Norinco M4
- Thread starter The Cocker
- Start date
The idea that Norinco (or any other brand) is going to "bring down the price of other NA manufacture rifles" seems to display a misunderstanding of why prices are what they are... I think it's naive and just wishful thinking.
The pricing of NA manufactured rifles (ie U.S. Made) is based on the US Dealer Cost, the currency exchange rate, the export permit costs, transport costs, brokerage costs. Those are all set costs that have NOTHING to do with the Canadian importer/dealer nor are they in any way affected by the price of a Norinco rifle. The ONLY factor that is controlled by the Canadian dealer is the margin (profit) that he adds onto the cost and thereby sets his retail selling price. That part he can adjust.
But here's the point... Dealers in this country try to add enough profit to cover all of their operating costs (rent, heat, insurance, labour costs, phone, etc.) and still have money left over (that's the profit) so they can take home a pay cheque for all their risk and efforts. Cheaper Norinco AR's won't change what a dealer has to make profit on his NA rifles to stay in business. If he drops the price of his NA rifles all he is doing is getting rid of his inventory and trying to reduce his losses... he won't re-order and he won't order more. In fact he won't stay in business... not selling NA rifles anyway.
I sell my products at the prices that I need to get in order to cover my costs and make a profit... yes I make money doing what I do... I'm not ashamed of it and I don't apologize for it. If I can't sell my AR's for what I need to get then I blow-out the ones left in stock and I move on to something else... or I shut down the business and lay on a beach somewhere warm.
If I could buy NA rifles cheaper (and thereby sell them cheaper) then I'd already be doing it... I think I drive a pretty hard bargain with my suppliers... I think every other importer and dealer in Canada does the same thing. It's beyond me what makes people think that all of a sudden a $500 or $700 or $900 Norinco AR will change the pricing structure of RRA, or STAG or Bushmaster or LMT or COLT, etc. They couldn't care less... DPMS has backorders for over 100,000 rifles (that's over a years production). If you called them up today and told them you'd order 1,000 guns but you need a better "deal" because you need to compete with Norinco, the guys at DPMS would fall off their chairs laughing at you.
If all that mattered was price then I'd dump every AR we have and shut down the business... either that or jump on the Norinco band-wagon and eventually the only gun that dealers would have would be Norinco... until some other company offered a cheaper one. Thankfully price is NOT all that matters. Brand, quality, cosmetics, features, materials, durability, all matter... even perception... they all play a factor.
I think the new Norinco AR's are great... I honestly do. I think it offers many shooters an opportunity to get an AR and have fun with a much lower entry point than was previously possible... an entry point that previously was beyond their means. I won't sell any less AR's because of the Norinco's... we sell every AR we can get our hands on... in fact I suspect that over time we'll sell more. As new shooters start with a Norinco and learn the joys of AR's... they'll move on... trade "up" if you will and eventually buy other brands. I think that's great for the industry.
As for other brand's prices being driven down... well I just don't see that... I wish it was true but don't see how that's going to happen.
Just my .02 cents worth (I hope it's still worth that much).
Mark
Mark, thank you for addressing this, I have a few questions for you.
As we all understand, the US is having a major Obama panic now and everyone is scrambaling to get as many guns as they can, especially anything black and tactical. Thus causing a shortage for everyone, espeically for Canada. Where do you see the future for the American gun industry, lets say after a new assault weapons ban is put into place. Would that destroy the US gun industry? Or these companies will start to pay more attention to foreign/Canadian sales more?
What was it like back when the AWB was still in place, did we get more love compared to now?
What do you think will happen with future US exportation laws, as I understand it is harder and pricier than ever before, do you think it will get worse? Or maybe the US manufactures will start helping out foriegn dealers more by lowering the cost or help paying for the export duties to create more sales.
Has there been any cases where US companies set up factory overseas to overcome this hurdle? Perhaps, even to come up to Canada for their manufacturing?
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No there is no importation of firearms from countries out side the Continental US allowed
Nope. The AR's that I do have do not get shot enough as it is. I don't really need to add another one to the heap. I do think it is a good deal for an entry level rifle. The weird exterior finish of paint that was put on over the parkerizing and anodizing is a bit rough, but they are mechanically sound. They are individually being inspected and worked over by a competent armorer before they going out the door as well. They have been in town for a couple of weeks, but Lever is making sure they are all squared away before they were prepared to sell any.
Colt - Colt Canada
Savage - Lakefield Arms
General Dynamics - SNC Technologies (ya I know they are ammo)
How much is exported out of Canada without DOS knowledge? Not a clue...I suspect very little, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is the exact opposite.
Boltgun
RevolverRodger
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Somewhere in QC
Sure you can buy those chinese ARs... I'll stick with a stag or armalite.
Write up a review when you get one Westicle.
Write up a review when you get one Westicle.
If the Norinko AR's are on a par with their other offerings I think people will be pretty happy. I have owned several Norinko's and the 'maybe not a Norinko but nevertheless Rem 870 clone', the Grizzly. The Norinko SKS I owned was every bit as good as the Russian ones I have seen and shot, the M14s was a very solid rifle that functioned flawlessly and the Griz got me interested enough in tactical style shotties that I went and upgraded to the Mossberg 590 A1 - and that is the point: a Norinko M4 may not be the cats ass but it will get people invloved in AR's and some will choose to spend more on a recognised industry leader. I see the Norinko importation as a very positive thing that allows people to (a) get into a genre without spending a fortune ( AR style ) and (b) access to a product that is for all practical purposes unobtainable in the original ( M14 ). As for the comment that 'made in China' is synonomous with poor quality ....well, I'm old enough to remember when people thought the same about Japanese automobiles !
I expect that the US is in for some serious crap the next 4 years... not so much from Obama but more from the Democrats as a whole and the large majority that they now control in their House and Senate, thus allowing the anti-gun politicians to force through much of their legislative agenda and with a President that will NOT veto that legislation since he also has a track record of being anti-gun. The NRA will fight it, but win or lose the whole thing is going to be a mess for Americans the next few years with some very negative laws getting passed.
I think those politicians have learned from the past... their next Assault Weapons Ban won't have a sunset clause (they don't need that to get the legislation passed this time) and this time they'll ban a lot more stuff. They're also attacking gun owners in different ways. The end result is that they'll put a damper on the industry but they won't "kill it" as many claim.
The US typically doesn't confiscate people's guns, they stop new ones from being made, sold and imported. There's a good chance they will turn a lot of the existing guns into Federally controlled Class III firearms... this will be devastating for many owners since there are a lot of states that don't allow their residents to own Class III firearms. Here's what a very good friend of mine who's part of a major US Manufacturer of AR's recently wrote to me:
... Shortly after the mid-term elections in 2010. They’ll do it by having the BATFE reclassify semi-autos with certain features as destructive devices (USAS-12, Striker, LHC, Streetsweeper, etc… are examples of how this was already done in the past). That way neither Congress or the Pres can be held responsible for it.
Owners who live in a State that won't allow them to possess such "destructive devices" will have to sell them to someone who lives in a State that allows them, or turn them in for destruction.
There will still be a firearms industry in the US it will simply focus on other things... they'll make 10 round magazines instead of high caps... they'll make compliant AR's instead of the "evil looking" ones. They won't sell as much but then what's happening right now is unprecidented anyways and frankly it's not sustainable.
US State Department control exports and the Presidency and the administration control the restrictions the are in place. My personal feeling is that the anti-gun lobby will continue to bring pressure to restrict firearms everywhere... Canadian anti-gun lobbyists will try to bring pressue on their friends in the US to stop the flow of guns to Canada and it's easy for State Department to do that through their restrictions. The dollar value of the legal civilian firearms trade from the US to Canada is not that big (in the big scheme of things) so I don't see that being much of a factor. It's my hope that the US will focus on controlling their domestic firearms and won't care about the exports... they may loosen restrictions. Once the demand for guns in the US is strangled by new laws there will be capacity and if export permits can be approved then Canada and the rest of the world will be able to buy lots of product... but don't expect the prices to be slashed. Some prices will fall to clear out inventory that can't otherwise be sold... but saleable items that can't be made any longer will skyrocket in value as they get bid up by potential buyers.
Like I said the next couple years could be a mess.
The costs to process export permits will continue to rise because they now want that division to be self funding which means the permit fees need to generate substantial portions of the cost to run those departments. I fear our fee costs will continue to rise (not fall) and that means higher prices not lower.
As for American companies moving to Canada... can't see that happening. It doesn't make sense economically and they would still need consent from the US State Department... it's not just the "guns" that are controlled it's the technology, the knowledge, the tools and machinery, the manuals, even the armorers courses. It's all regulated.
Having said all of that... it's not all doom and gloom for Canada. We have product flowing... parts arriving... etc.. Yes prices tend to rise but that's not unusual... such is life.
What happens over the next couple years is anyone's guess... only time will tell who is/was right
Mark
dangertree
Business Rep
- Location
- NL/ON/FL/PL
Yes, standard threads.
They're back up on the website too...
(other products being added).
My 2c on these rifles.
-These are functional rifles, not necessarily pretty rifles. If these were not serviceable, we wouldn't be selling them. We back this up with a 1 year warranty and the best supply of AR15 spare parts in Canada. If appearance is your primary concern, or money is not a factor in your decision, you should pony up for one of many other US brands available (Stags are the prettyist!
). These carbines cost about $500 less than our US offerings. But, if the price of a US AR is holding you back from owning an AR15, here is your answer. Also, we do offer refinishing services.-I know that there are people out there who want an AR, but for many reasons, can't do the price of our US rifle offerings. I know this because people tell me this. I see these carbines as filling this niche. These will not replace American AR15s in the market, or lower the prices, for reasons already outlined, but they do offer a way for many new shooters to enter the market they might otherwise not enter.
-If these carbines coming to the market result in more shooters on the mounds and firing lines across Canada this year and in the years to come, this is a good thing, and meshes nicely with AEIs mission of MORE CANADIAN AR15 OWNERS.
-Price, it is what it is. A number of importers have stated that the price for these carbines from the manufacturer is much higher than other Norinco offerings. From what I know of the price, suggesting anyone is gauging anyone is just ignorance and sour grapes. $981.75 (our price) to your door for a new AR15 with a chrome lined barrel, is a good price. Expecting these to cost less was wishful thinking, which is not always bad, but maybe unrealistic?
Selling and servicing these carbines helps our business grow, which allows us develop other products which will be needed in years to come by all our advancing shooters. Works for me.
Finally, if anyone thinks that the price is too close to a US rifle, we'd be happy to take your order for one of those too.
But, buy an AR15.
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Thanks for the constructive posts in this thread. I've been wanting to get into the AR15 game, but have been having a hard time convincing myself to spend a bunch of money on one when I'm supposed to be saving for school. Having an option that's about 1/3rd off the price of other offerings will help convince my wallet to get in the game. As long as it doesn't have the accuracy of a pocket pistol and won't blow up in my face, I'll be happy.
Besides, I'd rather have a beat up looking black AR15 than some of the tactilol spray paint "camo" jobs I've seen on some rifles. I guess just prefer function over form. Besides, that Duracoat job for 25 bucks posted a couple pages back looks pretty good.
Besides, I'd rather have a beat up looking black AR15 than some of the tactilol spray paint "camo" jobs I've seen on some rifles. I guess just prefer function over form. Besides, that Duracoat job for 25 bucks posted a couple pages back looks pretty good.
- Location
- BC, In a Van down by the river!
That's funny...I was just thinking this would be a great rifle to paint up! Ever seen "sprints" paint job? Sweet.
