Are you a Keith or O'Conner advocate

[Camp Cook]

Ethical hunting is always an interesting debate. Which is more ethical of the two? Using a .223 on bear with a property constructed bullet or cowboy hat wearing yahoo pumping rounds through a 4" .44 magum at a running deer that is 600 yards away? Read the article of Keith's great "feat" here.

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=34

Then give this link a try and input the data for a .44 magnum at 600 yards. Take note of the drop and energy at 600 yards.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/

The only term appropriate is "slob hunter."

What a total load of misunderstanding going on here, the deer had been wounded by one of Keith's clients which is why he took the shots with his handgun it was the only tool he had with him so as the deer was disappearing over the hill Keith started shooting.

Get the story straight before you start condemning something...

I also don't give a rats about the energy figures when it comes to big heavy bullets you start dealing with momentum and heavy bullets penetrate even when they are going slow.

Keith's bullet probably passed right thru that deer when he hit it @ 600 yards due to the momentum of those rounds.

I can see why there is so much confusion out there not many of you actually understand what it is all about...

 

[Johnn Peterson]

Ethical hunting is always an interesting debate. Which is more ethical of the two? Using a .223 on bear with a property constructed bullet or cowboy hat wearing yahoo pumping rounds through a 4" .44 magum at a running deer that is 600 yards away? Read the article of Keith's great "feat" here.

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=34

Then give this link a try and input the data for a .44 magnum at 600 yards. Take note of the drop and energy at 600 yards.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/

The only term appropriate is "slob hunter."

I understand what you're saying, but to a small degree, we're comparing 'apples & oranges'. First and foremost, it isn't a shot 'opportunity' I'd take. Sadly, I don't have that proficiency. By 'apples & oranges' what I'm trying to imply is there is a difference between an individual of yester year doing what he could do in that day in age with the tools (44Mag) of his choice and his experience, compared to what's acceptable today, chosing to use a 233 on Bear. I'm not implying what he did then is in anyway acceptable by todays standards. But by the same token, with his ability and experience, bottem line, were his efforts successful? Back to what is possible and the power exhibited, the long range shooting my buddy and I did at the 45 gal oil at 450 yds, we put holes in it. If we could do that using 'Keith loads' I'm sure the results would be similar by Elmer on a Deer. Bottem line, and "in that day", did he 'do it'???

 

[Claybuster]

What a total load of misunderstanding going on here, the deer had been wounded by one of Keith's clients which is why he took the shots with his handgun it was the only tool he had with him so as the deer was disappearing over the hill Keith started shooting.

Get the story straight before you start condemning something...

I also don't give a rats about the energy figures when it comes to big heavy bullets you start dealing with momentum and heavy bullets penetrate even when they are going slow.

Keith's bullet probably passed right thru that deer when he hit it @ 600 yards due to the momentum of those rounds.

I can see why there is so much confusion out there not many of you actually understand what it is all about...

Read the article. Make your own choice.

Keith bragged about his exploits in print. In my books he's a bum.

 

[Johnn Peterson]

What a total load of misunderstanding going on here, the deer had been wounded by one of Keith's clients which is why he took the shots with his handgun it was the only tool he had with him so as the deer was disappearing over the hill Keith started shooting.

Get the story straight before you start condemning something...

I also don't give a rats about the energy figures when it comes to big heavy bullets you start dealing with momentum and heavy bullets penetrate even when they are going slow.

Keith's bullet probably passed right thru that deer when he hit it @ 600 yards due to the momentum of those rounds.

I can see why there is so much confusion out there not many of you actually understand what it is all about...

Shhhh.

 

[Camp Cook]

"Every deer hit correctly in the vitals has gone down with a single shot"

"As long as bullet placement is correct, along with a proper bullet, the little cartridge has proven reliable"

Contrary to what some believe, placing a shot correctly really isn't all that difficult. At least it hasn't been difficult for me, or the people I hunt with.

The deer that they are shooting in the States are smaller than my dog so all his comments tells me is that up here the 223 is good enough for coyote hunting.

So how many of you have never had an animal move at the shot if you haven't all it tells me is that most of you that are promoting smaller calibers like the 223 just haven't shot very many animals.

Respect the animal and take a cartridge that will do the job more efficiently like O'Connor's 270 Win.

 

[Camp Cook]

Read the article. Make your own choice.

Keith bragged about his exploits in print. In my books he's a bum.

All your comment means to me is you do not understand the situation and what he did or are you saying he should not have done anything and just let the wounded deer escape?

Keith told his story and was not bragging he was stating a fact which was his way and he was totally upset when people with little or no understanding of what he had accomplished started condeming what he had done.

Time for another Centennial & Coke...

 

[stubblejumper]

I am not a fan of either person.I don't believe in heavy for caliber bullets,and I won't own any 270.

 

[Johnn Peterson]

The deer that they are shooting in the States are smaller than my dog so all his comments tells me is that up here the 223 is good enough for coyote hunting.

So how many of you have never had an animal move at the shot if you haven't all it tells me is that most of you that are promoting smaller calibers like the 223 just haven't shot very many animals.

Respect the animal and take a cartridge that will do the job more efficiently like O'Connor's 270 Win.

Only one that I can think of, "Princess Tu Tu". Every shot taken is a perfect executed example or precise marksmanship. They don't even twitch for him, otherwise he'd never trigger the shot.Winds don't blow or gust, the sun stands still..............he is God.

 

[Johnn Peterson]

All your comment means to me is you do not understand the situation and what he did or are you saying he should not have done anything and just let the wounded deer escape?

Keith told his story and was not bragging he was stating a fact which was his way and he was totally upset when people with little or no understanding of what he had accomplished started condeming what he had done.

Time for another Centennial & Coke...

Once more, shhh.

 

[Gatehouse]

Ethical hunting is always an interesting debate. Which is more ethical of the two? Using a .223 on bear with a property constructed bullet or cowboy hat wearing yahoo pumping rounds through a 4" .44 magum at a running deer that is 600 yards away? Read the article of Keith's great "feat" here.

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=34

Then give this link a try and input the data for a .44 magnum at 600 yards. Take note of the drop and energy at 600 yards.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/

The only term appropriate is "slob hunter."

Good point!

Elmer made a number of long range handgun shots on game IIRC.

Apparently that is okay with John Petersen, but I am unethical for taking a shot I knew I could easily make.

 

[Gatehouse]

Ethical hunting is always an interesting debate. Which is more ethical of the two? Using a .223 on bear with a property constructed bullet or cowboy hat wearing yahoo pumping rounds through a 4" .44 magum at a running deer that is 600 yards away? Read the article of Keith's great "feat" here.

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=34

Then give this link a try and input the data for a .44 magnum at 600 yards. Take note of the drop and energy at 600 yards.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/

The only term appropriate is "slob hunter."

Good point!

Elmer made a number of long range handgun shots on game IIRC. Apparently that is okay with John Petersen, but I am unethical for taking a shot I knew I could easily make.

 

[Camp Cook]

Keith thru years of devoted shooting learnt the capabilities of the cartridges/bullets he designed and was extremely proficient in their use.

It blows me away that some people feel they are qualified to judge one of the greatest masters of the firearms industry and say that because they can't do the same thing that it was wrong for Keith to do it is unbelievable.

 

[Gatehouse]

]

The deer that they are shooting in the States are smaller than my dog so all his comments tells me is that up here the 223 is good enough for coyote hunting.

Interesting perspective.

So how many of you have never had an animal move at the shot if you haven't all it tells me is that most of you that are promoting smaller calibers like the 223 just haven't shot very many animals.

Actually, the bear I shot with a .223 was moving when I shot him. So was the mule deer that bartell shot with his .221 Fireball.

The animal doesn't necessarily have to be standing motionless for a person to make a clean, ethical kill. As I said before regarding placing a shot correctly- It's just not that difficult.

Respect the animal and take a cartridge that will do the job more efficiently like O'Connor's 270 Win.

Down and out on the spot, or within in a couple of stumbling steps isn't efficient enough? How much more efficient do we need?

Only one that I can think of, "Princess Tu Tu". Every shot taken is a perfect executed example or precise marksmanship. They don't even twitch for him, otherwise he'd never trigger the shot.Winds don't blow or gust, the sun stands still..............he is God.

Still obsessed with me, eh?

Give it up, I'm not interested in your sick perverted fantasies about me....

 

[Calum]

And for the rest of our viewers...This is what Cabin fever looks like out here in BC.

 

[Gatehouse]

Keith thru years of devoted shooting learnt the capabilities of the cartridges/bullets he designed and was extremely proficient in their use.

It blows me away that some people feel they are qualified to judge one of the greatest masters of the firearms industry and say that because they can't do the same thing that it was wrong for Keith to do it is unbelievable.

Please don't think that is my opinion, it's not.

keith was an incredible marksman, and when he shot at game at long range with a handgun, he knew where the bullet was going to land, and what it was going to do.

And when I shot the bear with a .223, I knew where the bullet was going to land, and what it was going to do, too!

For this it's been suggested that it was an unethical choice, which is complete BS.

Keith told his story and was not bragging he was stating a fact which was his way and he was totally upset when people with little or no understanding of what he had accomplished started condeming what he had done.

Sorta like people with little or no understanding of killing big game with a .223 start condemning what was done.

 

[BigUglyMan]

And for the rest of our viewers...This is what Cabin fever looks like out here in BC.

Yup...

 

[Johnn Peterson]

Still obsessed with me, eh?

Give it up, I'm not interested in your sick perverted fantasies about me....

You do have illusions of grandeur, again, but you're the only one with those fantisies reaching or wishing for that conclucive end. I'd much rather be the Bear in your 223 hunts. If you've decided to 'come out' of the closet, you're going to have to try the San Fran area again. Oh, that's right. You scared the ###s in that area straight with your previous, 'performances'. Well, you could always go for a repeat guest appearance on Jerry Springer. The other option you may be able to handle, something within your capabilities, flip a burger for me? Oh, and let me know when you publish the book on your 2% capabilities.

 

[Camp Cook]

I have shot over 25 deer with a 22-250 and 55gr Sierra SP @ 3660fps muzzle velocity all dropped instantly with a 1/4" hole in the front of the neck and a 2" hole out the back of the neck and nothing but the hide holding the head to the body.

I now load 55gr Trophy Bonded Bearclaws in both my 223 & 22-250's and am totally aware of these cartridges capabilities and I am not just passing judgement from 2 animals.

As far as my experience with these little bullets is they will do the job if you do yours the problem comes when Murphy pops out of nowhere and everything doesn't go as planned the possiblity of ending up with a wounded animal is too great for me to promote using a marginal round.

GH I do not doubt that you are capable with your firearms/cartridge/bullet choices what I see is the problem of sharing is that others that may not be as skilled will also give it a try resulting in wounded animals.

There are to many wounded animals with the larger cartridges due to poor markmanship all ready

Cabin Fever you've got that right...

I just got back from a 2 week trip and I'm already going nutz to get out of here it will only be 2 weeks before I leave on a 3 week prospecting/grizzly hunt again and it seems like forever.

Time for another C & C before I have to have a date night with my wife we're watching some chick flick movie...

 

[Dogleg]

I still don't understand why some folks feel the need to take shots at critters beyond 200 meters...and 600 meter shots is just insanity IMHO.

That perspective may be because of where you live. In much of the country I hunt in 200 yards is a very short shot, and if you can't shoot 300 you are taking one heck of a handicap. On a calm day 300 yard gophers aren't particularly hard to hit, 300 is still within the pointblank range of dozens of big-game cartridges and 400 is pointblank for a very few. None of 'em are Keith's pumpkin rollers.

 

[Gatehouse]

You do have illusions of grandeur, again, but you're the only one with those fantisies reaching or wishing for that conclucive end. I'd much rather be the Bear in your 223 hunts. If you've decided to 'come out' of the closet, you're going to have to try the San Fran area again. Oh, that's right. You scared the ###s in that area straight with your previous, 'performances'. Well, you could always go for a repeat guest appearance on Jerry Springer. The other option you may be able to handle, something within your capabilities, flip a burger for me? Oh, and let me know when you publish the book on your 2% capabilities.

Wow.....You really ARE obsessed with me

First you were obsessing over a fantasy of me in womens clothing, and now you are now making up a fantasy world with fantasy stories about me in it.