Norinco m14 vs. Springfield m14

sprint said:
You'll be happy with them.

Some folk simply sit at extremes of the "issue" (non-existent IMO) because of good or bad experience with one product or the other. Then there are the fan-boys who desperately want to believe they didn't blow money one way or the other and cling desperately to brand beliefs. You'll hear endless rants from this crowd regarding reliability, metallurgy, group size, etc.
  • The world is ending, and you need that one reliable rifle that will last you through the coming apocalypse;
  • Never mind the fact that 7.62mm surplus is going to become so expensive that the average guy might be able to shoot that f**ker 'long term' even if it was made from pot-metal;
  • The hallmark is usually not how GOOD one brand is. God knows, forums are filled with 's**t part' this and 'doesn't fit' that. The REAL hallmark is in-depth tails of how s**tty the OTHER guy's brand is;
  • If my brand 'X' rifle can't print today, there's usually some bulls**t excuse to go with it;
  • Most of the fan-boy forums and for-sale posts read like 'quest for parts:the great dissapointment'. -- Yeah -- because gun nutz never start looking elsewhere for a lower maintenance precision platform. :rolleyes: ; and,
  • Oh, I almost forgot my favorite... god forbid that you buy from the wrong side and hasten us towards said foreboding doom.

Many others among us have owned, shot and enjoyed both for what they are.


This is an internet forum after all. Sometimes you just need to be careful not to step in the bulls**t.
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Well said as always.... :cool:
 
tiriaq said:
Would not any residual stresses in a forging disappear when the item was subsequently heat treated?
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Yes in high alloy steels that is the case.

Throttle_monkey1 said:
If the norc receiver is hot forged, there wouldn't be too much difference between the two. If done at any temp below around 725 C it will be better than cast.
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Execpt 8620 is forged at 1800-2200F (~1000C) and the Norinco steel would be about the same.

tiriaq said:
TRW M-14 receivers are surface hardened 8620 steel are they not? Were the blanks forged prior to machining?
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Yes, they were forged to cut machining time (in a manual world making mass production its a must to save off time, making forging appear "cheap"). So Forging the raw stock then machining then heat treat.

Throttle_monkey1 said:
There's a reason people pay extra for a hammer forged barrel.
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Last I checked Hammer forged barrels work on similar principles (ie its a method of forging) but the reasoning is quite different to a receiver forging. A Hammer forged barrel is not finished machined generally and gets put on the gun AS IS, making mass production more consistent and a hell of a lot cheaper then say cutting each one on normal machines. Were as a receiver forging WILL be finished machined.

You can get a BRAND new "special" hammer forged barrel with the action, stock and trigger of a rifle thrown in free assembled to boot! for the cost of a cut rifled quality barrel. :cool:

Dimitri
 
99.9% of all forgings have some machining/grinding/polishing done to them. The forging process gets the basic shape, and finishing work is done.

AR's are aluminum. Any quality AR lower will be forged as well, and then machined.

I don't claim to know the chemical makeup of the alloy in the norc receiver. I don't even know how norinco forges em. But I do know most higher quality products are forged (compared to cast).
 
1899 said:
Crankshafts.
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Some are, not all, and that's because of the material they use. Its air hardening so they get a harder crankshaft without the need to fully heat treat them (only induction harden the ends for the bearings). Which is better for mass production. However the best crankshafts use better materials that are not easily forged and are therefor made from bar stock and get nitrated (very nice method to heat treat something in my opinion) afterwords, costing much more then the forged versions.

Actually come to think of it I would pay to have a M1A/M14 type receiver nitrated instead of carburized.

Dimitri
 
Hijack!

Sorry, could not resist, but I was over at a friend's tonight, he showed me his USGI M14 with bakelite stock, fell in love with it:runaway: Too bad it's a converted auto. I asked him to let em know when he is ready to sell and we can put it up on Gunnutz. Sorry for the poor pics, had to take them in a hurry:)
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joe n said:
Sorry, could not resist, but I was over at a friend's tonight, he showed me his USGI M14 with bakelite stock, fell in love with it:runaway: Too bad it's a converted auto. I asked him to let em know when he is ready to sell and we can put it up on Gunnutz.
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Or, your buddy could hang all of those nice GI parts on a Norc receiver, keep his prohib status (still owns the receiver, ergo the gun and the prohib status) and have a non-restricted semi-auto Mil Spec M14 that he can get out and shoot AND sell later for a premium. :D
 
I work at a CAT dealership. All of our larger gears for big trucks are forged. Then they are hobbed, then they are nitrided. There is a reason CAT doesn't cast a 400 lb sun gear in the 797 trucks.

Our 15 foot cranks are forged too. It's that flow line thing again. The journals are then machined, hardened, and polished.

We did a failure analysis lab in school. A customer brought in some wrenches that had failed. We cut them in half, polished and etched them. There were no flow lines! They were knock off wrenches that had been cast!!
 
Lazerus2000 said:
".... what is wrong with our economy and values these days. The lowest price at any cost is NOT good, imo."

HMMMM!
IMO, what is wrong with our economy is that people are lured by "brand Name" advertising into spending their hard earned $$$ for brand names that are NOT any better than the competition. Advertising obviously works on some people ... there are still buyers lined up for Harley Davidsons when any any sane rider, who has done his homework, would prefer performance and reliability to noise and lack of power. But Harley is not marketing just a motorcycle ... they are marketing a Dream ... just like SA is not marketing a firearm but is marketing an image. And , for me, image does not overide substance and value. So I no longer ride Harleys [ BTDT ... had three ]. My last few bikes were all BMWs ... again they are marketing an image as well as a PERFORMANCE motorcycle ... but at least BMW delivers BOTH!!!

My current ride is a Suzuki Bandit 1200 .... which I enjoy quite well, thank you very much. The Bandit ain't no BMW, but it IS an Incredible VALUE!!!
For me, it is all about VALUE, not about cost ... some of those Tax dollars you pay out end up in my pocket, and believe it or not, I have enough disposable $$$, that if I wanted to, I could but another BMW [ and I probably will some day ] or another Springfield M1A rifle [ and I probably won't ].

For me, a $ 400 NORC M-14/M305, with a few US GI parts, a trip to the chop saw for an 18 3/4" Canuckistan legal shorty barrel, and a few hours fun tweaking it up, is a way better value than a $ 1800 Springfield ... which in my experience, will need some work anyway. Probably MORE work than your average Norc ... and the CAST/off Dimension SA receiver will never be as close to GI spec as the forged NORCS ... so why would I bother? Why spend your tax dollars on expensive things that don't work any better then less expensive things that do the same job [ maybe even a BETTER job ]?

You work hard for you tax money, and I respect that, so I spend your tax dollars carefully and wisely, and select my toys based on VALUE ... not Brand ... or advertising ... or what someone else says is "cool".

I built my very first M-14 shorty [ on a GENUINE US GI M14 ] because I wanted a Springfield "Squad Scout" rifle [ which came with an 18" barrel ], and could not get one with a Canuck legal length barrel. So into the chopsaw ... and the rest is history. Now the very first Genuine shorty M-14 in Canada was mine [ and it's cousin, the very first shorty AR 10 Flat top as well ]. Now that was COOL!!! Cool is leading the pack, not following it.

But if you want to buy a Springfield M1A [ or gawd forbid, a Harley ] go right ahead. Just don't expect me to drink that brand name coolaid along with you.
[;{)
LAZ 1
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Thanks for the great perspective , Laz!

Folks between Sprint, Morpheus32, and Laz2000; they have said it all. Hopefully we don't have to beat this issue to death, just like having another 'bear defense thread' LOL

Unless someone starts up something like "Is the M14 SOPMOD good for bear defense?" thread. :D

Sorry, I cannot take this tread's direction seriously!

Hey, JoeN, thanks for those beautiful pictures. It brought a tear to my eye! That's one of those Isreali M14's imported back in the 80's when we bought them for $ 400 each, non-restricted. I even hunted with my TRW and tagged a bunch of groundhogs using 168 gr. Sierra Match Kings. Using iron sights, too!!

Cheers,
Barney
 
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Thanks Hungry, that is alot of info he did not have..so the stock is Israeli?

Hungry here: That stock is USGI, but re-issued to the IDF from the Americans. Said M14's cannot re-enter the US of A so we canuckistanis got lucky. Enjoy the fondling. Now , remember that it's only a 5 minute job to spin that barrel of the H&R M14 receiver and screw it back on a Norinco M14 receiver (already stripped) and now you still have that 12.x, but you can enjoy all the USGI parts that are now sitting on a non-restricted Norc M14.
 
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Throttle_monkey1 said:
They were knock off wrenches that had been cast!!
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And if they were heat treated they would not have failed from the beginning. :runaway:

Anyways what ever floats everyones boat, I am just trying to point out any production of something done right will work and work well investment casting and forging are pretty similar, even more so once heat treated like the receivers are. I just personally have seen first hand too much cr*p come from China to believe them at their word about how they "properly" make things.

The saying "Believe nothing that you hear and only half of what you see" applies to their production methods.

Dimitri
 
dmitri, even if they were heat treated, they would have been brittle. That's the point. you forge it. it's softer than as-quenched or quench+temper, but it is much tougher, and still has awesome ultimate strength and yield strength too.

I'm not disagreeing with you except that cast+heat treatment is not as good as forging in certain applications. That's why it is done.

Same with casting. Would you forge an engine block? no. waste of time and money. cast it using grey cast iron. Easy to machine, and very resistant to warpage from heat as well. see, in thta instance, cast is waaayyyy better.
 
Yes there are benefits dependent on the application however due to the post machining heat treatment of the receivers there is very little to no difference between a M14/M1A receiver made from a casting, forging or even stock. That's all I am trying to say. ;)

Dimitri
 
what kind of accuracy should one expect from a new out of the box norc m-14? with a decent scope should i be able to hit a 3'x2' gong at 500 yards?
 
Dimitri said:
Yes there are benefits dependent on the application however due to the post machining heat treatment of the receivers there is very little to no difference between a M14/M1A receiver made from a casting, forging or even stock. That's all I am trying to say. ;)

Dimitri
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So when can we have some CGI recievers? :D
 
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