all all is the cost. Forging is cheap in large quantity and casting at the time was not up to par like it is today (a properly cast product will be a easy 90-95% of a forged product). So crappy material = crappy part no matter what the method used to form it.
Dimitri
Cast
Trouble is - Springfield receivers are contracted out - Mexico , S. America ?
They could be sand cast in backyards - You know norcs are forged properly .
The preferred Camp Perry rifles have norc receivers and G.I. parts
Trouble is - Springfield receivers are contracted out - Mexico , S. America ?
They could be sand cast in backyards - You know norcs are forged properly .
The preferred Camp Perry rifles have norc receivers and G.I. parts
Eh my newish off the line (December 2007) wasn't cast in someones back yard nor was it sand casted. I have seen many castings from many suppliers and methods, and a cheap casting is pretty clear to see once you start to machine it.
Most hilarious thing about SAI using castings though, everyone keeps mentioning how "bad" M1A cast receivers are yet no one seems to mind Ruger doing it for many years (early 60's) on what all of their products and even offers it as a outsourcing shop to make cast in the raw firearm parts (Pine Tree Castings).
As for the Chinese "forgings", no offense but I think you'd be dumb to believe anything they said. Kind of like how "Quality" "O1" or "A2" tool steel tooling (according to them) that they make go dead soft after taking off the hardened shell off on a grinder because its any metal they had available then they case hardened it.
Dimitri
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As for the Chinese "forgings", no offense but I think you'd be dumb to believe anything they said. Kind of like how "Quality" "O1" or "A2" tool steel tooling (according to them) that they make go dead soft after taking off the hardened shell off on a grinder because its any metal they had available then they case hardened it.
Dimitri
This is one of the reasons I try to avoid Chinese products like the plague. But the M1A is just so darned expensive that I've never taken the plunge.
Dimitri,
if you have never heard of Springfield Armory M1A rifles not taking US GI parts, than you just have not been listening.
So I am going to explain a few things to you, as I have learned them from REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE, not from listening to Internet chit chat.
I have actual real world EXPERIENCE with building/accurising/repairing my own PERSONAL M-14 type rifles including, at last count:
3 doz USGI GENUINE M14 rifles
3 doz PLUS Chinese M-14 rifles, most of them with some or all USGI parts, including builds that started with half a doz brand new stripped receivers.
5 Springfield Armory M1 A rifles, ranging from shot out standard [ non chrome lined barrel put away wet and never cleaned for a decade ], right up to full house SUPER match. The Super match needed some repairs when I got it [ the so called "unitised" gas assembly needed to be replaced]. In fact, in my personal experience, and as posted on MANY US M-14 chat groups, many SA M1A rifles do indeed require some "tweaking", even brand new ones.
ESPECIALLY the brand new ones.
My standard SA M1A was built into a full house target rifle, and yes Virginia, it TOOK ABOUT FOUR HOURS EXTRA WORK to fit the bolt and the op rod.
The SA receiver did NOT have the half round cut at the bottom to allow the bolt roller to go all the way down [ a NOTORIOUS AND WELL KNOWN SA Quality control FAILURE that pretty well guarantees your bolt will beat the roller to death pdq ]. The LEFT lug was out of spec, so required about twice as much lapping in to fit for proper/even/full lug bearing. PLUS, the as new US GI op rod also required a LOT of scraping and polishing inside the SA receiver op rod track, before it would move at all, let alone slide freely.
Also, on MANY SA receivers, the dimension is so far off between the scope mount hole and the dovetail for the charger guide, that SOLID MILSPEC dimension scope mounts will not always fit. This is why Smith and the others put that adjustable washer under the scope mount bolt ... to help adjust for the notorious and well known SA receiver dimension issues. And this is why those top quality ARMS mounts don't always fit the SA receivers.
Every Chinese receiver I've worked on, including fitting ALL us gi parts to a brand new or well used stripped receiver, took the parts with only minor fitting. And I still have not found one that won't take an ARMS mount.
So, CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW??
LAZ 1
if you have never heard of Springfield Armory M1A rifles not taking US GI parts, than you just have not been listening.
So I am going to explain a few things to you, as I have learned them from REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE, not from listening to Internet chit chat.
I have actual real world EXPERIENCE with building/accurising/repairing my own PERSONAL M-14 type rifles including, at last count:
3 doz USGI GENUINE M14 rifles
3 doz PLUS Chinese M-14 rifles, most of them with some or all USGI parts, including builds that started with half a doz brand new stripped receivers.
5 Springfield Armory M1 A rifles, ranging from shot out standard [ non chrome lined barrel put away wet and never cleaned for a decade ], right up to full house SUPER match. The Super match needed some repairs when I got it [ the so called "unitised" gas assembly needed to be replaced]. In fact, in my personal experience, and as posted on MANY US M-14 chat groups, many SA M1A rifles do indeed require some "tweaking", even brand new ones.
ESPECIALLY the brand new ones.
My standard SA M1A was built into a full house target rifle, and yes Virginia, it TOOK ABOUT FOUR HOURS EXTRA WORK to fit the bolt and the op rod.
The SA receiver did NOT have the half round cut at the bottom to allow the bolt roller to go all the way down [ a NOTORIOUS AND WELL KNOWN SA Quality control FAILURE that pretty well guarantees your bolt will beat the roller to death pdq ]. The LEFT lug was out of spec, so required about twice as much lapping in to fit for proper/even/full lug bearing. PLUS, the as new US GI op rod also required a LOT of scraping and polishing inside the SA receiver op rod track, before it would move at all, let alone slide freely.
Also, on MANY SA receivers, the dimension is so far off between the scope mount hole and the dovetail for the charger guide, that SOLID MILSPEC dimension scope mounts will not always fit. This is why Smith and the others put that adjustable washer under the scope mount bolt ... to help adjust for the notorious and well known SA receiver dimension issues. And this is why those top quality ARMS mounts don't always fit the SA receivers.
Every Chinese receiver I've worked on, including fitting ALL us gi parts to a brand new or well used stripped receiver, took the parts with only minor fitting. And I still have not found one that won't take an ARMS mount.
So, CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW??
LAZ 1
Ok, I was joking around a bit but everyone needs to step back and chill out. No need to take any of this personally. I have extensive M14/M1A experience but I don't take any of this personally...neither should anyone else...this is the internet and we have lots of experts....so everyone relax.
I would recommend we close this and someone else ask the same question again so we can do this weekly.....
I would recommend we close this and someone else ask the same question again so we can do this weekly.....
The USGI drawing allows for a .020" tolerance on the clip guide from the front of the receiver total allowable variance is .023" from the center of the scope mounting bolt to the clip guide horizontally and another .013" vertically in total variance. With that much variation you NEED the adjustable washer no matter what the make of M14/M1A.
Mounting the scope on the clip guide mount is aftermarket idea on a receiver that was never meant to be used that way.
The 2 splines and the mounting hole is all that is really needed to properly secure a scope mount. Hence why it was all that was planned for.
Dimitri
FWIW, the M1A receiver is not cast in some third world sweatshop - its done in Montreal. Where the rest of the parts are sourced, I do not know. Parts have been obtained from different sources over the years. Best ones were all GI assembled on the new receivers - but that was a long time ago. Basically same idea as using all GI parts on a Chinese receiver.
Get what you want, as long as either or both remain available.
Get what you want, as long as either or both remain available.
+1. When I was doing my 870 AR15 stock adapter thing I looked at having alphacasting (a canadian company) do the casting work for me....in researching them I wound up with a bunch of propoganda material (I wish I would have kept it!) from them that had pictures of their M1A castings. Rooting around their website this morning they have one picture of their M1A casting for springfield:
http://www.alphacasting.com/realisations/police.html
Anyway...I like (and have and shoot) them both....
Brobee
