Questions about Range Burlington

[robertf]

Lets see:

• 
  I'd appreciate if you would have those people contact me directly. Because in the 4 years I've been on the BoD, that has never happend to the best of my knowledge. Extensions are almost always granted, unless there are other mitigating (typically safety related) issues.

• 
  They have both since joined other clubs.
  
  
  
  

  False. We do have a few, but none are any more onerous than the rules at any of the surrounding, not for profit clubs.

  Can you provide examples? I'll go there, do a safety course, and probably be shooting before I get my ATT from Burlington.
  
  
  
  

  Also false. Wentworth, Galt, HAHA, T.I.T.S. (what an unfortunate acronym ) Colby, Guelph, Niagara, Silverdale....just to name a few of the dozens of clubs that are within 90-minutes drive of the Golden horseshoe.

  I'm not familiar with T.I.T.S, (at least not in this context) But how are any of those clubs closer to someone who lives in Mississauga, Oakville, Milton, Etobicoke, ect.
  
  
  

  Wow. Wall of text, tl;dr. Join BRRC, its a great club, with a healthy membership and bright future.

  
  BRRC does have potential, I agree. That's because it really has a lot of room for improvement. Some suggestions (since I know you are a progressive board member with a sympathetic ear)
  
  1. Having the range closed EVERY weeknight to people that don't want to shoot as part of IPSC, PPC, Black Powder, etc is highly restrictive. Every single weeknight?!? C'mon. Let get real here, 95% of members don't belong to one of these groups, so why monopolize 100% of the prime time shooting hours for 5% of the club. That makes no business sense at all, or any other type of sense. Suggestion. Change that so disciplines use the range once a month, not every week, or half of the ports.
  
  2. Streamline the application process. We want to encourage new members to join, lets make it much quicker and easier. The current process of mandatory attendance at 6 nights is insane. You want to encourage people to join the disciplines, not blackmail them into watching. I'd suggest what Target Sports does. They had a BBQ in May, (Sig Day) had literally hundreds and hundreds or people out. A $20 ticket got you lunch, a chance to shoot 3 different types if SIG's, and a chance to win a 226. I'm guessing they signed up a couple hundred new members that day. All of which will be able to shoot with full privileges as soon as they pass they safety course. I"m also told they get their ATT in a week. (I've been waiting 6 weeks for mine now) How about an IPCS pig roast, or Black Powder old fashioned BBQ!
  
  3. New members should be treated like customers, not 2nd class citizens. I've already mentioned an example with Mike. Another example is I was walking off the range with 20 other new members through the little walkway, I got nudged over because of crowding, (and the cast on my leg) and my foot landed on the painted line. The director, I don't know his name, quipped at me, "If that happens one more time you're out of here!"
  You don't talk to people like that, this isn't the army.
  
  4. There is no actual website, get one. I mean I know this whole internet thing is new but c'mon. Please don't answer back that rangerburlington.com is a website, because it's not, it's a forum.

 

[darkshadow]

Another thread from people who don't like BRRC but don't want to step up and help out people who volunteer to help the club.

Is that really a complaint?!?!?!? the club is closing to make it bigger, taller, wider and better? Wow your right shame on you Burlington!

The observation nights are great, with out them I would not have been introduced to and fell in love with IPSC, which I now shoot.

With the number of people in the area, and people wanting to join if we opened our doors to anyone with a license the CFO would shut us down with in a month. As a safety Instructor at BRRC I see some interesting things from 'experienced' students that have been shooting for 'years'

The Aurora Gun Club, it’s 45 minutes from my house, a very direct route. 25 meter indoor range, 24/7 access (although right now only till 10:30pm until renovations are complete) 11 ports, handgun, shotgun(no slugs), rimfire (NO RIFLE), parking. Membership is reasonable ~300$

Comparisons can always be made. You ONLY have 25 meters, 10:30 is too early I shoot at night, only 11 ports? can always get one more in at Burlington, we can shoot slugs from the ports and shot down range, all calibers up to 50BMG, Tons of parking well lit secure, close to amenities and membership is ONLY 170/year.


See how petty that sounds?

 

[robertf]

Another thread from people who don't like BRRC but don't want to step up and help out people who volunteer to help the club.

People would likely be more willing to help if they felt more welcome. Every single person on my safety course was dumbfounded at how we were treated on the observation nights, and the actual process.

Is that really a complaint?!?!?!? the club is closing to make it bigger, taller, wider and better? Wow your right shame on you Burlington!

Does this mean regular members will be able to shoot on weeknights? If so then fantastic!

The observation nights are great, with out them I would not have been introduced to and fell in love with IPSC, which I now shoot.

I've already beaten this to death, don't blackmail people into attending, encourage them. Have you ever been to a gym that wouldn't let you work out until you've done 1 night of aerobics, 1 night of spinning, 1 night of weight lifting, 1 night of squash, 1 night on the treadmill... of course not, they'd go out of business. BTW, you can't actually do any of these activities, you can only watch some guy running on the treadmill! LMAO

With the number of people in the area, and people wanting to join if we opened our doors to anyone with a license the CFO would shut us down with in a month.

Are you saying you intentionally make it difficult to join to discourage membership?

As a safety Instructor at BRRC I see some interesting things from 'experienced' students that have been shooting for 'years'

Isn't that what the safety course is for?

 

[euxx]

2. Streamline the application process. We want to encourage new members to join...

Yes and no. It is ok to create a little challenge, so we'll have a solid group of people who is enjoying the shooting. After all, it is a club and not just a place where you can come and shoot alone. That is why I like those week day nights at BRRC.

I'd suggest what Target Sports does. They had a BBQ in May, (Sig Day) had literally hundreds and hundreds or people out. A $20 ticket got you lunch, a chance to shoot 3 different types if SIG's, and a chance to win a 226. I'm guessing they signed up a couple hundred new members that day.

I suppose you are guessing. It is highly unlikely they got that many members with their $500 annual charge.

...Another example is I was walking off the range with 20 other new members through the little walkway, I got nudged over because of crowding, (and the cast on my leg) and my foot landed on the painted line. The director, I don't know his name, quipped at me, "If that happens one more time you're out of here!"
You don't talk to people like that, this isn't the army.

Didn't you just attended the safety course where you been thought that you should never ever step on the yellow line? It is a major safety violation and it really need to be enforced.

4. There is no actual website, get one. I mean I know this whole internet thing is new but c'mon. Please don't answer back that rangerburlington.com is a website, because it's not, it's a forum.

Why don't you create one while waiting for your ATT?

 

[euxx]

Does this mean regular members will be able to shoot on weeknights? If so then fantastic!

I don't get your complains. Are you saying that you don't shoot action pistol, bulls eye, rifle, silhouette or air guns? What else do you want to shoot?

Anyways, it is not a big secret that few nights are usually done before 10pm, so you have some time for your plinking.

 

[robertf]

Yes and no. It is ok to create a little challenge, so we'll have a solid group of people who is enjoying the shooting. After all, it is a club and not just a place where you can come and shoot alone. That is why I like those week day nights at BRRC.

Ya, that makes a lot of sense... let's make it as difficult and inconvenient as possible for new members so we can make sure they enjoy shooting. Are you a board member?

I suppose you are guessing. It is highly unlikely they got that many members with their $500 annual charge.

I did say I was guessing, but there were people filling out applications the entire time I was there. I'd pay $500 to join there if it was closer, say in Burlington. A lot of other BRRC members would jump ship in a second.

Didn't you just attended the safety course where you been thought that you should never ever step on the yellow line? It is a major safety violation and it really need to be enforced.

I did say I got pushed over the line right? With a cast on my leg! Shake your head. You don't need to threaten people to get your point across. How old are you?

Why don't you create one while waiting for your ATT?

If I had the skills I gladly would. But with all the membership dues you could have collected from potential members you've scared away you could have an amazing website, and a gold plated backstop for that matter.

 

[robertf]

I don't get your complains. Are you saying that you don't shoot action pistol, bulls eye, rifle, silhouette or air guns? What else do you want to shoot?

Anyways, it is not a big secret that few nights are usually done before 10pm, so you have some time for your plinking.

Actually, I shoot IPSC, but sometimes I just want to shoot my AR. If I get there at 10 pm, that makes for a very late night for those of us with jobs in the morning.

 

[jdman]

With the number of people in the area, and people wanting to join if we opened our doors to anyone with a license the CFO would shut us down with in a month. As a safety Instructor at BRRC I see some interesting things from 'experienced' students that have been shooting for 'years'

These people have all taken the firearms safety course.
If there is things that are not on with some members safety, then id say the onus is on the instructor of the course, not the student.
You take the course (cfsc) then you get a membership. Thats the way it is at every range i have belonged to. You dont need to be supervised, nor do you need to "watch" some other disciplines which most are not doing. I am one of them. I shoot for fun, to release frustrations, or sometimes just to get out in the open with out anyone else around but me.
I dont shoot ipsc,idpa,cowboy action, ect. I just shoot my guns at targets. I dont look down on others whom are interested in these things, but hey thats just me.

 

[euxx]

Ya, that makes a lot of sense... let's make it as difficult and inconvenient as possible for new members so we can make sure they enjoy shooting. Are you a board member?

FYI, most of the BRRC board members are actually section directors and some of them served the club for over a decade. It takes some dedication, i.e. show up at the section night every week. I personallydon't have such dedication.

I did say I was guessing, but there were people filling out applications the entire time I was there. I'd pay $500 to join there if it was closer, say in Burlington. A lot of other BRRC members would jump ship in a second.

Maybe they would or maybe they wouldn't. Keep guessing.

I did say I got pushed over the line right? With a cast on my leg! Shake your head. You don't need to threaten people to get your point across. How old are you?

Yeah, yeah, I heard you the first time, yet still that is not an excuse to violate the range safety rules, regardless how old I am. Actually I will live longer if guys I am shooting with won't step over the yellow line while range door is open.

If I had the skills I gladly would. But with all the membership dues you could have collected from potential members you've scared away you could have an amazing website, and a gold plated backstop for that matter.

Most of that fund will be spend for the range renovation, while club will be closed starting from beginning of July (according to the last update).

Actually, I shoot IPSC, but sometimes I just want to shoot my AR. If I get there at 10 pm, that makes for a very late night for those of us with jobs in the morning.

Here you go. You can shot with the IPCS section and you can shoot your AR at rifle night.

Anyways, the BRRC is making a real effort to support various shooting sport disciplines, hence the section nights. If you don't like that, you really could have done your home work before taking the safety course. It is unfortunate that the only shooting club that is close to the place you live is favoring the shooting sport enthusisasts, but hey, you can always move closer to your favorite shooting range.

 

[robertf]

FYI, most of the BRRC board members are actually section directors and some of them served the club for over a decade. It takes some dedication, i.e. show up at the section night every week. I personallydon't have such dedication.

That's a big problem with the club, it is being run by guys who run the various disciplines thusly alienating 95% of the membership. You are aware that the vast majority or members have no interest in shooting a particular discipline. They, like myself, just want to come out and shoot whatever they want at their own pace.

Yeah, yeah, I heard you the first time, yet still that is not an excuse to violate the range safety rules, regardless how old I am. Actually I will live longer if guys I am shooting with won't step over the yellow line while range door is open.

It's like talking to rock, you're not listening. Regardless of the fact I was pushed, you don't threaten someone, you coach them. Obviously in this case no coaching was necessary, anyone with any intelligence could have seen that. If you stress that easily, I'd suggest another pass time, shooting doesn't seem to be working for you.

Here you go. You can shot with the IPCS section and you can shoot your AR at rifle night.

I can't shoot on rifle night because you also need to have a rimfire to shoot rifle night, you are scored on both.

Anyways, the BRRC is making a real effort to support various shooting sport disciplines, hence the section nights. If you don't like that, you really could have done your home work before taking the safety course.

What homework??? Please show me anywhere in club literature where it says I wouldn't be allowed to use the range on weeknights, the most popular and convenient time to shoot. This fact wasn't told to our safety course until after we paid for and took the course. How many members does BRRC have? 1400? How many members shoot in the sections? Maybe 10-12 each night? So basically 1300 members can't shoot in prime time so that the directors and their friends totaling maybe 75-100 people can monopolize the range every single weeknight until 10 or 11pm. If you fail to see the blatantly obvious lack of logic in that, I certainly hope you don't earn a living in a business management position. Here endeth the lesson.

 

[darkshadow]

These people have all taken the firearms safety course.
If there is things that are not on with some members safety, then id say the onus is on the instructor of the course, not the student.
You take the course (cfsc) then you get a membership. Thats the way it is at every range i have belonged to. You dont need to be supervised, nor do you need to "watch" some other disciplines which most are not doing. I am one of them. I shoot for fun, to release frustrations, or sometimes just to get out in the open with out anyone else around but me.

Not necessarily every one with a restricted license has taken any safety course. Many challenge the test, and most of the people holding a license taking the range course have NEVER shot or handled a life hand gun before!!

It is fine that you just shoot for fun, but don't you want to KNOW that the guy next to you will be safe and will not endanger you while your out having fun?

Not only that but I do believe that the CFO requires a safety course for club membership in Ontario.

I know 2 people who could not complete this requirement in the required times due to work hours and had their membership revoked... no refund.

As for the observation nights they are for the new shooters to see what is out there, sorry if you are already a champion shooter with no need of these disciplines, they are not that much to ask. I would guess the "two friends" spoken of do not exist. If they had why would you have joined? and I am sure they would have complained.

That's a big problem with the club, it is being run by guys who run the various disciplines thusly alienating 95% of the membership. You are aware that the vast majority or members have no interest in shooting a particular discipline. They, like myself, just want to come out and shoot whatever they want at their own pace.

Speak for your self and stop pulling number out of your ass.

I can't shoot on rifle night because you also need to have a rimfire to shoot rifle night, you are scored on both.

Read up a bit you can shoot rimfire at both or centerfire at both if that is all you have.

It is a fun night, compare you scores with others see who wins free targets with the best poker hand.

It's like talking to rock, you're not listening. Regardless of the fact I was pushed, you don't threaten someone, you coach them. Obviously in this case no coaching was necessary, anyone with any intelligence could have seen that. If you stress that easily, I'd suggest another pass time, shooting doesn't seem to be working for you.

Perhaps you should find a new hobby as well. And how old are you? calling out "HE PUSHED ME" seams very mature. Sorry your feelings were hurt when the big bad safety man yelled at you, but he was trying to inculcate a big safety rule. Maybe instead of arguing about it you could have just said " yes, sorry wont happen again"

 

[bjhill]

Well if you don,t like the organized groups that shoot there shoot when they are not there i have never had a problem.The indoctrination is an educational process to enlighten you to the various disiplines and the proper safe handling of firearms by experienced people.If you don,t want to put the time in there are other clubs.

 

[skeetgunner]

They have both since joined other clubs.

Pity. I find that when people are frustrated with a process, they often tend to walk away, rather than drop by the club or send an email. Our typical response is to grant extenstions (and even the rare exemption) when people are having issues with the mandatory observations nights.

Can you provide examples? I'll go there, do a safety course, and probably be shooting before I get my ATT from Burlington.

http://www.wssclub.com/members.htm and see section under mandatory shoots. 10 at least.

http://www.hahaclub.ca/HAHA-Application2009.pdf and see last section of second page. All new members are on mandatory probation for their first calendar year.

I could go on, but the point is not to create additional drama around Ontario clubs, its to prove that BRRC has one of the LEAST oneruse enrollement procecess of any not-for-protit (note the distinction, leaves out Silverdale) club in the GTA.

I'm not familiar with T.I.T.S, (at least not in this context) But how are any of those clubs closer to someone who lives in Mississauga, Oakville, Milton, Etobicoke, ect.

Stands for Toronto International Trap Shooters. All of the clubs I mention are within a 90min drive (or less) of central Mississauga.

That's because it really has a lot of room for improvement. Some suggestions (since I know you are a progressive board member with a sympathetic ear)

Of course there is room for improvement. But as a BoD member yourself (Halton PC's right), I'll assume you understand the ramifications of only having one vote on that board.

1. Having the range closed EVERY weeknight to people that don't want to shoot as part of IPSC, PPC, Black Powder, etc is highly restrictive. Every single weeknight?!? C'mon. Let get real here, 95% of members don't belong to one of these groups, so why monopolize 100% of the prime time shooting hours for 5% of the club.

Actually, based on attendence and card-swipes, its a lot more than 95/5. Much closer to 60/40 and edging up.

That makes no business sense at all, or any other type of sense. Suggestion. Change that so disciplines use the range once a month, not every week, or half of the ports.

It doesn't have to make business sense, as the club is NOT a business (at least in the for-profit sense). The club serves the membership. If the membership wants a change, they can start a petition, bring it up at a BoD meeting, make a motion at the AGM etc.

2. Streamline the application process. We want to encourage new members to join, lets make it much quicker and easier. The current process of mandatory attendance at 6 nights is insane.

Snip. No argument with this. As soon as I can swing and hold 9 votes on the BoD, the observation and probationary process are gone.

3. New members should be treated like customers, not 2nd class citizens. I've already mentioned an example with Mike. Another example is I was walking off the range with 20 other new members through the little walkway, I got nudged over because of crowding, (and the cast on my leg) and my foot landed on the painted line. The director, I don't know his name, quipped at me, "If that happens one more time you're out of here!"
You don't talk to people like that, this isn't the army.

Agreed and copied to the BRRC Exec.

4. There is no actual website, get one. I mean I know this whole internet thing is new but c'mon. Please don't answer back that rangerburlington.com is a website, because it's not, it's a forum.

www.rangeburlington.ca is the website, www.rangeburlington.ca\forums are the forum. The front page does need work and its next on my list of things to fix. Sorry its not the content rich multimedia site like some of the others I maintain (see www.sympatico.msn.ca and www.bell.ca for examples) but it serves its purpose. I have a life outside of work, i'd rather shoot than code....

 

[skeetgunner]

These people have all taken the firearms safety course.

Actually Jdman, a lot of them havent. We get a fair number of spouses, "mates" and mature "children of gun owners" that join the club and don't have any government PAL/RPAL or its still in process.

That's a big problem with the club, it is being run by guys who run the various disciplines thusly alienating 95% of the membership. You are aware that the vast majority or members have no interest in shooting a particular discipline. They, like myself, just want to come out and shoot whatever they want at their own pace.

The club is for the disciplines, run by the diciplines. It may have been a plinking club 40 years ago, but certainly the last 20 have been all about the leagues. Demographically, the bulk of our memebership holds a BRRC membership to site in for hunting once a year, or to stay grandfathered for 12.x If the vast majority were actually interested in shoot, the rules would get changed pretty quick.

It's like talking to rock, you're not listening. Regardless of the fact I was pushed, you don't threaten someone, you coach them. Obviously in this case no coaching was necessary, anyone with any intelligence could have seen that.

No, I'm listening and I agree. It is about coaching and mentoring and the feedback will go back to the BoD.

I can't shoot on rifle night because you also need to have a rimfire to shoot rifle night, you are scored on both.

You can shoot three of the 8 targets in the course of fire, and we are usually done by 9:30-9:45pm.

What homework??? Please show me anywhere in club literature where it says I wouldn't be allowed to use the range on weeknights, the most popular and convenient time to shoot.

http://www.rangeburlington.ca/page2.html and see hours of operation. Admittedly, its a bit obscure and its on my list of things to fix.

 

[euxx]

It's like talking to rock, you're not listening. Regardless of the fact I was pushed, you don't threaten someone, you coach them. Obviously in this case no coaching was necessary, anyone with any intelligence could have seen that. If you stress that easily, I'd suggest another pass time, shooting doesn't seem to be working for you.

Would you stop crying like a baby, admit that it was your fault and move on.

I can't shoot on rifle night because you also need to have a rimfire to shoot rifle night, you are scored on both.

You can actually shoot the center-fire only targets, but for a difference in the annual fee between BRRC and Target Sports (which you said you are ready to pay) you can get yourself a decent .22 rifle

What homework??? Please show me anywhere in club literature where it says I wouldn't be allowed to use the range on weeknights, the most popular and convenient time to shoot. This fact wasn't told to our safety course until after we paid for and took the course. How many members does BRRC have? 1400? How many members shoot in the sections? Maybe 10-12 each night? So basically 1300 members can't shoot in prime time so that the directors and their friends totaling maybe 75-100 people can monopolize the range every single weeknight until 10 or 11pm. If you fail to see the blatantly obvious lack of logic in that, I certainly hope you don't earn a living in a business management position. Here endeth the lesson.

Here is the club calendar for you, which has all the reserved time marked. http://www.rangeburlington.ca/forums/calendar.php

Now think about it. You said that you want to shoot ipsc, so there need to be a dedicated time on the range while other people won't be able to shoot anything else. If I follow your logic, we should cancel the ipsc night (which is actually the longest one) and let everyone use that "convenient time" for their own pleasure. I doubt you'd want that, but then how is ipsc shooters are better then any other shooters?

For the record, I usually shoot 3 week day nights, including ipsc. By the way, you don't even have to be a club member to shoot ipsc night, you just need to have a clib att, walk in, pay the 5$ non-member fee and join the next squad.

 

[robertf]

I would guess the "two friends" spoken of do not exist. If they had why would you have joined? and I am sure they would have complained.

Nice, now your calling me a liar, good job. They're first names are Kiran and David, I'll gladly send you a PM with their full name as soon as you apologize publicly. I won't hold my breath.

Speak for your self and stop pulling number out of your ass.

This isn't rocket science, it's not even Grade 4 math. Is that why you're having problems with it? If you sit still and take your Ritalin I will explain it in terms maybe even you can understand... If a shooting club has 1400 members, but there are only 12 (or is it 10?) ports to shoot from, how many people can't shoot.

Read up a bit you can shoot rimfire at both or centerfire at both if that is all you have.

Here is the reading I've done.
"We practice marksmanship in a mildly competitive environment; where the focus is on fun and skills, not scores.

Equipment
The equipment requirements for the Wednesday rifle nights are very simple. To complete the standard course of fire you will need a rimfire rifle and 50 rounds of ammunition plus a centrefire rifle and 25 rounds of ammunition for that. Competitors may use any centre-fire rifle of any center-fire caliber AND any rim-fire rifle of any rim-fire caliber. There are no caliber, bullet weight/construction or rifle-action restrictions(you may use single-shot, pump, lever, bolt or semi-automatic rifles) New shooters that don’t have a centrefire rifle can opt to shoot the entire course using a rimfire rifle, using 75 rounds of rimfire ammunition."
I'm aware of your math skills, it seems your English skills are equally remedial. Looks like summer school for you again Corky.

Perhaps you should find a new hobby as well. And how old are you? calling out "HE PUSHED ME" seams very mature. Sorry your feelings were hurt when the big bad safety man yelled at you, but he was trying to inculcate a big safety rule. Maybe instead of arguing about it you could have just said " yes, sorry wont happen again"

LOL, that is quite funny. Not only did you misquote me, but you clearly just don't get it. I guess that goes back to the English comprehension problem. I'm 43, I have degrees in Psychology and Sociology, and I'm President and CEO of a Television Channel with many employees. I am immensely qualified to determine what is appropriate behaviour and I'd be happy to provide you with tutoring.

 

[Paulinski]

This isn't rocket science, it's not even Grade 4 math. Is that why you're having problems with it? If you sit still and take your Ritalin I will explain it in terms maybe even you can understand... If a shooting club has 1400 members, but there are only 12 (or is it 10?) ports to shoot from, how many people can't shoot.

I dunno last time all 1400 members arrived to shot at the same time was.....

 

[robertf]

I dunno last time all 1400 members arrived to shot at the same time was.....

Exactly my point. 1300 members cannot shoot during prime time hours unless they want to shoot a discipline. I'm not saying not to have nights set aside for them, just not every single weeknight of the year. Unless of course your goal is to have 1300 members pay for a club that only 100 will use during prime time, in that case well done.

 

[Paulinski]

I don't understand your problem?

I have been shooting there 6 months since I joined. Every time I showed up I had a port hell there were times that the club was completely empty.

Simple if you don't like it don't join. Find another club. I like BRRC.

 

[darkshadow]

Good job on ignoring every counter point and just arguing for the sake of hearing your key board click.Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

And since you are offering tutoring try reading the post and quoting the proper person before you call them out.