Parker hale m82-m87-C3-C3A1 Rifles

cantom said:
I don't have it in front of me, but the whole sorry story was laid out in Clive Law's Without Warning, about the whole difficulty of acquiring the scopes from Unertl and how difficult he was to deal with. As I recall, did Parker Hale not install the scope mounts on the C3 rifles? Or was that done in house?

Also, I believe an audit was done at one point and the accuracy of the rifles had fallen pretty far off due to wear and use...were they not all shipped back to PH for rebuilds?

I'll have another look at that book.
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Clive only goes into minor quams that the CF had with Unertl - by the way he was a real old fart who had bees in his bonnet. Talked to the man myself before he died - talk about the rudest guy to deal with. His wife and son were no better.

The mounts were designed by John Unertl but built by Parker Hale - that is a little known fact. All C3's(M82/1200TX) were destroyed and new rifles were procurred for the C3A1 so called refit.

I know full well that the rifle wasn't rebuilt, it was a totally new purchase - I'm sure everyone knows that governments don't lie to the people whose money they spend! The only thing that remotely might have been reused was the stocks off the C3 - but in my travels when the rifles came back to Canada - every one of the stocks I saw, and I saw a lot of em, was brand spanking new

As to the cost of a C3A1 scope mount - sky's the limit. I was a a US Gunshow about 5 years ago and a collector had one on the table - to the tune of $800 US. So if you do find one get ready for sticker shock, or pray he doesn't know what he has and you get it for cheap.

Cheers, Carl
 
tps50701 said:
Clive only goes into minor quams that the CF had with Unertl - by the way he was a real old fart who had bees in his bonnet. Talked to the man myself before he died - talk about the rudest guy to deal with. His wife and son were no better.

The mounts were designed by John Unertl but built by Parker Hale - that is a little known fact. All C3's(M82/1200TX) were destroyed and new rifles were procurred for the C3A1 so called refit.

I know full well that the rifle wasn't rebuilt, it was a totally new purchase - I'm sure everyone knows that governments don't lie to the people whose money they spend! The only thing that remotely might have been reused was the stocks off the C3 - but in my travels when the rifles came back to Canada - every one of the stocks I saw, and I saw a lot of em, was brand spanking new

As to the cost of a C3A1 scope mount - sky's the limit. I was a a US Gunshow about 5 years ago and a collector had one on the table - to the tune of $800 US. So if you do find one get ready for sticker shock, or pray he doesn't know what he has and you get it for cheap.

Cheers, Carl
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Carl- You mentioned the difficulty of installing the mounts...were there rifles in stores that didn't have mounts on them from PH? Did PH install them on the new C3A1 rifles?
 
cantom said:
Carl- You mentioned the difficulty of installing the mounts...were there rifles in stores that didn't have mounts on them from PH? Did PH install them on the new C3A1 rifles?
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C3 - 1200TX/M82
C3A1 - M87

This is so everyone who wants to respond doesn't confuse the heck out of me:D:slap:

Now the mounts I described were for the C3, not the C3A1. They were a royal pain to install new pads - not as easy as one might think.

The C3A1 mounts were basically almost a plug and play kind of part. They were iniatially installed by PH when the C3A1 was built. They were also procurred as spare parts - nato stock numbers to prove that as well.

I've replaced the sight bases on 3 C3's in my career. Never did any C3A1's - just set up 10 C3A1's that never had Unertl's installed when they were built.

Incidently, these were all in wood stocks. Diemaco/Colt Canada did the stock changeover to the McMillan A2's, around 99-01, just before OP Anaconda in 02 - first time they were fielded in Afghanistan.

The 10 I did went to Bosnia with the RCR's, in the mid to late 90's.

Yes Redman - your government destroy's rather then sell weapons to civilians. The last time we ever sold to civilians was the FNC1A1's to the service rifle shooter's in the late 60's early 70's - just before Diemaco came along. The government has this funny notion that it's citizens shouldn't have what they use!:D

Cheers' Carl
 
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Great info as always Carl.

It is funny how the goverment thinks. if they only how many replicas were out in the civy market they might allow some of them out to the civy market.

Even if they allowed some of the components out for people to buy.
Just taking a stb I bet that the real C3A1 complete would bring around 8-10 grand each think of the income they could make.

Carl do you have any pics still of the original C3 or C3a1
 
redneck74 said:
Great info as always Carl.

It is funny how the goverment thinks. if they only how many replicas were out in the civy market they might allow some of them out to the civy market.

Even if they allowed some of the components out for people to buy.
Just taking a stb I bet that the real C3A1 complete would bring around 8-10 grand each think of the income they could make.

Carl do you have any pics still of the original C3 or C3a1
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By my estimation, a real C3A1 out there would command a lot more than $10K - say closer to $30+. We're talking about a really rare piece with what has legally escaped the system. Just think what a real Van Orten M70 goes for - $45-50K in the US - same rifle Hathcock used in Vietnam. Tell you the truth, I'd love to get a McMillan Tac50 - in CF trim, now there would be something really cool.

Guess us mere mortals can only own C14 Timberwolfs then:D

I find it really funny how PGW wasn't contract bound to never release these to civilians. I'm thinking that because it was their own in house design and not government was the reason why we can own these today. If I got one of these, I'd definitely have somebody make me a FAKE suppressor so that it would look cool on the barrel - call me sentimental:D!

Ah well, such is life.

Cheers, Carl
 
delta1 said:
Carl:
What type of bedding was used on the C3A1. And just what area's where bedded. Was the tang bedded around and under or just skim bedded, also how was the lug section bedded. I am trying to get this girl as close to as possible.
Regards Tim
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We initally used Bisonite, but immediately switched to Devcon Steel. Reason being that the bedding crumbled and didn't hold up in the desert heat of the 1st Gulf War. Not bad for a brand new rifle:rolleyes:!

The receiver rings are bedded around the recoil bar and forward about 1.5" of the receiver face. Also just around the area at the back of the widest part of the receiver just before the trigger. Kinda hard to explain unless you have a receiver in front of you. Very little was placed near the tang, because it caused stress on the action/stock.

Cheers, Carl
 
I have fitted the trigger guard and the clipguide now and have just finished skim bedding it. clip works well now and feeds like it should. Took me most of the day to get it just right.

Carl:
Thank you for the bedding information, That is how i shall proceed with it
Regards Tim
 
delta1 said:
I do think this is a good thread to sticky, have the mods change the name to to C3, C3A1 or some such thing. That way just one spot to look for this information and pictures befor we lose it to the difficult to find realm.
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Was thinking the same thing... This info would be impossible for someone to find by just scouring around the web. I feel we are privileged to have a weapons' tech with excellent memory who has such thorough knowledge of both generations of this rifle, both in terms of history and specifications. It's got my vote for sticky for sure.

Carl,

I can't (and dare not) question the technical aspects you've brought up re: the c3/c3a1... But I have to respectfully disagree that it would cost 30K$ for one that gets sold over surplus (or even makes it to the civilian market somehow without a surplus release). The Viet-Nam era M40 was used in a controversial war that had an iconic sniper using it in legendary engagements... The C3A1 is little known (try looking up quality photos of it), was used by anonymous (although highly skilled) operators and was based on a rifle by a company that few remember. In my very humble opinion, 8-10K$ is the most it would fetch.
 
redman said:
Was thinking the same thing... This info would be impossible for someone to find by just scouring around the web. I feel we are privileged to have a weapons' tech with excellent memory who has such thorough knowledge of both generations of this rifle, both in terms of history and specifications. It's got my vote for sticky for sure.

Carl,

I can't (and dare not) question the technical aspects you've brought up re: the c3/c3a1... But I have to respectfully disagree that it would cost 30K$ for one that gets sold over surplus (or even makes it to the civilian market somehow without a surplus release). The Viet-Nam era M40 was used in a controversial war that had an iconic sniper using it in legendary engagements... The C3A1 is little known (try looking up quality photos of it), was used by anonymous (although highly skilled) operators and was based on a rifle by a company that few remember. In my very humble opinion, 8-10K$ is the most it would fetch.
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Guys,

Seeing as I've contributed immensly to this thread and would hate to see it disappear, I've requested to Boltgun, to make this a sticky with a title change as well.

If any other mods are watching, please take this under consideration as well.

Thanks so much, Carl
 
Moderators.....Pls make this Thread a sticky....it's a great resource.

For those wading through this info you need to clearly understand the differences between the C3 and the C3A1 as competently described by Carl.

The other tibits that would come in handy would be the estimated cost of components for each build. I'm certain that there must be enough components out there to build a a few C3's and maybe a C3A1.

If any one has a MacMillan stock for a C3A1 I would be willing to talk to them about a purchase or trade. I've got a first generation wood stock and a couple of miscellaneous components for the C3A1 that I picked up in various deals over the past few years that I would sell or trade.

Cheers,

Ron
 
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Absolutely, A sticky is needed here. The information given by member's on the board here especialy Carl are soon to be lost by attrition alone.
Carl's hands on knowledge is priceless to those of us doing a build.
If we can get some blow up parts diagrams of the C3 and C3A1 that would be a plus for this thread. Plus pictures of those doing a clone or real build.

Carl
What was the weight of the rifles ( bare with no pod assembly) Also what projectle was most used. Was it just standard Nato issue rounds.
Regards Tim
 
Mods:
Let me be the first to say thank you. This is and should be much appreciated for those of us interested in these fine rifles, and to those of us trying to build such a rifle. Be it a clone or for those lucky enough to gather the parts for an exact build.
To all who have, needed information and pictures of a build or of actual rifles here is our chance to expand each other's knowledge base.
Regards Tim
 
delta1 said:
Mods:
Let me be the first to say thank you. This is and should be much appreciated for those of us interested in these fine rifles, and to those of us trying to build such a rifle. Be it a clone or for those lucky enough to gather the parts for an exact build.
To all who have, needed information and pictures of a build or of actual rifles here is our chance to expand each other's knowledge base.
Regards Tim
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Dear Mods,

I'd also like to thank you for making this a sticky.

Now everybody can find this valuable info.

To the rest of the people who wanted it, here ya go - I asked and it was received very well.

Cheers, Carl
 
delta1 said:
If we can get some blow up parts diagrams of the C3 and C3A1 that would be a plus for this thread.
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Ask and ye shall receive:
explode_11.gif


More info here.
 
Hey Carl:

maybe you can clarify for me the barrel on this pic is drilled on the muzzel and I have looked at all my books and they show the same on some and not on others.
My barrel is not drilled and tapped. So is this somthng that they did after they were instaled or did the change there mind on drilling and tapping them at a latter date.
 
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redneck74 said:
Hey Carl:

maybe you can clarify for me the barrel on this pic is drilled on the muzzel and I have looked at all my books and they show the same on some and not on others.
My barrel is not drilled and tapped. So is this somthng that they did after they were instaled or did the change there mind on drilling and tapping them at a latter date.
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That picture isn't correct for a C3A1.

The C3A1 never had iron sights - period! Don't drill your barrel or it will be incorrect.
 
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