1911 tests - enough to make TDC's head explode.

[TDC]

I started out by commenting on TDC statement regarding "Most 1911 Shooters" that he has seen. My point is that TDC's experience is very limited if he is seeing "Most 1911 Shooters" leaving their safety's on.
TDC likes to speak as if he has vast knowledge and experience but when he makes statements like this it exposes him as having very limited experience.

Rich

Rich,

Again, this is your opinion which isn't supported by anything. Again, you still haven't disputed what I've posted which leads me to believe you haven't the knowledge to debate it or that what I've posted is fact.

T-star,

You proved my point precisely. Your old 1911 seems to run like a sewing machine and its still stock. So I ask again, if Mr, Vickers(the undisputed king of 1911's) has no trouble teaching with Glocks and you have a stock 1911 that makes hits and runs reliably, why the need for the high dollar "look cool" guns? Its obviously not for reliability. Yourself(and others I'm sure) indicate that a high dollar 1911 isn't required for accuracy. Mr. Vickers and many who shoot Glocks and other brands seem to disprove that belief as well. So, why the need for a high dollar 1911??

Above all this, could someone please tell me what a 1911 offers that is an advantage over a Glock or SIG etc etc and why?

Rustspot,
The video you posted is old news. As T-star posted, its poor and/or a lack of training. Again, disengaging the thumb safety while drawing your 1911 is common practice. That being the case, what increased level of safety does it offer if its only applied when in the holster where the grip safety is also doing its job, passively. The three safeties on Glocks are all doing their job right up until you make contact with the trigger and have made the conscious decision to shoot. Those who forget to disengage the safety often forget to reengage the safety. The sh*t between your ears is the important device, not the mechanical ones.

TDC

ETA: fixed

 

[yyyyy]

Above all this, could someone please tell me what a 1911 offers that is an advantage over a Glock or SIG etc etc?

I would say that you should probably qualify that question, or as I often ask, if someone says it is better, they should say why or what for...

 

[SCULLY]

This is an ancient test from Larry, some people always get there panties in a knot over it. Larry does not and will not hold any punches, regardless if "you" think he has anything to gain or not. Larry Vickers is the most knowledgeable guy on the planet when it comes to building, running and maintaining fighting/hard use 1911's (all from on the job experience). From some of the comments here, you guys would be very very surprised about what he thinks about 1911's .

 

[Clobbersauras]

From some of the comments here, you guys would be very very surprised about what he thinks about 1911's .

Yeah he thinks they are an aficionados weapon that require the user to practically be their own pistol smith to run them reliably.

 

[Rich LPS]

TDC,

You were commenting directly on the aspects of the 1911 pistol and how most 1911 shooters you have seen have forgot to take the safety off before firing.

To spell this out to you: Based on your comment (s) you have not seen very many 1911 shooters. When I competed in IPSC for 16 years or so I saw more than my share of 1911 shooters / lovers. I never saw one forget to take his safety off before firing. Granted some were quicker at it than others.

This leads me to believe that you have limited experience when you make these comments and the many others you have posted (about everything it seems). When I have pointed this out to you, your feelings are hurt. There's nothing wrong with being an shooting / firearm enthusiast. It's when you pretend to know more than you do that it gets intertaining and annoying after a while. Don't believe everything you read on the internet or pretend you are an expert on the internet.

Rich Out.

 

[beltfed]

I think you have me confused for someone else. I didn't shoot the ATHL match last Sunday. Oh and by the way, the individual in question failed to finish due to time constraints at another course of fire. Which from what I hear was later removed from the match.
TDC

That's too bad you didn't finish...you could've seen how badly you got spanked by a 1911 firing full house ammo...and one that had the safety left on for a full second to tighten up the race to boot....

 

[Greenhorse six]

Glocks fail at a lesser rate than other firearms.

The difference between Glocks and 1911's come down to design. The 1911 incorporates several "features" that are not desirable and/or necessary. The simplicity of the Glock and its overall design make it the most ideal pistol for the role it was intended. Exposed hammers, single stack mags, positive safeties and all metal construction are not necessary in a combat pistol. Nor are they any significant benefit over the modern alternatives. Reliability aside, the 1911 is still:

over weight
overly complex(number of parts)
excessive recoiling(in the original 45 ACP)
low capacity
temper mental maintenance queen
TDC

Oh,Boy,Where did you find this gem "Glocks fail at a lesser rate then other firearms." that's a pretty bold statement.

"The differnce between Glocks and 1911 come down to design." Really?

What"features" are not "desirable"?

Over weight? That helps soak up recoil from the Big .45ACP. not that it's real bad to start with,the legend not with standing.

Overly Complex?How so?,I can stripe down the 1911 ,and I mean right down to the bare frame without the use of any tools aside from the parts of the gun itself.

Low Capacity? If you find that you need more then 2x 8 round mag +1 to settle something,well my friend ,you should have brought a rifle ,or a shotgun [with a light on it.] ,it is after all,just a side arm.

And my favourite,"tempermental maintenance queen." Thats funny,then how did it have a over 70year service life with the U.S. Military [and still in use by some Units.] and use by countrys as far away as Norway and some south america countrys and others to be sure.

not to mention [o.k. I am] that almost every handgun maker is making one in some forum or another to suit the needs of anything you could think of wanting.

Not knocking the Glock,I'd like to get one some day, But how can you Knock something that's as battle tested as the 1911, it's been around for soo long for a reason, and a good reason too ,it does the job.

 

[TDC]

TDC,

You were commenting directly on the aspects of the 1911 pistol and how most 1911 shooters you have seen have forgot to take the safety off before firing.

To spell this out to you: Based on your comment (s) you have not seen very many 1911 shooters. When I competed in IPSC for 16 years or so I saw more than my share of 1911 shooters / lovers. I never saw one forget to take his safety off before firing. Granted some were quicker at it than others.

This leads me to believe that you have limited experience when you make these comments and the many others you have posted (about everything it seems). When I have pointed this out to you, your feelings are hurt. There's nothing wrong with being an shooting / firearm enthusiast. It's when you pretend to know more than you do that it gets intertaining and annoying after a while. Don't believe everything you read on the internet or pretend you are an expert on the internet.

Rich Out.

Rich,

Your experience in IPSC far out weighs mine, I don't shoot IPSC. I do agree, most of the serious competitors in IPSC are more than capable of running their 1911's with ease. My experience with 1911 shooters is based around 3 gun matches, range visits(other shooters) and what i've seen on course. I have seen my share of "race guns" or high dollar 1911's sh*t the bed on a relatively frequent basis. Regardless of failures, the most common issue I see with those running 1911's is forgetting the safety and not seating the magazine(particularly those mags without bumpers). You admit that some IPSC shooters were faster at removing the safety than others. This statement supports what I've seen and profess, the manual safety on 1911's is neither needed nor is it an advantage.

My feelings are far from hurt and I'm far from an "expert" nor did I ever claim to be. It makes me head hurt to post some logic followed with a little common sense only to find very little evidence against that which I post. Rather I see personal attacks and hollow third party information. Its obvious that those who cannot find fault in what is posted either don't have the knowledge to debate the subject, or the information was correct to begin with.

I appreciate your clarification Rich, thanks.

TDC

 

[TDC]

That's too bad you didn't finish...you could've seen how badly you got spanked by a 1911 firing full house ammo...and one that had the safety left on for a full second to tighten up the race to boot....

Read back in the thread Beltfed, I wasn't at the shoot. Furthermore, ATHL is a game, it incorporates little if any tactics.

TDC

 

[TDC]

Oh,Boy,Where did you find this gem "Glocks fail at a lesser rate then other firearms." that's a pretty bold statement.

"The differnce between Glocks and 1911 come down to design." Really?

What"features" are not "desirable"?

Over weight? That helps soak up recoil from the Big .45ACP. not that it's real bad to start with,the legend not with standing.

Overly Complex?How so?,I can stripe down the 1911 ,and I mean right down to the bare frame without the use of any tools aside from the parts of the gun itself.

Low Capacity? If you find that you need more then 2x 8 round mag +1 to settle something,well my friend ,you should have brought a rifle ,or a shotgun [with a light on it.] ,it is after all,just a side arm.

And my favourite,"tempermental maintenance queen." Thats funny,then how did it have a over 70year service life with the U.S. Military [and still in use by some Units.] and use by countrys as far away as Norway and some south america countrys and others to be sure.

not to mention [o.k. I am] that almost every handgun maker is making one in some forum or another to suit the needs of anything you could think of wanting.

Not knocking the Glock,I'd like to get one some day, But how can you Knock something that's as battle tested as the 1911, it's been around for soo long for a reason, and a good reason too ,it does the job.

Lets start this again. AS has been mentioned, Mr. Vickers himself and many who own 1911's admit they require tuning to run properly, and constant tuning to maintain.

Undesirable features:

Exposed hammer is not necessary.

Manual/positive safety is not necessary and requires an additional step/thought before firing.

Single stack magazines and their subsequent limited capacities are inferior. The ignorant belief perpetuated by 1911 shooters and revolver lovers "if you can't solve the problem in 6/8/3x8 then you can't solve it in 10/15/20 etc" is nothing more than an attempt to justify their purchase of an inferior system. Unlike gaming, two rounds provides no guarantee of stopping the threat. Unlike gaming, living threats move. Unlike gaming, living threats shoot back which makes squaring off in an upright stance difficult and dangerous. Unlike gaming, the terrain isn't always flat and obstacle free. Unlike gaming, the number of threats isn't always known. The above aside, reloading more often than others is a handicap that costs time and situational awareness which isn't desirable in either gaming or a defensive shoot. Carrying two spare mags with an additional 20-34 rounds plus the 10-17 rounds in the gun without sacrificing anymore space on the belt is a clear advantage.

Over weight due to the all metal construction. As for recoil control it helps, but the 45ACP cartridge is over rated.

Overly complex. 52 pieces in a 1911, 35 in a Glock you do the math. Fewer parts means less to break/fail.

The extended service life of the 1911 isn't necessarily based on its performance. For starters, most of its service life was spent as a sign of rank or as a backup for gunners. I'm not saying it didn't see its share of use, it surely did. The deployment of handguns as an effective tool wasn't the norm. Second, take the Beretta for example, its been the service arm for 20 some years now and its not exactly a stellar piece of equipment. The US military adopted the french Chauchet(sp?) machine gun during WWII and it is a known fact it was a genuine piece of sh*t even during evaulation in ideal conditions.

The great selection of makes/models of 1911's available today is simply marketing. The 1911 platform is the ideal platform for gaming and is well suited to modifications. Firearms manufacturers are in business to make money, if the market wants another 1911 in X configuration, someone will offer it. Add to that the blind patriotism of the US population towards anything "all American".

I'm not saying the 1911 is a useless tool, its not. You are correct, its near 100 year lineage speaks a lot about the design. The 1911 is capable of getting the job done. However, it is no longer the most capable design.

TDC

 

[t-star]

as far as the limited capacity thing goes, we were issued 12 rounders ( SINGLE STACK!)
as the primary in nam, - made in someplace in new york state- and 2 issue 7 rounders-
since the para et al only run 14, i fail to see the difference - that's 24 rounds, a half box- or over a full box of the military white box( 20 rounds) if you need more than that to resolve the situation, you need a MAC

 

[TDC]

Could you conceal a 12 round single stack mag and a full size 1911? Is the Para lineup in double stack easily concealed?

TDC

 

[t-star]

hey, it's the military- we don't give a sh*t about concealment- the thing rides in a big-assed holster off the left or right hip-if you want to go concealed and 45 , you go mac-scatter with a suitcoat

 

[TDC]

With a 12 round mag sticking out of the gun how do you go prone and maintain a low profile? Aside from that, are you saying the 1911 is a role specific system?

TDC

 

[Mike Oxlong]

.....living threats move....living threats shoot back.... the number of threats isn't always known.
TDC

You're absolutely right!

So, how much 'force on force' training have you taken from a reputable school/instructor? And how often do you practice 'force on force'?

If you haven't/don't, then you're just .....

 

[TDC]

I've done force on force through SIG Arms Academy and continue to train with a couple o buddies with the use if airsoft. You are correct, force on force training is important and should be practiced as much as possible. That aside, selecting gear that will aid you in most situations is sound logic, hence the discussion regarding the 1911 and its disadvantages.

TDC

 

[DATAM]

Regardless of who writes what on this forum; anyone that thinks a 1911 is an inferior weapon should sit down and write a long essay on why an inferior weapon has remained in constant military use for over a hundred years. Having said that, I can name several reasons why it is prefered by some special forces, over the Browning and other high capacity semi autos. But other more knowledgeable and experienced people than I have already done so ad naseum. (.45 inferior??? poor Jeff Cooper must be turning in his grave)

 

[beltfed]

My experience ... is based around 3 gun matches, range visits(other shooters) and what i've seen on course.

...I'm far from an "expert" nor did I ever claim to be.

...hollow third party information.

TDC

I couldn't have summed up you or your opinion on alot of what I read on this website any better, so I just snipped it out of your post.

I love how you make assumptions and statements as though they were fact without back-up or proof, but yet demand it of others involved in your discussion. Brilliant.

 

[yyyyy]

It looks like if you are saying TDC's proof, also known as an opinion, is just subjective... So then too is the "proof" about the 1911. Funny, he offers up where he has trained etc and offered context while others just troll and call names. Eg: Mike Oxlong - How much Force on Force training have you done?


Cooper would have a ton of positive stuff to say about the glock I am sure if he could see it's through the same time as we are. He got the 1911 long before the Glock came out, so comparing "the long service history" isn't really fair given you can't look at 100 years of each pistol.

I think I read somewhere there are currently 4 million glocks on hips as service/duty... Were there ever that many 1911's carried professionally?

What about 500 bucks to 500 bucks comparison. What sort of reliability do you get from a 500 dollar 1911 out of the box compared to a glock.

This is a more fair comparison than the "what do you know" or
jeff cooper said" comments as there are two sides to everything.

Note: He hasn't said "just because"or "because Paul Howe uses one isntead of his custom Delta 1911, etc..."

I appreciate that TDC is willing to debate the issue against a few interested posters, and an army of fanboys on both sides. He also hasn't said the 1911 isn't a great gun. He is saying there has been evolution since then.

Evolution... Hmmm. Remember, some people think the world was created in 7 days too based on old stories, movies and myths. Therefore god himself made the 1911 with a piece of Adams rib...

 

[yyyyy]

Cooper on the Glock

"The continued sales triumph of Glock pistols demonstrates the virtues of skillful marketing. The Glock is okay. It is generally reliable, it is comparatively inexpensive, and it is available in respectable calibers. Above all, its aftermarket service is superior. The great part of its sales comes from police departments, where maintenance and quick service are of primary importance. It may not be the best choice for the expert pistolero, but such people are not in the majority."

Funny... Did the Col. ever meet Dave Sevigny.