M-14 sighting in

If you are the sort that gets to Calgary often, I have a scope on an arms mount that I use from time to time to cure the is it me on the irons, or the gun woes.

Can you post pics of your mount? I have no idea which one milarm is selling. If it is not mating well, it can move.

The gas nut can cause all sorts of issues as well. 120 inch pounds on the gas nut.

Don't get discouraged. The irons on an m14 are awesome. Some norcs require some tweaking there as well, but all you need is a rifle sufficiently better then the shooter so the shooter is always the limiter.
 
May I ask one question: Are all shots fired from the same magazine?

Did you change out the mag or just reload with the same mag?

I might have an answer for you if those shots were not fired from the same mag.
 
Okay it might not be what I was thinking then:

Here's an exc. article from Art Luppino (retired M14 gunsmith you can prolly google his details):



Mags and point of impact [ POI]
________________________________________
Many years ago it was discovered that not all M14 mags when used in the same rifle had the same POI. This problem was discovered during the 200 yd. rapid fire stage. Two shots centered and a tight 8 shot group several inches away.

The Marine shooters took a supply of mags to the 300 yd. line, this gave a bettter line of deflection for test, loaded up the mags with 8 rds. and fired strings until they had two or more mags the impacted in the same place. These mags were marked and used for the season. Scores improved. It was also discovered that these same matched pairs of mags would not necessarily give same POI when used in different rifles. The mags were then numbered to a specific rifle from then on.

This was not a constant problem, but it occures more often than you might expect, next time you are at the range see if your mags shoot on top. Nobody ever figured out why this happens, but I heard an USAF shooter say, " Because the springs give a different headpressure to the bottom of the bolt Dummy". Sounds good to me, USAF????.Art

Matching Magazines for accuracy.
________________________________________
You have all heard of match mags, what this means is, they impact in the same place, not that they are the same brand. It is not unusual for different mags not to impact in the same place on the target, I have seen as much as a 6 inch spread between mags at 200 yards. Here is a acceptable and entertaining method to match you mags. Take several to the range and load them in turn with 8 rounds, fire off the top two or three rounds, remove mag, hand eject the chambered round and proceed on to the next mag with 8 rounds. continue until you have three mags that impact in same place on target, or very close to the same place. You will discover that one of the three mags will shoot the best group, this should be your number ONE mag. which is used for most firing, number two mag for first two in rapid stages. Number three mag is a stand by mag for those rare occasions when you bungle the loading, if you have not done this , you will, so be ready.

The reason for different impact between mags, as it was explained to me many years ago, has to do with head pressure on the bottom of the bolt as it relates to the mag spring pressure in various mags. I Hope this adds to the pleasure of seeing a tight group for all that shoot for that reason. Art Luppino
 
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Carbonrod, yes there is a sight channel under the mount to be able to use the irons.

Spcamno, I think at this point, since its only one mag...the issue lies elsewhere
 
I think something is defenitly wrong. My .22LR can outshoot that, and .22LR's are 100 yards are pushing it.

This is a rifle that can hit man sized targets at 400 yards with irons, I would for sure find the scope as the culprit after I benched it using irons only and found it shot better.
 
Rick65Cat said:
-
-Using American Eagle 150gr FMJ.
Click to expand...

Try using different ammo. I got a really good "deal" on 150 gr American Eagle and bought a lot of it recently. Took it up to the range last week and I think my best group would have been 5 rounds in just under half a foot after shooting 3 boxes!!!! I was getting very seriously pissed off and thought WTF!!!!!! This is not an out of the box Norc. I bought it off Skullboy who did the following to it:

-Norinco barrel shortened to 18.75" and properly indexed
-USGI TRW Bolt lapped and headspaced for .308
-Gas System shimmed and proper indexed
-Rooster33 Op Rod Spring Guide
-USGI Op Rod Spring
-USGI Fiberglass stock
-Norinco Op Rod modified to USGI specs

It now has a DWP cheek rest, ARMS 18 mount with ARMS 22 throw rings and a 3-9 Trijcon Accupoint and I was shooting benched with a Harris Bipod.

At the end of the range session I was very angry and frustrated. I then remembered a friend of mine had given me a box of Gold Medal Match 168 gr BTHP and thought I'd try a 1 inch group after digging it out of my range bag.

Despite my angry state of mind I manage to shoot a 0.857 inch 5 round center-to-center group and all was well again. Anger subsiding.... gone.

Perhaps others have had better luck with American Eagle but I didn't. I reload for 40 S&W and .223 and finally have the components to start .308 and eager to see how my rifle performs.

What I'm trying to say is don't give up on your M-14. Just feed her right and you'll be fine. Good luck!!!


Here's a photo of my target using my cheap digital camera at home intead of my far more expensive one at work. It has my 168 gr group and one of the not so impressive 150 gr groups on it.



 
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Nice video.

The crown on most rifles has a bulge in it, I wonder how taking that away and turning it into a flat surface would affect accuracy?
 
The reason why all rifle muzzle has a bulge is to protect the muzzle where the rifling ends ( land and groves) from damaging by accident (dings / nicks etc).

That's why all target rifles has a huge recess area just further tuck in the end of the rifling to prevent any nicks / damages.
 
So really the most optimal is a perfectly flat crown, it just might be the most durable for rifles out in the bush.

Learn something everyday on these boards..
 
Depends on the use of the firearm as well as your personal preference here what I copied from the net:

Crowning a rifle barrel, in simplest terms, is shaping the muzzle so
the rifling's edge is protected from impact. Most factory barrels have
a round, convex-shaped crown from bore's edge to the barrel's outside
diameter. That's easy to make and finish, plus looking rather pleasing.

The accuracy part of the crown means the land and groove part of the
barrel must let the bullet's base exit evenly all the way around. When
this happens, gas escapes uniformly and evenly around the bullet's base.
If gas escapes unevenly (poor crown, even unsquare bullet bases), the
point of greatest gas release will push the bullet in the opposite
direction and tilt it. Tilted bullets leaving the barrel just don't
shoot straight; how far they move sideways depends on their velocity,
spin rate, and degree of tilt (or yaw, as it's sometimes called).

Some factory barrels have different-shaped crowns. Some will have the
muzzle faced flat at right angles to the bore from outside diameter to
inside bore diameter. Others will have a flat face, but the lands
will be angled back some amount. A counter-bored crown is set back
from the front-most part of the muzzle, then the inside part will be
either flat-faced or angled.

In the late 1950s and early 1960s, a few smallbore and highpower
competitive shooters wore out a few barrels doing tests with different
muzzle face and crown ideas, dimensions, etc. Fired from machine rests,
the results were often opposed to what most folks thought was the best
way to face/crown a rifle barrel's front end for best accuracy. Here's
what they found out produced the best accuracy:

* The face (part from barrel's outside diameter to the groove diameter)
must be centered on bore center. This means turning the barrel with
its center at the exact middle of rotation. This gets the bore edge
of the face perfectly centered.

A flat, eleven-degree face produced the best accuracy with both
smallbore and highpower match rifles. That's 79 degrees back from
the bore axis looking forward; 11 degrees from a plane perpendicular
to the bore axis.

* The crown (part from bore diameter to groove diameter, about .004-in.
in 30 caliber barrels) angle doesn't matter much, as long as the back
of the crown is deeper in the bore than its front. This protects the
bore-edge of the crown.

A round, brass ball charged with fine lapping compound is typically used
after the muzzle's faced to 11 degrees. This way, the crown is concentric
with the bore just like the face.

No other face and crown angles have been as successful in match rifles as
these. If the barrel can't be turned on it's true bore center, then a
flat, zero-degree face/crown is probably best; it'll give the squarest edge
for the bullet to exit.

There's a lot of ideas regarding what's the best crown/face thing to do.
 
in my opinion, witch no one asked for but since it is a open forum i'll give:)
m14 rifles or for that matter any service rifle (fn, c7, m16a1, m16a2, m14). with out modifications are only expected to do a 6 inch group at 200m. the m14 with a unitized gas cylinder, bedded heavy wood stock, nm sights, reamed flash suppressor, tuned trigger housing, ect. is or should do what you want. in other words your expecting a battle grade rifle to function like a national match. also looking at your target shot 1,2,3,4 are in a group 5 is out. 5 is not because of the rifle. its the shooter. same as 6,7,9 are grouped then 8. if the marks on the target are 1" then your rifle is performing to what it shoould with out glass bedding, heavy stock, unitized cylinder, ect. come on it is a historical classic for $500, not a $3000 national match. besides if your after a m21, why? the us army pressed scoped nm m14's as a sniper rifle because that is all they had. thats why alot of snippers used purchased rem700, win70 ect. the us army like all armys are slow. now all services (us) use a bolt action based off the rem 700. being specific. rant off,:confused: i'm adding a few things that came to mind. part of the reason the us got rid of the m21 is the m14 is not a very good scopping platform. the bolt recoil is to violent for all mounts eventualy.
 
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Also check the fired brass. I had a rifle that was the same way. Its biggest problem was the way the chamber was cut. All the brass out of that rifle had a mean wobble to it. You could actually see the runout if you looked close. From what I was told the best remedy for that is to install another barrel. I got a take off from the EE and it shot way better after that.
 
I agreed with king66 being the M14 can never be compare with any decent bolt gun however better accuracy can be achieve here's another writing from Art Luppino (and remember this is all done by "Slow firing")

Accuracy Information from Texas

10 shots under an inch, not so easy.
I take great pride in announcing, even if nobody is too interested, that after more than 30 years of trials and countless quality service rifles, I have fired 10 shots slow fire under one inch at 100 yards; .825" to be exact. I would like to give special thanks to Ted Brown for helping me in the installation of a pillar bedded rear screw and suggesting a no draw trigger group. For those of you that have not reached 73 years of age, there is hope. Art Luppino
________________________________________
Regarding the ten in one inch group. The rifle is a Springfield receiver, ser. no. 039061, barrel is a Canadian Arsenal NM, standard profile, 1.634" headspace, 7.62 MM chamber, TE .250". There are parts form all the makers but no TRW parts. Stock is standard GI walnut bedded with JB Weld, to include pillar rear with quarter twenty-eight screw. The pillar I made out of Alum.. The screw seat in pillar is drilled using 62 degree drill and I machine the bottom of the screw also to 62 degrees to provide more purchase, it does not back out using 45 inch lbs, torque. Trigger group is bedded with fully closed guard giving no draw pressure. Gas system is unitized, welded, piston is slotted. I do use a shim to provide drive back force rather than gas plug pull forward lock up. The HG is a slip fit staked at rear and has some play fore and aft . Rifle was bedded using a standoff fixture rather than barrel devise, draw pressure is what I call four finger break pressure.

I used a Griffin and Howe single screw mount, but there is a gasket between rec. and mount, cast receivers are uneven causing the mounts to not fit flush, resulting in mount movement between shots. The scope is a Lyman Alaskan two and one half power crosshair.

The loads are, LC military match 1965 cases without any neck turning, they were on their fourth firing. WLR primers, with 41.5 4895 IMR, 168 Sierras on top, OAL 2.830". All rounds were made concentric to within .002". Rounds were loaded directly into chamber not from Mag. This was this first time I had used new Redding Match dies. Dies were adjusted using case to get light finger pressure to full lock up, You have to strip the bolt to do this procedure. I allowed two minutes between shots, sandbags were used for support. Perfect conditions during firing, the tenth shot was a bit hard to get off.

The most important aspect of this shooting I believe had to do with the target itself. I turned the target backwards and fitted four black squares into each corner leaving a four inch white cross as the aiming point. The crosshairs stood out clear within this cross, I was not troubled with visual blocking of sight picture. it was easy to line this up and suggest you give it a try.

I am aware that not all the above fits into the current methods of procedure or matching a M1A, I would not be to hasty to disregard some of the older techniques that gave excellent scores. I hope this give interested shooters motivation to get back on the range with the finest Service Rifle ever made.
 
I took of my flash-hider tonight...no, it wasn't welded on and yes, the number on the receiver under the stock starts with a "3".

A close examination of the muzzle crown shows it to be in VERY good condition. no rough edge or "drill chatter". Also, the flash-hider shows no evidence of the bullets grazing one edge. The whole circumferance is "cherry".

king66 in my opinion, witch no one asked for but since it is a open forum i'll give
m14 rifles or for that matter any service rifle (fn, c7, m16a1, m16a2, m14). with out modifications are only expected to do a 6 inch group at 200yrds
Click to expand...
All I want is a 6 inch group at 100 yrds.

also looking at your target shot 1,2,3,4 are in a group 5 is out. 5 is not because of the rifle. its the shooter. same as 6,7,9 are grouped then 8. if the marks on the target are 1" then your rifle is performing to what it shoould
Click to expand...
Ok, I failed to mention that after shots 1,2 and 3 at 100 yrds...I cranked in 20 cliks of elevation to raise the POI. Number 4 is in the same area as 3. Then the hits start to occure higher up, (then down, etc)
 
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