Rauch Tactical Multi Mount Rail a VZ58 / 858 scope mounting rail.

[Dr.Lector]

Two thumbs up for Suprathepeg for the time spent
explaining all the details in his carefully formulated answer,
taking and posting pictures and everything else.
I’m glad there are still people out there who go the extra mile
(on a Monday!!!) to convince the unfaithful among us

http:// zenit-belomo.com/pka7409-eng.htm pardon my spelling.

The thing with the “Calumniator” was simply a joke,
maybe I should have used smileys and such
or even better, make my own smileys like Deckard
I publicly apologize for not making it clearer
that it was meant to be a joke






Anything you say about the deflector I take it as it is,
I didn’t question your solution in any way so far,
while I understand you had to fight all kind of problems,
occurrences and misfortunes until you achieved the results you wanted.

One thing to note however is that we found a variance of ~.05" in the offset between the mounts we have for testing. So don't expect 100% perfect alignment over the bore, that said +/-.05" is hardy an issue to be concerned about and one we can't fix.

Let me tell you that .050” is fcuk-all in the side off-set and I don’t believe
anybody would care about that small amount for a VZ.
I know I don’t care about .050”.
From your pictures, the centering above the bore looks fine by me.










I still wish you posted COMPLETE pics with details of your rail
bolted on the receiver and with the mount assembled.
However, in your last post I see that you changed the camera
or whatever, because the pics are much better now. Thank you.





Anyway, about the concern for my sources of mounts,
I really do not know about any other than the ones
previously posted by others, eastwave dot ca and kalinka.
Eastwave is in Canada, Kalinka will ship to Canada, IIRC.

If there is anything else I can do to help clarify things for you just ask.

I am not sure if you are talking to me, but I will ask anyway.
If you were not talking to me, then please don’t answer,
or even better, don’t even bother to read the rest of my post.




So, here it is.
About the side off-set.

Actually it will center the Belomo mounts like these without a spacer:

We initially thought that the Belomo mounts were going to be .125" offset but the mount we were using was a bit screwey from the factory. Once we fixed the mount so it sat on the rail flush it centered over the bore fine.

So, for me to understand better,
1. did you design the rail thickness taking into consideration
the offset of the mount you just showed
(or any other mount, and if so, which one??? ????
Please post a picture of that mount, you probably still have it. Thanks),


or 2. did you choose the thickness after gut feelings and such
and it was absolute pure luck that you found a mount
that happened to center well on your rail within .050”???
(do you play lotto too?)
So, how was it?
(Remember, the Belomo mounts come in different side off-sets.
I think it is not just me who wants you to answer the above).
I think it would be easier to post pics of the mount that you had by your side
when designing the mount - a pic is worth a thousand words






Also, some people, from a variety of reasons, may find it unusual that
you design a rail for a system that ends up with a scope
mounted offset on the left side.
I will list only two of these reasons:
1. Unlike the military intent of these scopes, some CGNers
may want to shoot very small targets,
theoretically let’s say, hunt gophers with it.
If a scope with 16-20 millimeters left-side offset is zeroed at 50 yds,
it would be good to aim at the odd 65 yds target (maybe).
But when the next gopher raises the head from the trenches at say, 110 yds,
compensating for side offset by “holding” may be a PITA for some people
(they may not find computing in the field and in a rush as very funny).
While trying to compensate for elevation,
making a little mistake by over or under compensating for side-offset
makes the difference between hit and miss these small targets.
So, you focusing on side off-set scopes seems unusual.
Was there a purpose I fail to see?

2. I find it very very odd that somebody designs something for sale
(like your rail accomodating all side off-set scopes as you say)
without thinking of the left-hand shooters.
How the fcuk are they supposed to use your side-offset scope set-up???
Did you think of left-handed people (like Deckard for example)?
(He was nice and considerate enough to design his Dragunov-type stock
with ambi cheek-welds, although ir was not intended for sale. Remember?
What about you?)

Or maybe you said “screw Deckard, because
he’s going to end up shooting sideways anyways
and/or with the gun above his head” (which is kind of true,
but I think he deserves a chance to salvation).
But joking aside, the question remains, what about the lefty users?







Yes, when it comes to picatinny rails, after I asked you specific questions,
your quick fix by shimming may save the day (for a while).
We’ll see later what kind of off-sets it works with,
since Belomo and Kalinka have mounts with more than one side off-set..
So, what now?
“Precision” shims (as you said), but in a variety of thicknesses?
Customization? Re-designing? (Or, your choice of fix solution).

Maybe I should just post up the CAD file. Would that be better for you guys?

(Are you fcuking kidding me?
Nobody will want to steal your design.
I can almost guarantee it.)
I don't see how or why you can't post complete pics
of a product that is up for sale.

The real reason I asked you to post detailed pictures is simple,
I would like to see in the same picture if possible:
the mount of your choice while centering some scope rings
(or picatinny rail) above the bore
AND the rail sitting on the receiver without shims,
that is, people may want to see continuous material
from the left side of the rail up to the receiver.
Oh yeah, and without faking it by holding the rail in the desired position
by hand, clamps or whatever and cropping the pics after

Please remember, these two details on the same picture.
Can you please post that COMPLETE picture? Thank you.
That would eliminate many doubts surrounding your claims
about the centering of that mount and
it will convince me and other people here.
If you have a rail that does what you claim,
posting a pic like that would be a piece of cake.
Thanks again.

 

[John Marshall]

Sure, we will post all the pics you ask for. Not a problem at all. Give us a day. Other than that, none of this is based on luck. As for the lefty's, ask the boss, he is one!

 

[suprathepeg]

I'm out of town doing product testing so I don't have the ability to post up a ton of pics though I am taking a lot.

Let me be clear about this, we designed the rail to center with the mounts designed to center on the SVD and AK (both very close if not the same) we also were trying to streamline the rail so that it wasn't an abortion on the side of your rifle. After the first batch came back from coating we tried the mounts designed to center and the optic was off center, simple solution for those not using POSP type optics was a shim. Then after looking at the mount we noticed it had a small flaw that was keeping it from sitting on the dovetail properly. Silly us we fell for a Russian trick! Fixed the mount and it centers just fine. Bottom line is as I posted before : MOUNTS DESIGNED TO CENTER ON THE SVD AND AK WILL CENTER OVER THE BORE ON THE VZ58 WITH THE MultiMount Rail. I have already posted two pics of mounts centered without shim.

As far as leftys are concerned, Deckard and I will be fine as optics can be centered. POSP type optics are offset about 1/2" to the left, I still have no problems using them and am liking the 4x24 POSP a lot. As far as your issues with left offset optic, I recomend you discuss this with the Russian MOD or what ever their equivilent may be. With the offset optics all you do is zero them at your maximum shooting distance for example:

For tunnel rats I would zero @ 300m. @225m you will be hitting 1/8" right. @150m you will be hitting 1/4" right. @75m you will be 3/8" right. Point blank 1/2" right. This is a 7.62x39 rifle so 1.5moa in the field is a good day. Bottom line with POSP type optics the offset is a non issue.

Details of installation will be included with your instructions that come with the MultiMount Rail. Closeups of the rail will be posted online too. I'm not going to give details of construction away one the net, I think thats fair and we've already shown more then most manufacturers do. I will get a shot up of the inside of the receiver soon.

If anyone doubts our quality, I'll tell you this much our tollerances are exponentially tighter then those used by the Russians who have used this system successfully for nearly 40 years if not more. If you distrust us in any way then wait for the reviews to come out, I'm sure there will be some CGNers who will post their opinions once they receive them.

Here are some pics of one of our test rifles with a Bushnell 4200 Elite 1.25-4x30 IR scope mounted center over the bore. If anything this is the setup I recomend most but the scope is almost as much $ as the rifle so if you want to spend less then the 4x24 POSP is very good as well for 1/4 the price but is offset and a bit heavier.

An aimpoint using this mount would be pretty slick too.

 

[Dr.Lector]

Please take your time. Nobody is rushing you. Finish the product testing first.
Yeah, I remember the good old times of product testing in the field.
I used to take my time and do very comprehensive tests
to all the products, domestic or imported, brewed or draft,
on tap or in a bottle. Oh yeah, the good old times...



You said (repeatedly) that you used the Belomo mount
when you designed the rail. Well, exactly which one,
because you already know the following:

There are literally over 50 different optic and mount variations available and most will work directly with the MultiMount Rail.

So, Please show the exact mount you designed your rail for.


If it is f-up from the factory, or it is scratched from when you fixed it,
or you maybe made additional holes, cuts, millings and experiments,
don’t worry about it, it doesn’t have to be pretty.
Please show the exact mount you designed your rail for.


If you don’t have it any longer, if let’s say it was borrowed by somebody,
or it was sold, lost, stolen, abducted by aliens, the dog ate it, or whatever,
that’s ok, I’ll buy that explanation, but please provide an internet link
to somebody who sells it (Belomo you said).
Please show the exact mount you designed your rail for.


If the said link is not available anylonger, then please say so
(but that is not the case, because, when designing the rail,
you chose a very common and popular mount, is that correct?).
Please show the exact mount you designed your rail for.

I showed all the patience in waiting for this answer so far,
and I really do not understand your reluctance in answering my question.
I wonder what good that would make to your credibility.

I have already posted two pics of mounts centered without shim.

You posted mounts centered, yes, but I find it hard to believe
there is no shim between the rail and receiver.
Let me see the mount centered AND no shim on the same pic.

Closeups of the rail will be posted online too. I'm not going to give details of construction away one the net, I think thats fair and we've already shown more then most manufacturers do.

I didn’t ask for “details of construction”.
When I asked for “closeups”
I was actually referring to close-ups of the setup,
like mount assembled on the rail
and general fit of the setup on the rifle. Nothing else.

Curtton the bolts come through the inside of the receiver and the mount is threaded. Installation is really easy, easier then it looks. A smith should have this mounted and ready to go in about half an hour or less. The bolts can tighten to around 80 foot pounds and it won't be going anywhere.

That’s right, it won’t be going anywhere, not even to the range
because the screws will snap.

Well, if you talk to your design/engineering department (whoever that is),
they will probably explain to you that
80 ft.lbs is a tremendous amount of torque for any kind of similar setup.
To give you a very rough idea what 80 ft.lbs. is,
such torque is suitable for cylinder-head bolts for medium size engines,
crank-shaft caps, and stuff like that.
The (arguably) most popular engine
for p/u trucks and large size cars in North America,
Small Block Chev 350 old style, needs only 65 ft.lbs. on the cil-heads bolts
in sequence (and progressively steps are recommended).
Usually is done with a 2ft long torque-wrench.



For your setup, even if you use space-ship materials or NASA or whatever
for your rail and screws, putting such a large amount of ass-whooping
on such a small amount of surface (as in the area under the screw caps),
that would F-up the receiver.

Yeah, I know it was an honest mistake. Are there any other ones?

 

[Dr.Lector]

Sure, we will post all the pics you ask for. Not a problem at all. Give us a day. Other than that, none of this is based on luck. As for the lefty's, ask the boss, he is one!

Johnny! Where were you? I missed your posts lately

Some time ago I asked Deckard
to send you a big salami (from camel meat)
and some goat cheese.
We didn't want to send wine because we were not sure
about Ontario regulations concerning alcohol in mail.
But we knew you had enough wine (and whine)
and other treats (and threats) from last time.
Did you receive the package? We didn't hear back from you.
Is everything ok? Did Canada post screw it up again?


We are very well, thanks for asking.
We thought you guys would be dropping by,
because there was a lot of snow in Vancouver,
and we were hoping that you could teach us how to shovel snow
(or whatever else is that you guys are good at).

Snow is almost gone now
but there are a lot of shootings in Vancouver lately.
It’s so bad, that some people are afraid to go outside
or even answer their doors (me, I’m even afraid to answer my emails).
Deckard rolls down his windows when he drives,
so the bullets can go in and out through the windows
without breaking the glass,
so he doesn’t have to replace his car windows all the time.

Hey, Johnny, you have a lot of fans in the West.
We want to start a fan club, would you vote for me
as the president of this club?

Sure, we will post all the pics you ask for. Not a problem at all. Give us a day.

Sure.
It would actualy be better if you guys take your time and post
some correct, complete and outstanding pics with the right set-up
without feeling rushed (but I know you are not rushed,
because your product is ready to go,
and presently shipped to the “Distributers”, right?)

... As for the lefty's, ask the boss, he is one!

Oh, come on, don’t start blaming each other now....

Regards,
Tequila Oblongata

 

[stormbringer]

I do not know whether to laugh, shake my head or start with infractions.

 

[Dr.Lector]

I simply wanted to know (and I repeatedly asked for)
info regarding a product offered to CGN members.
So far, my specific questions
were either dodged, ignored, avoided, or answered vaguely.



I believe the CGN members have a right to know,
by being told directly by the manufacturer
the suitability of a product for the intended purpose,
and more than anything,
if the product does indeed what the advertiser says
or it is a complete farce (or where exactly it stands in between),
before they invest their hard-earned money in a thing
that they cannot even see a clear, final and overall picture of.


I think that would be fair, because,
as seen on CGN before in a multitude of cases,
vendors, distributors, dealers, manufacturers and whathaveyou
answer direct questions all the time about the products they sell.



If the seller (distributor, vendor, etc) gets nervous when facing questions, then, (in order to avoid misinformation of the large audience and consumers
represented by the CGN members), the best persons to ask for help
are not the hard-worked honor moderators of this site, but rather somebody
who knows directly about these things and post here the answer obtained.

The designers, development team and production staff are comprised of highly skilled persons who have careers invested in this sort of thing.

Or, even better, bring the pro's on this forum and let them answer
simple and direct questions.



When waiting for direct and simple answers
at my specific questions that were asked over and over again,
sometimes I get realy bored and I like killing time with socializing posts.
If I offended those who cannot defend themselves,
then I apologize and I will try not to do it again.
I will also try from now on to stick to technical discussions only

 

[simpleton]

Your a prick

 

[sillymike]

Your a prick

Maybe... but as far as prick goes, he's a pretty interesting one

 

[Steiner]

Well I was lucky enough to see the mount recently. It does center without shims (if I recall correctly). I'm not sure what all the questions are about. Even if I didn't see the mount, the pictures posted would have been enough to satisfy reasonable curiousity. It looks like a good solution for putting either a red dot or conventional scope on the VZ. Anyways, I REALLY liked the setup and can't wait to get one for my rifle.

 

[22Short_Improved]

Your a prick

He’s a prick, and a #######. But last time i checked this wasn’t nice guys contest.
He probably detected something and he goes for it.If a guns thingy has a design flaw no matter how well hidden, he will find it every time all the time and he is very good at it. Now he is not even trying hard and its so easy for him that even somebody like me could find several chapters of BS in that contraption and can see the ridiculous thing that Rauch tactical tries to bring in thru the back door is embarrassing at best . i am sure lector sees more than me . would you like to buy somthng that is not what was advertised ? i know i wouldn’t. Did you ask yourself why Rauch tactcal doesnt answer his questions ? it would be much easier for them to say we ####ed up we’ll try next time. But they are so stubborn tehy say only general things or silence altogether b/c they know lector is right.
the unsuspecting sheep like you open their mouth and swallow.this website became such a cheerleader cloak that you dont even question things no more, you swallow directly. Lector doesnt. Cgn needs more like him.

so, STFU dude
about his jokes with Deckard and others about gangstsa and other things, i never understood them and i like to stay away from that. my only question would be what suprathepeg or Rautch did to lector . i check lectors posts regularly and i cant find anything but im sure there is more than meets the eye .

 

[Curtton]

you guys play nice .

 

[Deckard]

I really don't understand the Deckard jabs, but hey, it adds personality...or something.

"May Lectar's armpits smell of 10,000 goats."

 

[suprathepeg]

Alright I've spent the last 2 hours trying to get photos uploaded to respond but the internet out here is junk. I went to the family cabin to do some product testing and getting online is a chore. Before someone asks why I do testing in the bush over a range I'll answer that one now:
1. Testing in the field is always better then "in the lab".
2. Rapid fire of 200 rounds as fast as I can load and change mags goes over like lead balloon at any range I've ever been to.
3. I can do pretty much whatever i want when ever I want.
4. No waiting for 5 other people to check their targets etc... refer to #3.
5. I cannot afford a private range.
6. Cause that is what I chose.

22Short_Improved, thanks for making accusations about something you have never seen to someone you have never met. Nothing goes through the back door, although I have no idea what you are talking about. General statements are made because either I am trying to give you the best answer, I don't understand what is being asked or I am waiting for a response from production. I have sold to a ton of CGNs with only one complaint, customer couldn't track their package during Christmas cause CP posted the tracking info after the package arrived late (nothing I could do for him if I wanted to, and he understood that).

I do not lie or intentionally mislead. If you have an issue ask a question, make it clear and I'll do my best to give you a clear answer. I have about 20 pictures I want to post here but they will have to wait till I get back to the city. As far as admitting my mistakes I was pretty clear about my initial mistake about offset vs centering. Just in case anyone missed it, no a shim will not be necessary.

Steiner pre-ordered a rail, he happens to live in Winnipeg as well as I and I offered to show him what we are working on. He has seen the rail setup first hand. You can call him I liar too now if you want.

I am making the offer to anyone in Winnipeg who wants to see the rails and how they mount to come and take a look. Then you can tell Lector for me cause he won't listen.

Lector I tried to bend the laws of physics but can't seem to take a picture down the bore (proving center) and inside the lightning cut in the receiver at the same time. I did take several pictures of each that I will post up in a few days if not sooner. I've already shown what mounts will center over the bore. I have ordered another to make you happy and will post pics of it when it arrives. In the meantime continue to throw poo, it does a ton for your credibility. Since you have started this little game traffic in this thread has gone way up, we've gotten more orders and dealer orders.

Anyhow, I'll let John answer any technical questions cause he can do it better then I.

 

[John Marshall]

That’s right, it won’t be going anywhere, not even to the range
because the screws will snap.

Well, if you talk to your design/engineering department (whoever that is),
they will probably explain to you that
80 ft.lbs is a tremendous amount of torque for any kind of similar setup.
To give you a very rough idea what 80 ft.lbs. is,
such torque is suitable for cylinder-head bolts for medium size engines,
crank-shaft caps, and stuff like that.
The (arguably) most popular engine
for p/u trucks and large size cars in North America,
Small Block Chev 350 old style, needs only 65 ft.lbs. on the cil-heads bolts
in sequence (and progressively steps are recommended).
Usually is done with a 2ft long torque-wrench.

80ft pounds was the total torque of all 4 bolts (its actually 72) to give a relative figure of how tight the rail is held on. If you download the unbrako engineering reference it will show you the info for there M6 screws. We have since reduced them to M5 as M6 was not required. Our design team consists of two tool and die makers a machinist, a tool designer and an engineer. They are all part time employees of Rauch tactical for what it is worth (I know, not much) as well as Sean and myself. Hope that helps.

 

[stormbringer]

I believe the CGN members have a right to know,

Well that is where you are WRONG.

You have ZERO rights other than not to be constantly badgered..

Funny thing EVERYONE has that right the same one that you are treading on.

 

[stormbringer]

2. Rapid fire of 200 rounds as fast as I can load and change mags goes over like lead balloon at any range I've ever been to.

.

Really...........I thought that John would have had you out to EESA.

Bring your toys out to the BLAST OFF in June...........they will fit right in.

 

[suprathepeg]

Really...........I thought that John would have had you out to EESA.

Bring your toys out to the BLAST OFF in June...........they will fit right in.

Yea the 20 hour drive to EESA kinda sucks otherwise I'd be there now. IIRC that is where john does his portion of the testing though.

And we already have plans to present a lot of products at the June Blast Off.

 

[suprathepeg]

Wow I never thought I would say this but I actually shot till I was tired of shooting! Good working weekend though .

Another day at the office? I wish, but a solid day none the less:

I'll start with some glory shots then get into the technical.

The weather was cold (-10 to -15) but otherwise great. Nice sunny clear days with no wind.

The 100m rest:

The tree that was holding up my target lol. I never thought I would see this but I did:

Over 200 rounds fired at this one, about 150 with the barrel too hot to touch using Czech surplus, 75-100m, mostly unsupported and a lot of rapid fire. There is a lot of drift with that ammo and a hot barrel. 40 rounds of Norinco silver box. The best Czech groupings were about 4" @ 100m and the Norinco ammo did much better with my best grouping at 1.7 MOA off the bipod on a rock . I'm sure a better shooter sand bagged would do much better.

One more shot that I like:

Now for the goods. I mounted up multiple mounts/optics and all worked for me who is a lefty but as always YMMV. I'll give the optic name and mount name with a side view and rear view to show relation to the bore:

Firstly the rail itself mounted. (Note: this deflector is not exactly what the final version will look like as this was the basis for our testing. I will post up pics of the final version when they are ready)

This is a good time to clarify something. We designed the rail to mount in a variety of heights inside the lightning cut, you have about 3/8 of up/down play to work with. Depending on the mount or optic you choose different heights can work better then others. I will include how to choose what is best for you in the instructions that will accompany the rail as it can be confusing without having the rail and optic/mount in your hands.

For Lector a pic of the mating surfaces without a shim, you will have to take our word that all the pics are of this setup :

Rail with the PK01 mount and 30mm optic from the mount side:

Other side:

And centered:

The scope is a 1.25-4x30 Bushnell 4200 Elite, it has a 30mm tube. For me this is my favorite setup, mostly cause I'm left handed. There is room for a 40mm bell for sure if you want a larger aperture. Also there are ring reducers available so you can run an optic with a 1" tube, this is what John runs on his.

Rail with 4x24 POSP side view:

Rear view:

Rail with 6x42 PSO side view:

Rear View:

Both the PSO and POSP scopes are ~1/2" offset to the left. For me (left handed shooter) it wasn't the most comfortable but I had no issues and personally like the 4x24 on this rifle. The centered optic is more comfortable for me for obvious reasons and Deckard would likely agree . For about $200 shipped including the optic with mount its a good deal. Nice glass, good finish and very nice target turret system.


Here is the PKA red dot. I'll show two mounting points but you can choose 5 preset ones with the MultiMount rail. Side view rearmost setting:

Forward setting:

Rear view:

The offset with this optic is the same as the POSP. Decent red dot, especially for the price. Has that I'm gonna invade Georgia feeling.


This mount Kalinka calls the SKS/SVD Mount w/ 1" Rings, mounted is a Leupold 2-7x33. Side view:

Rear view:

Offset with this mount is ~3/8. A better fit for southpaws then the POSP/PSO optics and very solid.


So which mount/optic is the MultiMount designed for? Short answer is all of them. I'm not going to show any of the mounts using the early model AK base like this:

Reason being that although yes they will mount on the rail they are about 1/2" higher then the SVD base:

They don't work with the multi eye relief feature of our rail. Now If Lector wants to send me his, I'll be glad to throw up some pics to make him happy. Take my word for it or not but IIRC the mount bases are the same offset for either the AK or SVD.

I will post pics of the SVD based mount when it arrives.

Hope this helps clear some things up.

 

[suprathepeg]

About modification of the mount that caused confusion. We took this mount:

And removed the brass spacer in the center. After some research the late model AK side rails have a relief for this ours does not and the piece is not necessary. With the piece in place it causes this mount not to sit flat on the dovetail and the optic will be offset about 1/8" or so. This mount was solid for over 500 rounds with no movement.

we also had to remove some material at the back of the mating surface to allow it to slide forward on the rail. No big deal, 1 minute with a grinder/dremmel.