Anybody have any details on the Swiss Arms 7.62x39 project?

My understanding was that the Iraqi army was looking into getting these in 7.62x39 because they have so much war stock. The Swiss were going to make it for them for cheap but it fell through for some political reason. Instead they got the M16 and promptly lost a few hundred thousand somewhere along the line.:eek: Losing the M16's I can confirm the swiss arms part I'm not 100% sure of.
 
Rich LPS said:
m39a2,

Never seen anyone with a Swiss Arms outshoot you? Well come to Calgary and we'll see about that. There are a few of us who shoot them better than average.

Are you doing the full Service Rifle program out to 500 meters? or an reduced range, round count, target course of fire?

Surprathepeg,

I think that if you look a little closer you'll find that Big_Red and KevinB have an issue with the SG552 but have loads of respect for the SG551 and SG550's and think that they are great guns. I remember comments such as, "Iraqi SWAT using SG551's with over a million rounds fired with only one broken part". GSG9 has been using the SG551 for the better part of 2 decades and in some intense operational situations with great success and respect.

Rich
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Personally I do not doubt for a moment that it is an excellent rifle. However, any time anyone says "this one is the best" in practically any arena I am skeptical. Best in what way? All machines are compromises. Is an axe better than a knife? Is a log splitter better than an axe? Is a fishing rod better than a gillnetter? Is a sport boat better than hip waders?

Hard to say...depends on what you are doing with it. I have no doubt it is an excellent rifle, but to say "it's the best, bar none" is always a hard thing to quantify IMO.
 
misanthropist said:
Personally I do not doubt for a moment that it is an excellent rifle. However, any time anyone says "this one is the best" in practically any arena I am skeptical. Best in what way? All machines are compromises. Is an axe better than a knife? Is a log splitter better than an axe? Is a fishing rod better than a gillnetter? Is a sport boat better than hip waders?

Hard to say...depends on what you are doing with it. I have no doubt it is an excellent rifle, but to say "it's the best, bar none" is always a hard thing to quantify IMO.
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I think when people refer to it as the best.. they mean overall, over all other military rifles.

I would probably say "one of the best", but than again, I can't of think of any existing military rifle that would be better :p, so maybe it is the best :D

That's not to say there isn't is room for improvements...
 
I understand that that is what people mean...but I think for a lot of people this is just a vague idea.

Is it best in terms of logistics? How easy is it to supply the mags? The parts? Are logistical concerns worth more than accuracy and durability, or less? And so on...

I prefer to start with an accepted and specific definition of what qualities are included in "best" and then examine the contenders...but since there is no gold standard definition of what is best in a military rifle this competition is hard to pick a winner in...
 
misanthropist said:
Is it best in terms of logistics? How easy is it to supply the mags? The parts? Are logistical concerns worth more than accuracy and durability, or less? And so on...
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logistics...as in supply? I know these rifles may seem hard to get, parts and service may also be lacking what we the consumer would like to see as well, But we are civillians, gun manufacturers fill and tend to government and military orders much differently than joe blow who buys one or two of their rifles in a lifetime.
 
misanthropist said:
I understand that that is what people mean...but I think for a lot of people this is just a vague idea.

Is it best in terms of logistics? How easy is it to supply the mags? The parts? Are logistical concerns worth more than accuracy and durability, or less? And so on...

I prefer to start with an accepted and specific definition of what qualities are included in "best" and then examine the contenders...but since there is no gold standard definition of what is best in a military rifle this competition is hard to pick a winner in...
Click to expand...

You guys are right. In that light, considering the country purchasing these will undoubtedly purchase a spares package. The rifle itself is an extremely accurate and reliable package, and may not need aby spares for quite a few cans of ammo !
 
misanthropist said:
I understand that that is what people mean...but I think for a lot of people this is just a vague idea.

Is it best in terms of logistics? How easy is it to supply the mags? The parts? Are logistical concerns worth more than accuracy and durability, or less? And so on...

I prefer to start with an accepted and specific definition of what qualities are included in "best" and then examine the contenders...but since there is no gold standard definition of what is best in a military rifle this competition is hard to pick a winner in...
Click to expand...

You guys are right. In that light, considering the country purchasing these will undoubtedly purchase a spares package. The rifle itself is an extremely accurate and reliable package, and may not need aby spares for quite a few cans of ammo !

On that note, how many members on this board have them ?
How many have had problems and looked for parts ? almost none !
 
I can tell you that from the perspective of someone who spent more then a little time behind an AR platform in the military, the 55x series of weapon systems is by far one of the most superior platforms out there. I have never handled a more accurate and durable weapon. I can't think of a better friend to have in combat....well, maybe a comm set connected to some big guns on the other end. my 2 cents.
 
The SG 55x is a well engineered product. Proven operating system, excellent corrosion resistance, superb sighting arrangement, ergonomic, excellent magazines etc etc. It only falls short of the AR in the placement of the selector switch IMO.
 
kako911 said:
On that note, how many members on this board have them ?
How many have had problems and looked for parts ? almost none !
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That nicely encapsulates why I got one of their Carbines.

I have no reason to expect anything other than longevity from it; especially considering the low volumes I am likely to fire civie-side (ie - less than 4k rounds /year through it).

So where do most of you place values of:
  • The Swiss Miss?
    Quality: 9 Affordability: 4 Availability: 5
  • The M4gery?
    Quality: 7 Affordability: 7 Availability: 10

If you created a circle graph listing score by quality, Affordability, and availability on a scale of 1 to 10? (remembering that you can usually have any 2 at the exclusion of the third?)




My personal end analysis:
I love the Swiss Arms rifle.

Particularly the carbine. I even emotionally PREFER it to my comparatively neglected Colt LEs. There is a pure novelty factor at work here for certain. I can tell you without reservation that when I fire it, it makes me feel a certain kind of happy that gives me a unique appreciation for what it is; a finely crafted tool.

Conversely, because of my experience with the M16FOW I would be 99% likely to adopt it as my firearm of choice for any conflict -- even when given ANY alternate choice of firearm. Beyond its ubiquitousness and utility, I appreciate its familiar feel. What's that got to do with anything? Familiarity has everything to do with this. In a different context I would be needing to meet a different set of needs.

For those who disagree with my outlook, I can accept that fact. I don't work for the man anymore, so I can afford my own little eccentricities. For example I appreciate candlelight diner. But for other tasks, I do find light-bulbs are simply far more practical.

And I also can't ignore the weighted value score of the M4 that delivers across all three axis because of its duration and scale of production. Add aftermarket parts value, and the M4 remains a strong winner.



Some people lean to the "if I was only to allow myself one gun" standard and have a different outlook. For me they are Pokemon; Gotta get them all!


Comments?
 
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Sorry guys, I still stand by my statement, the swiss rifles are a battle rifle, nothing more. They are not the best nor are they the worst!

As far as coming up from Calgary to shoot our "Little match" with only limited # of rounds. How many matches do you shoot each year? How many rounds per match?

Here is what we did in 2008:

Service Rifle and Pistol League

Sniper Rifle notes

47 total competitors
(30 sggc members)
(17 non members)
1460 rounds fired in 3 matches

Service Rifle notes

72 total competitors
(34 sggc members)
(38 non members)
4,000 rounds fired in 6 matches

NRA notes

23 Total competitors
1200 Rounds fired in 2 matches

Pistol Notes
25 Total competitors
1700 Rounds fired in 4 matches

167 competitors
8360 rounds fired in 15 matches

I think when you look at the numbers you can see that we are pretty active, although we do not shoot a lot of rounds at each match overall thoughout the year I think we do pretty well.

Scott
 
m39a2 said:
Sorry guys, I still stand by my statement, the swiss rifles are a battle rifle, nothing more. They are not the best nor are they the worst!

As far as coming up from Calgary to shoot our "Little match" with only limited # of rounds. How many matches do you shoot each year? How many rounds per match?

Here is what we did in 2008:

Service Rifle and Pistol League

Sniper Rifle notes

47 total competitors
(30 sggc members)
(17 non members)
1460 rounds fired in 3 matches

Service Rifle notes

72 total competitors
(34 sggc members)
(38 non members)
4,000 rounds fired in 6 matches

NRA notes

23 Total competitors
1200 Rounds fired in 2 matches

Pistol Notes
25 Total competitors
1700 Rounds fired in 4 matches

167 competitors
8360 rounds fired in 15 matches

I think when you look at the numbers you can see that we are pretty active, although we do not shoot a lot of rounds at each match overall thoughout the year I think we do pretty well.

Scott
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Sorry but i still fail to see how that makes an oppinionated person on the subject. You have not seen one or shot one. That should make you neutral... not against it... Or am i reading wrong...
 
I have both seen and shot the Swiss rifles. I speak from many years as a competitive rifle shooter in regional, national and international service rifle shooting. The Swiss rifles are OK but not the "Best". I am not against it, they handle well and shoot fine I'm just against the dogma that percieves them as the best. As with all rifles they have some very strong points, they also have some week points. The front sight, for one, is far too wide to be used past a moderate battle range, say perhaps 300m. The rear sight is quite servicable and usable but not adjustable beyond the set distances. Again, I speak from a target shooters stance not a battle rifles uses stance, which is were I started all of this.

Scott
 
m39a2,

You wouldn't be the first person to state that they have never been beat by someone shooting a Swiss Arms Rifle. I was pointing out the fact that posters here should be careful what they say on the internet. You might be surprised by some Swiss Arms shooters.

You're not alone. There have been loads of pistol shooters making claims like," I've never been beaten by a Glock Shooter" only to have their AXX handed to them when they run into someone shooting a Glock who is a little better shot than the locals they are used to seeing shoot Glocks.

Rich
 
m39a2 said:
I speak from a target shooters stance not a battle rifles uses stance, which is were I started all of this.

Scott
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I thought everyone was saying it is the "best" battle rifle, yet you are comparing it to other rifles from purely a target shooting perspective??? useless comparison.

Battle rifles have to keep working flawlessly for the people standing behind them to stay alive in a firefight (paper doesn't shoot back). From owning AR's, HK's, and SA, the only rifle that I know for sure that would give me issues is the AR, I have never had any stoppages with HK or SA, The AR s**ts the bed from a simple ammo type change, forget about not cleaning it as well (the enemy doesn't stop shooting while you clean your rifle)
 
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