Antique Bear Handgun

I think rather than any antique hand gun I would prefer a backpacker 12 gauge with 3" slugs but anything is better than nothing even if its only value is comfort .but an antique hand gun may give you a faulse sence of security. Out here on the Prarie I carry mine to fend of rabbid Gophers they are far more dangerous than they appear.:p
 
mooncoon said:
I believe I mentioned that the wood was cedar and is one of the softest woods here in BC. A 22 longrifle would go at least 1 - 2" into the wood (fir) that stopped the 32 and I firmly believe that a 38 S&W would be about the same ie only penetrate about 1/2 a bullet length into the wood

cheers mooncoon
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Ok i missed that!
was it Red ceader or Yellow :p

My 45 schofield loads will shoot right thru a chunk 6 inch fir tree at 25 yds with my 2400 loads so id should try some ceader tests.

Anyway i can do some tests on wood and can garentee there will be penetration with the 455 or 45 and 44 caliber rounds.
I will see how deep the bullets go.

I just remembered something at the range where i target shoot theres a big old dead tree not rotten but not alive, like firewwood i nailed targets to it.
Anyway all my 44 Caliber Antique shooting i could not get even one slug out that Trunk they all went in that Deep and i tryed to dig in that trunk with a knife.
Only bullets i retreived were a bunch of very lightly loaded 455 slugs.
But all the 44 SP and 44 Russian stuff musta gone in 4 to 6 inchs easy.

This is at 20 Yds to not point blank.
 
mooncoon said:
Most or all of the antique handguns are in pretty anemic cartridges and while most would kill a bear if you shot it in the side of the head at point blank range, they are also of extremely dubious value in a true defensive situation. If the risk of a bear attack is all that great, you would be far better off with a relatively short light rifle such as a 30-30.

cheers mooncoon
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I have seen black bears shot with surprisingly anemic calibers. Although, typically the first shot did not kill but it certainly made them pause. It often did not take much more than a single follow up shot to complete the deed. Again much better than a stick or water bottle.
 
Wow the science of coastal rain forest ballistic medium hard to believe it is not industry standard. Think we can ship hemlock to america import duty free if it is for terminal ballistics and not traditional soft wood usage?

As dingus mentioned Mr Kieth pretty much answers all these questions. First off he threw a cheap 32 into a coolie after it bounced a slug off a cactus and sprayed metal around. No arguments that a 32 anything over a 100 years old is not a bear defence round.

What mooncoon is failing to acknowledge is the work and reports of those on this board who (some have proffessional engineering qualifications) have devleloped loads using modern slow powders and quality components. Just because fiocchi can't make a decent round does'nt mean it is not possible. The other point being missed is the HUGE range of quality and capability of Antique arms. You buy junk it will serve you like junk.

As to the terminal performance of a 44 or 45. Well mr Kieth conducted terminal ballistic tests on behalf of the NRA. IIRC his findings put his 45 load 3rd after the 160 grain 6.5 and 500 grain 45-70 for penetration. Take a look at 4th , 5th , 6th place and you'll be surprised.

I am a very conservative hand loader and have had a few chances to try pushing my concoctions through various hunks of pre-dead mammal. At well under 800 FPS I can assure you that a .454 slug will travel further and leave a better wound channel/ break more bone then the paper ballistics would indicate. The bottom line is that a hard, slow, heavy, kieth style bullet will travel very far through the medium it was designed to penetrate.

A few evenings reading alaskan bear tales vol1 and vol2 will give you an idea of how quick a hike/hunt/trip to the outhouse turns into a mauling. If you are disciplined
enough to keep your 870 or SMLE in hand, Always, then that is great and preferable but it generally takes many thousands of hours of bush time to run into an even mildly threatening animal and by that time I almost guarentee your long arm will be spending more time not in you hand. (Revolvers are heavy and bothersome as well)

The GRC support this line of thinking and that is why they issue Wildernaess carry permits to those that need to be in the bush. Rifles are 3 feet long wiegh 8 lbs and have a hundred ways to tangle themselves. They are also not much use after a bear has stripped the flesh from the arm you used to keep him from your head. Bears love to wound and back off.


Should you educate yourself so as to avoid bear encounters? YES. Should you do everyhthing in your power (short of becoming a meal)to preserve a bears life? YES Should you carry a long arm in the wilderness? YES. Should you carry Bear spray? Yes.

If you can afford it and have the smarts to not hurt yourself in the loading and carrying should you pack a 44 special, 45 schofield just in case? That is up to the individual to decide but percieved ineffectiveness is no excuse to decide against it.

P.S the brits did not retire the 455 because it would'nt stop an enraged, charging 220 pound man, wearing 4 layers of wool and webbing.................. They retired it because it was too much gun.
 
david doyle said:
P.S the brits did not retire the 455 because it would'nt stop an enraged, charging 220 pound man, wearing 4 layers of wool and webbing.................. They retired it because it was too much gun.
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Good point. I'm thinking if I snap 6 quick ones out of the WG into a bears head neck area he's all of a sudden got other things to worry about. If I'm still on the menu I probably bought a second or two to bow out graciously
 
"...bought a second or two to bow out graciously..." It all depends on how close Yogi is to you. You will never be able to move as fast as Yogi. Even if he's wounded.
 
Great Post David!

If ya read the entire book SIX GUNS old Elmer talks about old timers who would sit in a tree right over a bait and when the bear even Griz came up to the bait POP right thru the top back of the skull or spine shot.

With what you ask?? A old 1860s 44 Caliber percussion revover with a .454 dia Rd ball and full BP load.

Now im not saying id want to try it but even percusson revolvers did there jobs and a 44 caliber soft lead rd ball is not something to get shot with.

Keith says our great grandfathers were not as bad off as we today might think. I think thats true.

If Bears are as fast as Sunrays saying (im sure hes right ) then a revolvers gona do ya more good if somethings ontop of you than a long Rifle.

Alot of Ranchers carry handguns on there belts on horse back cause Horses spoke easy from even the smell of a bear and throw you off takeing your rifle with him.
Alot of guys i know that Ride horses in the bush have bought antique revolvers for just that reason.
 
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I'm thinking if I snap 6 quick ones out of the WG into a bears head neck area he's all of a sudden got other things to worry about. If I'm still on the menu I probably bought a second or two to bow out graciously
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Yep that would be a full 1/4 pound of lead! Even if he is still wandering around swatting at the "stumps" of 455 slugs jutting out of his hide a speed loader with 6 rounds will have that WG back in action in the couple seconds you bought yourself.
 
You can strap your antique pistol anywhere you want, so long as it's not concealed and you are in a location where you can legally use a non-restricted firearm.

With regard to the punch behind some of these antique cartridges, I have chunk of dried Ashleaf Maple out in the backyard that I use as a backstop. The 44 Russian using a 256 grain Keith cast bullet at about 770 fps consistently sinks those bullets 6 to 8" into solid wood.

A little over a year ago, I loaded up a 45 Schofield to various velocities and fired the 250 grain bullets into a green Ashleaf Maple stump. A green Ashleaf Maple stump is a lot harder to push bullets through than a dried one. Here is what I got with the cast 250 grain bullet ......

298 fps .... 1/4" penetration
405 fps .... 5/8" penetration
536 fps .... 1 & 1/8" penetration
615 fps .... too deep to shove my depth indicator down (the grain wood mulch tends to close back in to fill the bullet channel)
My normal Schofield load had a velocity of 791 fps and upon taking the stump apart, they seemed to penetrate around 6" into solid, green Ashleaf Maple. To give you an idea of how hard it is to shove a cast bullet through that green Ashleaf Maple, my 38-55 would penetrate about 8" into it, but I put the same load right through a Whitetail Deer at 75 yards, side to side. The bottom line is that a 44 Russian or a 45 Schofield is a fight stopper and if there was a bear or Cougar close enough to be giving me a problem, I don't see why I couldn't send a slug or two through it's brain case.

With regard to prefering a rifle or shotgun, well yes, a rifle or shotgun is more powerful, but when I take my family out into remote Crown land for a week of wilderness canoeing and camping, I need both hands free for whatever it is I'm doing. Try carrying a rifle around all day long while you are portaging, or fishing and you'll soon see the advantage of an antique sixgun strapped to your hip. Also, if you ever have a Cougar or bear on top of you, a pistol is a whole lot more maneuverable. Try laying on your back with someone on top of you and just imagine what it might be like to try and get the muzzle of your rifle worked around to poke into the animal, while keeping your hand on the action ...... not easy, and if you are being ripped up, it can be quite a trick. A pistol, on the other hand, can just be shoved into the beast's mouth and you can start pumping rounds into that maw, or into the side of its head. Try doing that with a rifle while it is on top of you and then the advantage of a pistol becomes crystal clear.
 
My normal Schofield load had a velocity of 791 fps and upon taking the stump apart, they seemed to penetrate around 6" into solid, green Ashleaf Maple.
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Odd that I get the same results with the load that you developed LOL. Thanks for all the edumacating you have done on here with regards to safe loading of this great cartridge. Your original report is printed and folded under my schofield.
 
Something fishy here. Why you can carry antique on the hip, but must transport it as restricted?
I think, it could be difficult to explain it to police?
 
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Great info there Win 38 55!
you have done alot with the slower smokeless powders more than anyone i know.
This just goes to show that my target shooting the other day in my antique Remy 1875 pushing them 250 Gr keth bullets at about 800 FPS would be Enough.
Now that gun can handle a site more than them veloictys with a 2400 powder charge but do i really need it.
800 to 850 Fps with a 250 gr SWC sized .454 should do just fine.

Also something to think about a reason some horseman or cowboys in the late 1800s prefered the 45 schofield over the 45 colt is Recoil.

Now with my 2400 Full smokeless loads my barrel is at 11 oclock after each shot.
it takes time to lower the gun and re aim the more recoil the less accurate shootin your gona do fast!
Just makes sence.
I much prefer shooting 800 to 850 FPS i can do that all day and them keith SWC are a great bullet.
 
Sig_1959 said:
Something fishy here. Why you can carry antique on the hip, but must transport it as restricted?
I think, you it could be difficult to explain to police?
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No, antique pistols do not have the same transport requirements as restricted. With restricted firearms, they must have both a trigger lock and be in a locked container. With antique pistols, no trigger lock is required but they must still be in a locked container. Walking around in the bush target shooting is not 'transporting' anymore than walking around in the bush hunting deer with your 30-30 is 'transporting' your non-restricted firearm. 'Transporting' as used in the sections of the law dealing with firearms, refers to moving them from place to place in a vehicle. I don't know if a hand-paddled canoe qualifies as a vehicle, but I do put my antique handgun in a locked case when I am canoeing in the wilderness (not that there are any people I'm going to run into anyway, police or otherwise).

The key to explaining things to the police is to know the law. Even better if you have a photocopy of the relevant section that you can produce on the spot. You can scan in your antique letter, then reduce it and print it off, with the relevant law section printed on the back, all on a small piece of paper, which can be folded up and carried nice and compactly. You can also download police information bulletins off the CFC website so you also know what the police have read (if they have read it). The law on antique firearms is up in a sticky on this forum and also available on the CFC website. Another key to explaining things to the police is to be polite (i.e., just because you are right, do not come across like an arrogant know-it-all). Most of the police officers that I know would like to do exactly the same thing (pack an antique sixgun) when they are off duty and in remote areas.
 
h ttp://www.nfa.ca/content/view/150/199/http://www.nfa.ca/content/view/150/199/

Criminal Code section (CC s.) 84(3) says, in part:

For the purposes of (CC) sections 91 to 95, 99 to 101, 103 to 107 and 117.03 of this Act and the provisions of the Firearms Act, the following weapons are deemed not to be firearms:
(a) any antique firearm...
Therefore, no FAC, licence, ATT, ATC, registration certificate, transfer procedure, or documentation is required for any transfer, transportation, or possession of any "antique firearm." Also, as CC s. 84(3) says, nothing in the Firearms Act applies to any "antique firearm."

That also applies to an "antique firearm" that is also a "prohibited firearm" or a "restricted firearm." Yes, that odd pairing can and does happen!




a) any antique firearm [emphasis added throughout]...

Therefore, under the previous legislation, any antique firearm became a "firearm" and a "restricted weapon" or a "prohibited weapon" (if it met the CC s. 84(1) physical characteristic list for such a designation) at the moment the possessor formed an intention to discharge it.

Under the current legislation, "any antique firearm" (including, apparently, a loaded one) is not a "firearm" for the following purposes:

1. Firearms Act: None of the provisions of the Firearms Act, including those requiring registration, licences, ATTs and/or ATCs, apply to any "antique firearm."
2. CC s. 91 and 92: Possession of any "antique firearm" without a licence or registration certificate is legal.
3. CC s. 93: Possession of any "antique firearm" at any location is legal.

4. CC s. 94: Being in a motor vehicle with any "antique firearm" is legal.
5. CC s. 95: Being in possession of a loaded "antique firearm" (which is also a "restricted firearm" or a "prohibited firearm"), or one with readily accessible ammunition is legal even if the person is not the holder of any licence, registration certificate, ATT, or ATC.
6. CC s. 99: Transferring or offering to transfer any "antique firearm" is legal.
7. CC s. 100: Dealing in any type of any "antique firearm" is legal.
8. CC s. 101: Transferring any "antique firearm" is legal if the transfer apparently violates the Firearms Act.
9. CC s. 103 and 104: Importing or exporting any "antique firearm" is legal.
10. CC s. 105: Not reporting the loss or finding of any "antique firearm" is legal.
11. CC s. 106 and 107: Not reporting the destruction of any "antique firearm" is legal, and knowingly making a false report of that type to a firearms official or the police is legal.
12. CC s. 117.03: A peace officer who finds a person in possession of any "antique firearm" is not authorized to demand that the person present a licence, registration certificate, ATT, and/or ATC.
On the other hand, an "antique firearm" is still a "firearm" for the purposes of all sections of the Criminal Code other than those listed above. For example, an "antique firearm" is a "firearm" for the purposes of CC s. 85 (using while committing an offence), 86 (storage and transportation rules -- but the rules for "antique firearms" are very mild), 87 (points a firearm at another person), 88 (possession for a purpose dangerous to the public peace), 89 (possession at or on the way to a public meeting, and 90 (carrying a weapon [see CC s. 2 "weapon" and "firearm"] concealed).

Criminal Code section [CC s.] 84(1) "antique firearm" defines "any firearm manufactured before 1898 that was not designed to discharge rimfire or centre-fire ammunition and that has not been redesigned to discharge such ammunition" as an "antique firearm" [emphasis added].

The C-68 Firearms Act section 84(1) definition of "antique firearm" includes "any firearm that is prescribed by Order in Council [OIC]) to be an antique firearm" [emphasis added].

Bill C-68 is very defective legislation, and it is our duty to test it in the fires of work-to-rule. They wrote this defective legislation, and we must enforce -- to the letter -- the requirements that firearms control bureaaucrats have to comply with. Watch for many NFA information in this area.
 
No documentation is required, but I prefer to bring my aforementioned little piece of paper with a reduced copy of my antique letter and the excerpt from the law just in case I encounter an officer who is not familiar with the law or not sure whether my six gun qualifies as an antique. It just makes things a lot easier. We can then both be on our way without unnecessary delays.
 
Back on track a cartridge Howda in 577 Snider would fit the bill now you just have to come up with the Cash last cased one I saw was $10,000.00 but I do love Howdas maybe some day
 
Can somebody please refer to exact place in Firearms Act or other place, which describes storage and transporting of the antiques. I can not find it. Thank you
 
Sig_1959 said:
Can somebody please refer to exact place in Firearms Act or other place, which describes storage and transporting of the antiques. I can not find it. Thank you
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You should be able to find links to that stuff here http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217529

We kind of have two separate threads running here. It might be best to take a look at the above link and, if that doesn't have what you are looking for, post legality questions in that thread and shooting bears comments in this thread.
 
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