It's not so much that these calibers need special powders as a case of they don't get the same powders as we do. We can go into a gunstore and see 5 brands and 100 types. They will see Somchem and a few cans. The .458 has a long history of problems with factory loads, and hunters have long memories. Back in the day, Winchester had rounds so heavily compressed the powder cemented with age and turned to squibs.Other loads didn't even approach advertised velocities. The Remington once had problems with pressure in factory loads, to match the Rigby. The Weatherbys are a two part problem, high pressure and Weatherby owners. Those stereotypes are firmly established, and whether still true or not aren't going away.
Africa/Alaska Dangerous Game Cartridge - Make Your Case!
- Thread starter X-man
- Start date
It's not so much that these calibers need special powders as a case of they don't get the same powders as we do. We can go into a gunstore and see 5 brands and 100 types. They will see Somchem and a few cans. The .458 has a long history of problems with factory loads, and hunters have long memories. Back in the day, Winchester had rounds so heavily compressed the powder cemented with age and turned to squibs.Other loads didn't even approach advertised velocities. The Remington once had problems with pressure in factory loads, to match the Rigby. The Weatherbys are a two part problem, high pressure and Weatherby owners. Those stereotypes are firmly established, and whether still true or not aren't going away.
Dangerous Game rifle means relatively close to very close ranges.
Myself, I would use a .470 NE double rifle. Relatively easy to control compared to the larger NE doubles and still a very hard hitting round. Even with 22-24 inchbbls, the actionmakes for a more compact rifle compared to a bolt action. Also, ability to find ammo overseas is likely.
In a bolt rifle - I would lean to a .458 Lott with a 22 inch bbl. The Lott ammo is popular in many places and in a pinch you may use 458 win mag which is a very good round as well.
Absolutely nothing wrong with a 375 or 416 (I love the Rigby as a second rifle in Africa), but if I wanted just one rifle to bet on - I would go to a larger caliber rather then smaller.
And, unless I knew the fellow personally - I would not bet my life on any PH saving me if it comes down to it. I really hope he does, but he is human and falible as well and PH's come in a wide variety of competance.
Whatever rifle you choose - make sure when you raise it to fire - it is EXACTLY pointing where you expect it to hit. Beyond anything - spend the time and money to fit the rifle to you. Especially wearing what you expect to wear in clothing. No parkas like we are used to here in Canada, ...likely shirt sleeves, maybe a light jacket.
Then of course - practice, practice, practice. And not from any bench - maybe from shooting sticks for those shots at a standing critter, but definitely practice freehand shots. Both at fixed and moving targets. Shooting at a tire rolling towards you is always fun.
Myself, I would use a .470 NE double rifle. Relatively easy to control compared to the larger NE doubles and still a very hard hitting round. Even with 22-24 inchbbls, the actionmakes for a more compact rifle compared to a bolt action. Also, ability to find ammo overseas is likely.
In a bolt rifle - I would lean to a .458 Lott with a 22 inch bbl. The Lott ammo is popular in many places and in a pinch you may use 458 win mag which is a very good round as well.
Absolutely nothing wrong with a 375 or 416 (I love the Rigby as a second rifle in Africa), but if I wanted just one rifle to bet on - I would go to a larger caliber rather then smaller.
And, unless I knew the fellow personally - I would not bet my life on any PH saving me if it comes down to it. I really hope he does, but he is human and falible as well and PH's come in a wide variety of competance.
Whatever rifle you choose - make sure when you raise it to fire - it is EXACTLY pointing where you expect it to hit. Beyond anything - spend the time and money to fit the rifle to you. Especially wearing what you expect to wear in clothing. No parkas like we are used to here in Canada, ...likely shirt sleeves, maybe a light jacket.
Then of course - practice, practice, practice. And not from any bench - maybe from shooting sticks for those shots at a standing critter, but definitely practice freehand shots. Both at fixed and moving targets. Shooting at a tire rolling towards you is always fun.
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
It's not an experience or a hunt that I'm likely to get the chance for, unless I get the opportunity to do my 649 Happy Dance.
. While I realise it would be difficult to beat the versatility of say the 375 H&H, considering what I have available in my gun safe, my choice would be the 458WM. Another consideration if conditions were really 'up close and personal' would be the Marlin 1895GS in 45-70. There may be time for two shots and I think I could likely work a lever gun faster than a bolt action. Ideally, and if I was lucky enough to have one, a double rifle primarily for a quick follow up 2nd shot, and probably in something around 458WM.
. While I realise it would be difficult to beat the versatility of say the 375 H&H, considering what I have available in my gun safe, my choice would be the 458WM. Another consideration if conditions were really 'up close and personal' would be the Marlin 1895GS in 45-70. There may be time for two shots and I think I could likely work a lever gun faster than a bolt action. Ideally, and if I was lucky enough to have one, a double rifle primarily for a quick follow up 2nd shot, and probably in something around 458WM.
I've always wanted a genuine "dangerous game" rifle ever since reading the works of Robert Ruark, Gene Hill, Ernest Hemingway, et al...
Since a double rifle is basically out of reach financially unless I win the 6/49 lottery or sell off a crap load of guns, a bolt rifle is probably going to be my first choice. I have a friend who owns a Ruger #1 in .458 Win Mag, and while a beautiful rifle, I'm not a fan of single rifles.
Looking right now at the CZ 550, probably as an Xmas present or having a custom rifle built on a 700 action. In either case, I love the look and stability of laminate stocks over synthetic/traditional walnut stocks.
I haven't really wedded myself to any particular caliber as yet. I'll probably use the rifle on big moose, bears moreso than African game for the immediate future, but an African Safari is on the want to do list.
Here are your choices: 375 H&H, .416 Rigby, .458 Win Mag, .458 Lott, .404 Jeffery, .450 Rigby, .500 Jeffery and the .505 Gibbs.
I'm sticking with these traditional calibers. Not interested in any obscure, obsolete, wildcat chambering, so please keep the discussion on these!
I have a CZ550 Magnum in 458 win mag ! out of all those calibers only the 375 h and h is cheaper to buy ( ammo cost) nice big bullet , reasonable recoil considering the size of the caliber, over all nice rifle , not a single shot , I can't say much negative about it. It's a good all around african dangerous/biggame cartridge, and with smaller grain bullets good for some N.A. Biggame as well
IMHO
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How far do you want to shoot, and how versatile do you want the rifle to be?
If it's a dedicated "short range stopping" rifle, get one of the big cartridges. If you want versatility and practicality for ammo/components, the 375 H&H is the answer.
If it's a dedicated "short range stopping" rifle, get one of the big cartridges. If you want versatility and practicality for ammo/components, the 375 H&H is the answer.
- Location
- Hillbilly shack in the boonies
Well on that note, if your gonna hold out for a charge, a sxs 10 guage chopped @ 19 inches , with a bed liner stock , huge sights , for looks , as you won't want to use 'em anyway. the rush would be so great , like shooting a 22
the rush would be so great , like shooting a 22
Well on that note, if your gonna hold out for a charge, a sxs 10 guage chopped @ 19 inches , with a bed liner stock , huge sights , for looks , as you won't want to use 'em anyway.
huh ? you want to shoot it AND butcher it all in one ????
WHAT!! ...... no mention of the King?
.
The New King would be the best choice, of course...But sadly, the poor misguided fool didn't list it.....
Anyone ever read this one? It answers alot of questions. 458 win mag all the way. And I say that 'cause I can buy factory loads in town. It's unfortunate that no one is voting for most of the popular cartridges that they use overseas (Gibbs, Jefferys,Lott, etc)
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Republic of Alberta
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- ,location, location
There are 700 nitros, some in bolt action form and others in doubles. Seems to me at least, that most who have owned the 700 found it to be too much of a good thing. Plus the rifle must be ridiculous heavy.
If it were me I would choose my 375 H&H over my 416 just because I prefer that particular rifle. Much lighter and usable than the Rigby. Don't get me wrong, I like the 416 Rigby. I even named my dog Rigby....
Besides, the chambering would be one of the last of my concerns and a good bullet would be one of my first.
Since you mentioned Rem700 as an option I would have a look at the 416 Ultra.
I am currently gathering the components to make this little project come together.
The 416 is the largest bore that can provide serious killing power, along with reasonable stopping power, yet at the same time produce flat enough trajectories for any reasonable hunting shot. The 416 does all this without producing excessive accuracy defeating recoil.
Putting a 416 in a Remington gives most of us immediate familiarity...Something often overlooked in a dangerous game rifle.
The 416 Ultra matches the 30-06 in trajectory (at modest pressures) and is very similar to the 458 in stopping ability...Great flexibility....What more can I say?
The Rigby does the same thing albeit in a heavier, bulkier action that I believe is less fitting most North American hunting.
I am currently gathering the components to make this little project come together.
The 416 is the largest bore that can provide serious killing power, along with reasonable stopping power, yet at the same time produce flat enough trajectories for any reasonable hunting shot. The 416 does all this without producing excessive accuracy defeating recoil.
Putting a 416 in a Remington gives most of us immediate familiarity...Something often overlooked in a dangerous game rifle.
The 416 Ultra matches the 30-06 in trajectory (at modest pressures) and is very similar to the 458 in stopping ability...Great flexibility....What more can I say?
The Rigby does the same thing albeit in a heavier, bulkier action that I believe is less fitting most North American hunting.
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
Since we're talking about "Dangerous Game" we should define that. Starting small and going big...
Leopard
Lion
Grizzly Bear
Cape Buffalo
Rhino (Black or White)
Elephant
The argument for a "do-it-all" rifle is different than for a specialized rifle. The 450 Rigby is the ultimate African DG rifle, but it is not a do-all rifle. The 416 Rigby, on the other hand, is the ultimate do-all DG rifle.
416 bullets run the gamut in weights however the only important ones for Dangerous game are 400 grain softs and solids, though the available weights range from 300 to 450.
The 416 Rigby drives a 400 grain bullet at approximately 2400 FPS. However, that velocity is achieved at a lower pressure due to the massive case and can be increased to a nearly unmanageable level if so desired. 400 grain bullets can be driven at increased speed but the value in that practice is questionable. Standard pressure loads in a 416 Rigby deliver what is generally considered to be the maximum manageable recoil for most shooters in a sensibly weighted rifle. 10 lbs in plenty of rifle weight for a 416 Rigby whereas rifle such as the 458 Lott and larger need more weight, particularly the "500" class of rifles. The selection of butter soft to dead tough bullets for the 416 makes it attractive to those wishing to tailor their loads to the beast sought. Or one could simply load up 400 grain Swift or TSX and feel confident in picking a fight with any beast walking the earth, with the exception of pachyderms which require the use of solid bullets for adequate penetration.
The 458 Lott will realistically give you 2200 fps with a 500 grain bullet, the 458 Winchester 2150 and the 450 Rigby 2450 with the same projectile. The sectional density of the 500 grain .458" bullet is .341 versus .330 for the 400 gr .416". The 300 gr .375" can be driven at 2500 FPS and it's SD lags slightly at .305. All these are ahead of the 525 gr .504" (Gibbs) at .294 and 570 .510" (Jeffrey) both having a SD of .314. The Jeffrey drives it's 570 gr bullet at 2350 FPS and the Gibbs drives it's 525 gr at 2350. The 400 gr .422 (404 Jeffrey) also trails slightly at .321 SD and can be driven at 2300 FPS. There has been talk among knowledgeable writers that .300 is a sensible cut off in SD for dangerous game, though there are always contrarians who will argue that bullet construction is more important than sectional density. They're not wrong, but assuming the use of actually available bullets and not fantasy bullets (ie a 500 grain .458" Blitz-King) and proper construction, sectional density becomes a valuable predictor of bullet performance on game.
Given a 9 lb 375 H&H and 458 Winchester, 10 LB 404 Jeffrey, 416 Rigby, 458 Lott and 450 Rigby and an 11 lb 505 Gibbs and 500 Jeffrey we'll look at the calculated recoil numbers.
375 H&H - 43 ft-lb
404 Jeff - 47 ft-lb
416 Rigby - 61 ft-lb
458 Win - 64 ft-lb
458 Lott - 64 ft-lb
450 Rigby - 90 ft-lb
505 Gibbs - 101 ft-lb
500 Jeff - 92 ft-lb
The 375 H&H and 404 Jeffrey recoil a marginal amount less and the 458 Winchester and Lott recoil a pinch more. The 450 Rigby and the 500s are in a whole different class. Consider them post-graduate recoil to the lighter caliber's undergrad kick. Granted stock design can change the felt recoil as can recoil velocity (the push versus punch argument). At 90 foot pounds, does it really matter what kind of hit you get? It's still going to smart. I can testify to the fact that from a sitting, bench-rested position, most people will struggle to get more than a dozed 416 Rigbys out in a single sitting, though there are he-men that can (or claim) to have no problem with the recoil. I wonder about their group sizes though.
Too, the 400 grain bullets range in their construction from A Square's Lion load, which expands violently to be effective on thin-skinned animals like lion and leopard, up to ultra tough softpoints like the Barnes TSX and Swift A Frame, right on through to monometal solids from Barnes and conventional solids from Woodleigh, Hornady and Nosler. These solids have the necessary construction to fully penetrate the skull of the african elephant and deliver a killing blow to the brain, or to penetrate on bad-angle backup shots on cape buffalo. While larger rifles accomplish the same feat, they do so with more recoil and more rifle weight. For the average client or hunter the 458 Lott, 450 Rigby, 500 Jeffrey and 505 Gibbs are more rifle than you will want or need.
The 458 Winchester is a dandy hunting rifle for the client for dangerous game and given a choice of rifles to hunt grizzly with in BC or Alaska I would probably choose a 458 Winchester with a 21" barrel or a similarly equipped 375 H&H. You can find ammunition for either at nearly any sporting goods store and the rifles and ammunition are generally quite reasonable in price. Were I independently wealthy and hunting elephant every year or two I'd spoil myself with the 505 Gibbs, but the inability to import rifles or components for either of the 500s from the US makes them less desireable. Apologies to Tony Sanchez-Arino, but I am not a 500 Jeffrey fan. I distrust rebated rims and would rather deal with the massive Gibbs case in a Mauser action than what I consider to be a slightly dodgy setup. There's a reason that the Jeffrey, though more powerful than the Gibbs, is and was less popular. The Gibbs has all the power necessary in a bolt rifle to stop even the most determined charge. If I wanted something a little more obscure to shoot buffalo and elephant with, the 450 Rigby would be my first choice as it drives the 458 caliber bullet at the a monstrous speed at a low pressure and will handle any hunting situation. Truth be told, it might actually be preferable to the Gibbs in my mind due to the smaller size and resultant increase in magazine capacity. Again, ammunition can be hard to find and, as the Old Man says, "they're not giving it away". The 404 Jeffrey was the real workhorse of the early 20th Century African bush. They were cheap and effective and killed a lot of buffalo in fly areas and piled up many elephant on control. That said, factory ammunition is not plentiful nor cheap and these criteria should always be on the mind of the traveling sportsman.
Now, my darling 416 Rigby is, like any other, not without flaws. She is wide in the case which limits your magazine capacity in most rifles to three or 4 in drop box magazines. Those same mags accommodate 5 rounds in rifles chambered in the 458's or 375 H&H. Some people will tell you that magazine capacity is not important. I submit to you that having more ammo, in any situation, is preferable than having less and anyone stating differently is either a fool or a contrarian. She also kicks harder than others which can make practice sessions less fun. This can be avoided by practicing from field positions, standing, kneeling or off sticks. Not prone though. Not unless you're a serious masochist. Perhaps the worst criticism leveled at the 416 Rigby is the price of factory ammunition. A heroin habit could be easier to support than a box a day Rigby habit. Factory ammo can run as much as $200 in my experience and I have heard of $300 a box ammo. Those prices are highway robbery though I believe that Hornady's new factory ammo loaded with the new DGX/DGS bullets are running a more reasonable, though still pricey, $100-odd a box. These costs can be obviated by taking up handloading and shooting light bullets like the 350 Speer Mag Tip for practice. That said, safari rifles are not a cheap hobby nor is safari hunting. Ammunition is expensive and won't likely go down in price anytime soon.
So there you have it, the argument for the 416 Rigby as the ideal all-around African and North American dangerous game rifle. It gives you as much power as you need with as much recoil as you can take in a low pressure cartridge with bullets with the proper performance characteristics to ensure they will perform on game - if you put them where they need to be.
Leopard
Lion
Grizzly Bear
Cape Buffalo
Rhino (Black or White)
Elephant
The argument for a "do-it-all" rifle is different than for a specialized rifle. The 450 Rigby is the ultimate African DG rifle, but it is not a do-all rifle. The 416 Rigby, on the other hand, is the ultimate do-all DG rifle.
416 bullets run the gamut in weights however the only important ones for Dangerous game are 400 grain softs and solids, though the available weights range from 300 to 450.
The 416 Rigby drives a 400 grain bullet at approximately 2400 FPS. However, that velocity is achieved at a lower pressure due to the massive case and can be increased to a nearly unmanageable level if so desired. 400 grain bullets can be driven at increased speed but the value in that practice is questionable. Standard pressure loads in a 416 Rigby deliver what is generally considered to be the maximum manageable recoil for most shooters in a sensibly weighted rifle. 10 lbs in plenty of rifle weight for a 416 Rigby whereas rifle such as the 458 Lott and larger need more weight, particularly the "500" class of rifles. The selection of butter soft to dead tough bullets for the 416 makes it attractive to those wishing to tailor their loads to the beast sought. Or one could simply load up 400 grain Swift or TSX and feel confident in picking a fight with any beast walking the earth, with the exception of pachyderms which require the use of solid bullets for adequate penetration.
The 458 Lott will realistically give you 2200 fps with a 500 grain bullet, the 458 Winchester 2150 and the 450 Rigby 2450 with the same projectile. The sectional density of the 500 grain .458" bullet is .341 versus .330 for the 400 gr .416". The 300 gr .375" can be driven at 2500 FPS and it's SD lags slightly at .305. All these are ahead of the 525 gr .504" (Gibbs) at .294 and 570 .510" (Jeffrey) both having a SD of .314. The Jeffrey drives it's 570 gr bullet at 2350 FPS and the Gibbs drives it's 525 gr at 2350. The 400 gr .422 (404 Jeffrey) also trails slightly at .321 SD and can be driven at 2300 FPS. There has been talk among knowledgeable writers that .300 is a sensible cut off in SD for dangerous game, though there are always contrarians who will argue that bullet construction is more important than sectional density. They're not wrong, but assuming the use of actually available bullets and not fantasy bullets (ie a 500 grain .458" Blitz-King) and proper construction, sectional density becomes a valuable predictor of bullet performance on game.
Given a 9 lb 375 H&H and 458 Winchester, 10 LB 404 Jeffrey, 416 Rigby, 458 Lott and 450 Rigby and an 11 lb 505 Gibbs and 500 Jeffrey we'll look at the calculated recoil numbers.
375 H&H - 43 ft-lb
404 Jeff - 47 ft-lb
416 Rigby - 61 ft-lb
458 Win - 64 ft-lb
458 Lott - 64 ft-lb
450 Rigby - 90 ft-lb
505 Gibbs - 101 ft-lb
500 Jeff - 92 ft-lb
The 375 H&H and 404 Jeffrey recoil a marginal amount less and the 458 Winchester and Lott recoil a pinch more. The 450 Rigby and the 500s are in a whole different class. Consider them post-graduate recoil to the lighter caliber's undergrad kick. Granted stock design can change the felt recoil as can recoil velocity (the push versus punch argument). At 90 foot pounds, does it really matter what kind of hit you get? It's still going to smart. I can testify to the fact that from a sitting, bench-rested position, most people will struggle to get more than a dozed 416 Rigbys out in a single sitting, though there are he-men that can (or claim) to have no problem with the recoil. I wonder about their group sizes though.
Too, the 400 grain bullets range in their construction from A Square's Lion load, which expands violently to be effective on thin-skinned animals like lion and leopard, up to ultra tough softpoints like the Barnes TSX and Swift A Frame, right on through to monometal solids from Barnes and conventional solids from Woodleigh, Hornady and Nosler. These solids have the necessary construction to fully penetrate the skull of the african elephant and deliver a killing blow to the brain, or to penetrate on bad-angle backup shots on cape buffalo. While larger rifles accomplish the same feat, they do so with more recoil and more rifle weight. For the average client or hunter the 458 Lott, 450 Rigby, 500 Jeffrey and 505 Gibbs are more rifle than you will want or need.
The 458 Winchester is a dandy hunting rifle for the client for dangerous game and given a choice of rifles to hunt grizzly with in BC or Alaska I would probably choose a 458 Winchester with a 21" barrel or a similarly equipped 375 H&H. You can find ammunition for either at nearly any sporting goods store and the rifles and ammunition are generally quite reasonable in price. Were I independently wealthy and hunting elephant every year or two I'd spoil myself with the 505 Gibbs, but the inability to import rifles or components for either of the 500s from the US makes them less desireable. Apologies to Tony Sanchez-Arino, but I am not a 500 Jeffrey fan. I distrust rebated rims and would rather deal with the massive Gibbs case in a Mauser action than what I consider to be a slightly dodgy setup. There's a reason that the Jeffrey, though more powerful than the Gibbs, is and was less popular. The Gibbs has all the power necessary in a bolt rifle to stop even the most determined charge. If I wanted something a little more obscure to shoot buffalo and elephant with, the 450 Rigby would be my first choice as it drives the 458 caliber bullet at the a monstrous speed at a low pressure and will handle any hunting situation. Truth be told, it might actually be preferable to the Gibbs in my mind due to the smaller size and resultant increase in magazine capacity. Again, ammunition can be hard to find and, as the Old Man says, "they're not giving it away". The 404 Jeffrey was the real workhorse of the early 20th Century African bush. They were cheap and effective and killed a lot of buffalo in fly areas and piled up many elephant on control. That said, factory ammunition is not plentiful nor cheap and these criteria should always be on the mind of the traveling sportsman.
Now, my darling 416 Rigby is, like any other, not without flaws. She is wide in the case which limits your magazine capacity in most rifles to three or 4 in drop box magazines. Those same mags accommodate 5 rounds in rifles chambered in the 458's or 375 H&H. Some people will tell you that magazine capacity is not important. I submit to you that having more ammo, in any situation, is preferable than having less and anyone stating differently is either a fool or a contrarian. She also kicks harder than others which can make practice sessions less fun. This can be avoided by practicing from field positions, standing, kneeling or off sticks. Not prone though. Not unless you're a serious masochist. Perhaps the worst criticism leveled at the 416 Rigby is the price of factory ammunition. A heroin habit could be easier to support than a box a day Rigby habit. Factory ammo can run as much as $200 in my experience and I have heard of $300 a box ammo. Those prices are highway robbery though I believe that Hornady's new factory ammo loaded with the new DGX/DGS bullets are running a more reasonable, though still pricey, $100-odd a box. These costs can be obviated by taking up handloading and shooting light bullets like the 350 Speer Mag Tip for practice. That said, safari rifles are not a cheap hobby nor is safari hunting. Ammunition is expensive and won't likely go down in price anytime soon.
So there you have it, the argument for the 416 Rigby as the ideal all-around African and North American dangerous game rifle. It gives you as much power as you need with as much recoil as you can take in a low pressure cartridge with bullets with the proper performance characteristics to ensure they will perform on game - if you put them where they need to be.
