How much $ to start a small ammo manufacturing business here????
- Thread starter gopher1
- Start date
We have a major ammunition manufacturer who already supplies ammo to the CF, I don't believe they have any prohibition against selling to civilians but in another thread someone mentioned that they only do bulk orders. What if the dealers all got together and did a large scale buy of .223 and .308, or CGNers themselves got together to do it? As for Challenger shotgun ammo, I've never seen it for sale at Silverdale, Canadian Tire, Wal Mart, LeBarons, Bass Pro, Target Sports...if we want canadian made ammo, let's petition gunshops to start carrying it.
As for starting an ammo company, there are already bullet makers here, and someone said IMR is made here, so if you can source cheap brass why not see about loading cheap(er) .223 ammo or .308? Or work with Wolf or Combat masters to start it up at their facilities if they have the space?
As for starting an ammo company, there are already bullet makers here, and someone said IMR is made here, so if you can source cheap brass why not see about loading cheap(er) .223 ammo or .308? Or work with Wolf or Combat masters to start it up at their facilities if they have the space?
It would easily cost 5 million in equipment, and another million for the start up costs and then a half million a year for salary, lease, insurance.
At one point I looked REALLY far into starting a factory, not for ammo mind you, but similar equipment. And I would have needed almost 7 million from the investors, and a year before any return started coming in.
Only made it up to 4 million from investors, and bank was only covering 1.2 million.
This was 2 years ago, I would suspect it is higher now.
I REALLY REALLY wish I would have pushed harder as right now I would be rolling in cash.
From Metal refineries on a 500 meter roll 2 meters wide and however thick. They would then stamp, die and roll it into a case.
I can't remember who said it but the idea of going to someone like Wolf with a solid business plan and cash you could probably work out a way to more or less expand their business for a share. But you have to remember, the reason they don't just do this on their own is for good reasons.
At one point I looked REALLY far into starting a factory, not for ammo mind you, but similar equipment. And I would have needed almost 7 million from the investors, and a year before any return started coming in.
Only made it up to 4 million from investors, and bank was only covering 1.2 million.
This was 2 years ago, I would suspect it is higher now.
I REALLY REALLY wish I would have pushed harder as right now I would be rolling in cash.
From Metal refineries on a 500 meter roll 2 meters wide and however thick. They would then stamp, die and roll it into a case.
I can't remember who said it but the idea of going to someone like Wolf with a solid business plan and cash you could probably work out a way to more or less expand their business for a share. But you have to remember, the reason they don't just do this on their own is for good reasons.
The company is called general dynamics they DO NOT sell to civilians... I told them I would buy half a million .224 FMJ they will not sell to civilians period.
As far as I know there are no jacketed bullet makers in Canada or else I would buy from them.
IMR is apparently made in Canada and packaged in the USA
Margins on reloading components is so low it would not pay for a person to buy all the components and assemble them... like wise it would still not pay to start up a plant here because there is no way in that you would be able to sell .223 55 grain at 9.99 a box and make any money. Probably for many years till your investment is payed off.
Look at it this way Canada has as many shooters as Texas thats it... Americans aren't really concerned with our market...
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Winchester 1886
CGN Regular
Right msg.drew,
This company was SNC Tech,a branch from SNC Lavalin,in Repentigny QC,before General Dynamics bought them 3-4 years ago.
They don't sell to civilians cause they have HUGE contracts with CF and LEO.
They are the only one producing Simunition for LEO practice.
They produce canon rounds and grenades too.
Went to their plant couple years ago as a contractant for a 2 weeks shut-down.A lot of very small bunkers every where very well protected in case of explosion...
There could possibly be niche markets. Weatherby ammo. Black powder cartridges eg 45/70.
I have a very good example here... For 6 months I have listed my own brand of lead cast bullets... they are similar price as other... yet no sales? They are just as good as all the other major brands practically made by the same equipment and yet no one will buy them... I have shot them for several years without any problems what so ever... the time it takes to make them far out weighs the benefits of selling them but I thought I would try because I was thinking of getting into jacketed bullets.
Even if you have your own plant... who are you going to trust... drew's bullets or hornady...
Even if you have your own plant... who are you going to trust... drew's bullets or hornady...
If you are selling them then NRCAN would still have to test and "approve" each loading you sell. As I understand, the cost per test is around $1,500. (please correct me if I am wrong, couldn't find the reference) So if you want 20 different load combinations, that would be $30,000 before you could sell one cartridge.
And you wonder why there aren't many custom reloaders in Canada.
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- Location
- Annapolis Valley, NS
There is another little known fact that there is a federal regulation requiring the Canadian Goverment to maintain the ability to produce ammunition within the country (military use only) for war requirments - that is why there are still plants in Canada producing military ammunition, they are guaranteed X amount of bussiness/year from goverment contracts, the ability has to remain in country. If not for that there would be no large manufacturing companies here anyway....
SANDY ROAD;
You seem to have an excellent grasp for the realities of the ammunition manufacturing world....
I have been involved in setting up a few ammo plants over the years, it IS EXPENSIVE to say the least.... Of course when on a government budget money is not an issue....
At the moment I know of at least three major size facilities that have been mothballed as their governments find it cheaper to simply contract out for their requirements and keep the facilities in reserve....
One plant I know of is up for sale, it is huge, during better times it produced millions of rds per week....
As for the requirements of the Canadian market, well I recall talking with the late Joyce Hornady, during a visit, I asked how much production time the Candian market represented to him....
"about one week a year for our entire line of products" was the comment....
The average Canadian shooter simply does not understand how small the market is here in the north.... Example, we sell about 1 million rds of 7.62x39 every 3-4 weeks here in Canada.... Last year we sold over 40 million into the USA....
So far this year we have sold 45 million rds into the USA....
We are a smaller population, a very large part of our country has a climate which does NOT favor outdoor shooter for several months a year....
We have many regulations that do not allow you to take out your favorite toy to the local gravel pit to enjoy yourself.... You can only take tour restricted firearms to approved ranges which may or may not allow the use of certain firearms or calibers....
ALL of these issues must be factored in when considering the demand of any given market....
Only my opinion
John
You seem to have an excellent grasp for the realities of the ammunition manufacturing world....
I have been involved in setting up a few ammo plants over the years, it IS EXPENSIVE to say the least.... Of course when on a government budget money is not an issue....
At the moment I know of at least three major size facilities that have been mothballed as their governments find it cheaper to simply contract out for their requirements and keep the facilities in reserve....
One plant I know of is up for sale, it is huge, during better times it produced millions of rds per week....
As for the requirements of the Canadian market, well I recall talking with the late Joyce Hornady, during a visit, I asked how much production time the Candian market represented to him....
"about one week a year for our entire line of products" was the comment....
The average Canadian shooter simply does not understand how small the market is here in the north.... Example, we sell about 1 million rds of 7.62x39 every 3-4 weeks here in Canada.... Last year we sold over 40 million into the USA....
So far this year we have sold 45 million rds into the USA....
We are a smaller population, a very large part of our country has a climate which does NOT favor outdoor shooter for several months a year....
We have many regulations that do not allow you to take out your favorite toy to the local gravel pit to enjoy yourself.... You can only take tour restricted firearms to approved ranges which may or may not allow the use of certain firearms or calibers....
ALL of these issues must be factored in when considering the demand of any given market....
Only my opinion
John
- Location
- Downtown Vancouver, BC
Johnone, I just hope I have your kind of energy when I get to be your age...I don't know how you do it.
This is bang on. When the NFA approached the NRA during the time of Kim Campbell's reign of terror to ask for help fighting the impending regulations they basically couldn't be bothered with our small (very small) market. If I remember correctly, the suggestion they offered was that the NFA start a program like the NRA's Round-Up to raise money. The quote I heard was that the state of Texas consumes in one month what Canada goes through in a year. We really are such small fry to them that I am surprised that US companies still bother filling in all the paperwork to get their stuff up here.
As far as starting an ammunition manufacturing plant in Canada, even if money was not an object unless it was located somewhere in the Arctic circle I cannot see any municipality or other local gov't being warm to such a proposal. I can just see it now - the raging grannies organizing a major protest
Presently at my Walmart .308 150 gr soft points are going for $17.95/box of 20. There is no way in the world that any home-grown production plant could match that today. Too bad, but that's the reality.
John, your million rounds every 3 or 4 weeks to Canada will drop to nothing as soon as that price point (Czech surplus) runs out and you end up charging upwards of $1 a round for whatever supply is available (PMC, etc). Just look at some of the other threads where guys are screaming about the recent price increases.
Doug
ILOVEPOTATOS;
Well now, when I look in the mirror in the morning I see this really good looking 18 year old....
My wife says my eye sight is failing....
Seriously, I think it is going to the office every day and facing new and different challenges each time is what keeps your mind alert....It prevents one from slowly becoming a vegetable....
I must mention that being in contact with some of the finest people in the world, shooters and collectors, is VERY satisfying in itself.
John
Well now, when I look in the mirror in the morning I see this really good looking 18 year old....
My wife says my eye sight is failing....
Seriously, I think it is going to the office every day and facing new and different challenges each time is what keeps your mind alert....It prevents one from slowly becoming a vegetable....
I must mention that being in contact with some of the finest people in the world, shooters and collectors, is VERY satisfying in itself.
John
How did you come up with a number of $15/box? (.75 cents per round) I can get .223 at Bass Pro today for $9.50/box. ATK sells 5.56 to the US military for .17 cents per round ($3.40/box). I'm quite sure they're both making money. In fact they were all making money when .223 was $5/box retail.
Like someone said earlier in this thread, too much negativity on CGN. Too many people chiming in with their opinion that have no facts to back them. We're all welcome to out opinions, but please don't shoot down (pardon the pun) a potentially good idea unless you have the facts to prove your point.
The current world price for 5.56 is USD$300-350 per 1000. That figure of 17 cents per rd is the price if you are the US government, who owns the LC plant, buying a billion plus rds a year, in 2004 dollars. in 2004 I could buy surplus 5.56 for 5 cents per rd.
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He said commercial reloaders.
No commercial reloader is manufacturing brass...I expect they are getting if from ranges.
