VZ-58s and more...FAQs are Post 1
- Thread starter Deckard
- Start date
Making a rail that will fit in the VZ58 receiver reliefs is easy. Its been done a long time ago. The problem is that the rail sits too far back for comfortable use with anything but a red dot and even if you do use a scope ejection is still an issue. Having had AK mount optics in that configuration I can attest to the issues first hand, thats why we made the rail we did.
I don’t know where all this hate and bashing is coming from 
So, I can’t watch the UFC
or go at the mosque for my prayers
without you guys bashing and flaming me while I’m gone.
I will try to explain as good as I could.
Try an AK side rail on a VZ gun and see for yourself
how the scope sits on a side, regardless of the mount.
... or maybe just let’s say that you had absolutely no idea
about this mount before I posted my pictures
and you are trying to learn (google) while you type...
Of course, almost anything can be put on airsoft (unfortunately).
(They are asking me over $750 for a Dutch Marine stock for HK MP5E
although there are no users of that gun in this country.
That is because the stock can be shamelessly put on airsoft guns
and there are so many airsofters out there
that will cause a high request and consequently high prices}.
However, the UTG mount is cheap (Leapers)
and relatively easy to find.
In US is under $40.
In Canada I would expect it
to be double that at the very very max.
It is a decent mount for its price.
People are using UTG stocks on VZ, SKS, etc, since long
(heck, I have seen them even on 308 guns)
and I am yet to see one bend, deformed, etc as you say.
But hey, you don't have to like it.
Oh yeah, and please post some reference that sez
it was designed for airsoft.
Generation 5 (Quick Detach) has the same type
of tightening system like the Belomo
and almost the same like other eastern mounts.
Generation 3 UTG can be tighten even more by 3 screws.
the UTG and Belomo are almost the same height.
However, this rail and mount (from my last post)
is intended primarily for scope, and it will be used with a scope.
But reversely, the top handguard can accept a scope too.
One of the best practical setups I’ve seen for scoping the VZ
is handgun scope (long eye relief, small diameter, low)
with crosshairs and illuminated centre mounted on the top handguard.
I think it was 5.5 or maybe 6 power.
I was really surprised to see how comfortable and natural it was.
The builder of that system is a member here
and he has a long experience in Scandinavian IPSC, tac-rifle and such.
To each, its own.
One way is “just”, the other way is “simple”.
I fail to see the problem.
I wanted it to sit EXACTLY where it sits right now.
It was meant to sit where it sits right now.
I am sorry if you don’t understand from my pictures, so I will explain.
As you can see, the system rail/mount from my pic
tries to use readily available mounts on the market
that have picatinny rails on top in such a way that:
1. It places the scope right above the bore center, and
2. It allows the use of the factory open sights.
Like this. See?
I (and few others) have been looking on the market
for a side-rail system that does all that and didn’t find one.
Is there any out there? I would like to see it,
so anyone can please post info (pics/links) if you know of one.
So, above the bore (but within 1/16” is ok)
and un-obstructing the factory sights.
so the scope rings can be moved one or two notches forward,
it will give some extra relief if need may be.
(The UTG has 12 cuts in the picatinny rail,
and the Belomo is even longer, by 1 cut and 1 land.
I did not find any readily available mount
with picatinny on top that is longer than that.
If someone found one, please post).
Also, unlike 3 years ago when everybody was using factory stocks,
today a lot of people are using aftermarket stocks
that are longer and/or adjustable,
so they can find their most comfortable position
in relation to the scope, style of shooting, etc.
There are a lot of people that use AR stocks (adjustable length).
I guess it is my turn now to say that a shell deflector
is very easy to make - sorry, I couldn’t resist
One can drill a couple of holes into the mount
to hook up a piece of bend sheet metal.
Even more, the UTG mount has a couple of holes from the factory
that can be used to put a shell deflector
(presumably it won't obstruct the sites).
There was a member here specializing in kydex deflectors
(but I think now he’s too busy dating Queen Fattifah).
Let me know if there are any issues
in addition to the ones I was happy to defuse
So, I can’t watch the UFC
or go at the mosque for my prayers
without you guys bashing and flaming me while I’m gone.
I will try to explain as good as I could.
No.
Try an AK side rail on a VZ gun and see for yourself
how the scope sits on a side, regardless of the mount.
Well, make your mind. Is it an AK mount or an airsoft mount?
... or maybe just let’s say that you had absolutely no idea
about this mount before I posted my pictures
and you are trying to learn (google) while you type...
Of course, almost anything can be put on airsoft (unfortunately).
(They are asking me over $750 for a Dutch Marine stock for HK MP5E
although there are no users of that gun in this country.
That is because the stock can be shamelessly put on airsoft guns
and there are so many airsofters out there
that will cause a high request and consequently high prices}.
However, the UTG mount is cheap (Leapers)
and relatively easy to find.
In US is under $40.
In Canada I would expect it
to be double that at the very very max.
It is a decent mount for its price.
People are using UTG stocks on VZ, SKS, etc, since long
(heck, I have seen them even on 308 guns)
and I am yet to see one bend, deformed, etc as you say.
But hey, you don't have to like it.
Oh yeah, and please post some reference that sez
it was designed for airsoft.
No.
Generation 5 (Quick Detach) has the same type
of tightening system like the Belomo
and almost the same like other eastern mounts.
Generation 3 UTG can be tighten even more by 3 screws.
Thank you
As you can see from my pic where they are side by side,
the UTG and Belomo are almost the same height.
Yes, it could. An equally good location for reddot is the top hanguard.
However, this rail and mount (from my last post)
is intended primarily for scope, and it will be used with a scope.
But reversely, the top handguard can accept a scope too.
One of the best practical setups I’ve seen for scoping the VZ
is handgun scope (long eye relief, small diameter, low)
with crosshairs and illuminated centre mounted on the top handguard.
I think it was 5.5 or maybe 6 power.
I was really surprised to see how comfortable and natural it was.
The builder of that system is a member here
and he has a long experience in Scandinavian IPSC, tac-rifle and such.
To each, its own.
Please make me understand.
One way is “just”, the other way is “simple”.
I fail to see the problem.
I don’t want it to sit lower (whatever “multimount” means),
I wanted it to sit EXACTLY where it sits right now.
It was meant to sit where it sits right now.
I am sorry if you don’t understand from my pictures, so I will explain.
As you can see, the system rail/mount from my pic
tries to use readily available mounts on the market
that have picatinny rails on top in such a way that:
1. It places the scope right above the bore center, and
2. It allows the use of the factory open sights.
Like this. See?
I (and few others) have been looking on the market
for a side-rail system that does all that and didn’t find one.
Is there any out there? I would like to see it,
so anyone can please post info (pics/links) if you know of one.
So, above the bore (but within 1/16” is ok)
and un-obstructing the factory sights.
That is the purpose of the picatinny rail on top,
so the scope rings can be moved one or two notches forward,
it will give some extra relief if need may be.
(The UTG has 12 cuts in the picatinny rail,
and the Belomo is even longer, by 1 cut and 1 land.
I did not find any readily available mount
with picatinny on top that is longer than that.
If someone found one, please post).
Also, unlike 3 years ago when everybody was using factory stocks,
today a lot of people are using aftermarket stocks
that are longer and/or adjustable,
so they can find their most comfortable position
in relation to the scope, style of shooting, etc.
There are a lot of people that use AR stocks (adjustable length).
Then a shell deflector would be advised, right?
I guess it is my turn now to say that a shell deflector
is very easy to make - sorry, I couldn’t resist
One can drill a couple of holes into the mount
to hook up a piece of bend sheet metal.
Even more, the UTG mount has a couple of holes from the factory
that can be used to put a shell deflector
(presumably it won't obstruct the sites).
There was a member here specializing in kydex deflectors
(but I think now he’s too busy dating Queen Fattifah).
Let me know if there are any issues
in addition to the ones I was happy to defuse
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AK Mount
Given you can mount whatever you want on the VZ in any configuration you like. I mounted the Belomo rail you showed in the same configuration you have and had the issues I mentioned before which was the reason we developed an adjustable muting system. Let me be the first to say that if people want to adapt an AK rail like this one:
You will attain the results posted. You will need to take a file to the two ends of the rail on the mounting surface to follow the contour of the receiver but it works. I personally don't like the AK mount on the VZ, if you look at pictures of AKs with rail mounts you can see that the rail is about 2"-3" further forward on the action then the relief your using on the side of the VZ.
But buyer beware there are some limitations to this setup and as I can tell you from experience drilling holes into the side of your receiver only to find that you didn't get the results you hoped for sux. I used the longer Belomo rail and an AR stock and *for me* the only way to get a comfortable eye relief was to have the stock LOP extended beyond comfort. That defeats the purpose and puts the rifle out of balance but I will be the first to admit that everyone is different and YMMV. If this works for you then have at'er.
My only point here is that I want my mount to work with the rifle as its comfortable for me to use. Thats why we came up with a rail that offers multiple points for eye relief and works with AK mounts or SVD mounts.
I'd post up some pics of the AK mounts I used but I sold them a while ago. I'll say it again I found the AK mount works fine with a red dot although a bit high. Also if you setup your stock to work with the higher mounted optic irons become useless anyhow, which is why I now suggest SVD mounts.
Shell Deflector
There is no great magic to making a shell deflector, Kasat made on that worked with his setup and others have just drilled and tapped the receiver to attach the deflector directly to the side of the rifle. I have 1/8 kydex here and once again IMHO its no good for *this* application because of the flex. If he who's name we shall not speak (Deckard) wants to use it on the T97 or whatever it will probably work fine. On the VZ you are asking the deflector to change the direction of ejection almost 45 degrees and the shells come out with quite a bit of force. Here is a pic of our deflector after product trials:
The steel in this deflector is hardened and will not flex or break but you can clearly see the marking the shells make. On a side not 500 rounds were run through this setup with no stoppages of any kind. We designed our shell deflector so that it is attached to the rail so that the user can use a variety of optics and never worry about the rail. Another side note, the shells not eject at a nice 45 degree angle to the front and right. No more brass bouncing off the top of the range roof!
UTG Mount
When I first saw these about 2 years ago they were marketed for Airsoft, checking the Leapers site today they are listed for the AK. Yes people use airsoft parts on their "real steel" all the time with varying degrees of success and I don't doubt it will function on the VZ. Will it deform over time? That is for you to find out and the rest of us to watch. Does PRC use them on the AK? I doubt it, as they produced Russian optics under license and I've never seen a scoped PRC AK.
Given you can mount whatever you want on the VZ in any configuration you like. I mounted the Belomo rail you showed in the same configuration you have and had the issues I mentioned before which was the reason we developed an adjustable muting system. Let me be the first to say that if people want to adapt an AK rail like this one:
You will attain the results posted. You will need to take a file to the two ends of the rail on the mounting surface to follow the contour of the receiver but it works. I personally don't like the AK mount on the VZ, if you look at pictures of AKs with rail mounts you can see that the rail is about 2"-3" further forward on the action then the relief your using on the side of the VZ.
But buyer beware there are some limitations to this setup and as I can tell you from experience drilling holes into the side of your receiver only to find that you didn't get the results you hoped for sux. I used the longer Belomo rail and an AR stock and *for me* the only way to get a comfortable eye relief was to have the stock LOP extended beyond comfort. That defeats the purpose and puts the rifle out of balance but I will be the first to admit that everyone is different and YMMV. If this works for you then have at'er.
My only point here is that I want my mount to work with the rifle as its comfortable for me to use. Thats why we came up with a rail that offers multiple points for eye relief and works with AK mounts or SVD mounts.
I'd post up some pics of the AK mounts I used but I sold them a while ago. I'll say it again I found the AK mount works fine with a red dot although a bit high. Also if you setup your stock to work with the higher mounted optic irons become useless anyhow, which is why I now suggest SVD mounts.
Shell Deflector
There is no great magic to making a shell deflector, Kasat made on that worked with his setup and others have just drilled and tapped the receiver to attach the deflector directly to the side of the rifle. I have 1/8 kydex here and once again IMHO its no good for *this* application because of the flex. If he who's name we shall not speak (Deckard
) wants to use it on the T97 or whatever it will probably work fine. On the VZ you are asking the deflector to change the direction of ejection almost 45 degrees and the shells come out with quite a bit of force. Here is a pic of our deflector after product trials:
The steel in this deflector is hardened and will not flex or break but you can clearly see the marking the shells make. On a side not 500 rounds were run through this setup with no stoppages of any kind. We designed our shell deflector so that it is attached to the rail so that the user can use a variety of optics and never worry about the rail. Another side note, the shells not eject at a nice 45 degree angle to the front and right. No more brass bouncing off the top of the range roof!
UTG Mount
When I first saw these about 2 years ago they were marketed for Airsoft, checking the Leapers site today they are listed for the AK. Yes people use airsoft parts on their "real steel" all the time with varying degrees of success and I don't doubt it will function on the VZ. Will it deform over time? That is for you to find out and the rest of us to watch. Does PRC use them on the AK? I doubt it, as they produced Russian optics under license and I've never seen a scoped PRC AK.
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- Location
- Manitoba, Canada
Sorry to disrupt the peace, serenity
and the atmosphere of deep meditation and prayer
from this thread.
I wanted to post some pix of a nice rail/mount system
(everybody talks about rails in some other threads).
It works with these mounts:
please give me more info on this mounting system, did you have to tap the reciver?
Just to make sure I've got it right - the russian mounts sit too far to the left of center on most 858's right? I assume that there's no way to mount them so they sit right of center, then shim under the base to move it directly over center?
Russian optics and mounts such like the POSP, PSO, etc do sit to the left as they were designed. I don't see how anyone can suggest that it is too far though? Given its not what western shooters are used to but it has no real effect on accuracy and like anything else you can get used to it. I shoot left handed and have used a wide variety of left offset mounts/optics and although not "ideal" left offset is functional and nothing to be afraid of. That said IMHO there are other mounts better then the BP-02 type that will center your optic over the bore especially if you're mounting a magnified optic.
Simply adding an AK or SVD mount/optic to the VZ is only the beginning of your battle however. There are two issues that must be addressed: shell ejection and eye relief. Most people will find that AK base optics such as the POSP place the optic too high, in fact almost all AK mounts do this, the receiver and dust cover on an AK are higher then the VZ58 and the Russians designed their AK optics/mounts with that in mind. The other issue is that the side rails on the AK and SVD both sit further forward then the lightning cut in the side of the VZ58 where most try to attach AK rails. Once you figure out your eye relief and height issues the real problem with the VZ is shell ejection, even with left offset optics/mounts the shells will still hit the optic unless it is no further forward then the ejection path of spent casings. We literally spent more time and energy designing the shell deflector component of the MultiMount Rail then anything else. Curtton has tried adapting an SKS deflector though so you can ask him how its working out.
In the end we found that the VZ needs more then to simply adapt an AK side rail in order to effectively mount optics.
Simply adding an AK or SVD mount/optic to the VZ is only the beginning of your battle however. There are two issues that must be addressed: shell ejection and eye relief. Most people will find that AK base optics such as the POSP place the optic too high, in fact almost all AK mounts do this, the receiver and dust cover on an AK are higher then the VZ58 and the Russians designed their AK optics/mounts with that in mind. The other issue is that the side rails on the AK and SVD both sit further forward then the lightning cut in the side of the VZ58 where most try to attach AK rails. Once you figure out your eye relief and height issues the real problem with the VZ is shell ejection, even with left offset optics/mounts the shells will still hit the optic unless it is no further forward then the ejection path of spent casings. We literally spent more time and energy designing the shell deflector component of the MultiMount Rail then anything else. Curtton has tried adapting an SKS deflector though so you can ask him how its working out.
In the end we found that the VZ needs more then to simply adapt an AK side rail in order to effectively mount optics.
Hmmm - so beating the old problem to death a further time:
1) The russians designed their optics to sit to the left to avoid strikes on the optic system.
The lightening cut is too far back on the gun - this leads to insufficient eye relief. Putting it further forward not only conflicts with the space allowed with the lightening cut, but with ejections from the gun.
Therefore, when the optics are clear of the ejecting casings they are too close and too high for comfort, and when they are at a comfortable distance and height, they are liable to take a beating from the spent ejecting rounds.
Is this a correct summary?
P.S. - if the russian optics are mounted in the lightening cut, is the cut deep enough to move the center of the scope over the center of the rifle? As I understand it isn't that far that they need to move.
1) The russians designed their optics to sit to the left to avoid strikes on the optic system.
The lightening cut is too far back on the gun - this leads to insufficient eye relief. Putting it further forward not only conflicts with the space allowed with the lightening cut, but with ejections from the gun.
Therefore, when the optics are clear of the ejecting casings they are too close and too high for comfort, and when they are at a comfortable distance and height, they are liable to take a beating from the spent ejecting rounds.
Is this a correct summary?
P.S. - if the russian optics are mounted in the lightening cut, is the cut deep enough to move the center of the scope over the center of the rifle? As I understand it isn't that far that they need to move.
The Russians used left offset optics on the Mosin because of the bolt, after that they just stuck with the design. AKs, SVDs, PSLs etc etc all eject to the side so there is no issue with shell ejection even when optics are centered over the bore, its just what they liked and they have for the most part until the last few years stuck with left offset optics.
I've seen a lot of different adaptations of various Russian MilSpec side rails on VZ58s and there is no way to center the offset optics/mounts over the bore with any of them including the MultiMount Rail, you can replicate the distance of the rail from centerline like we did with the MMR and get optics and mounts designed to center over the bore to do so on the VZ. Otherwise, Wally you're right on the money.
FWIW we addressed all these issues with the MultiMount Rail, function is fantastic and optics work as intended.
I've seen a lot of different adaptations of various Russian MilSpec side rails on VZ58s and there is no way to center the offset optics/mounts over the bore with any of them including the MultiMount Rail, you can replicate the distance of the rail from centerline like we did with the MMR and get optics and mounts designed to center over the bore to do so on the VZ. Otherwise, Wally you're right on the money.
FWIW we addressed all these issues with the MultiMount Rail, function is fantastic and optics work as intended.
I think the Russians centered the scope on the SVT-40, for some reason they didn't carry it through with the SVDs etc.
Many countries other then Russia Including Israel have used side mount, side offset optics. I have heard a lot of theories and I have my own, in the end though the effect on accuracy of side offset optics is negligible.
