sorting 223 brass/ learned my lesson

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crout

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I know everyone already knows what i'm going to say but hopeful a few may learn something.
so i wasn't much of a believer in sorting 223 brass by weight or volume. but i do sort by headstamp.
i went to the range to working up a new load(ran out of federal match primers). I had some pretty good groups and the usual flier. so i decided to mark the flier and then check them out when i got home. my results proved to me i need to be more tedious in sorting my 223 brass if i want to get the groups i desire, the flier was always the case that weighed more/less than the rest of the casings in group.
so out of shear luck i found a great group measuring 0.196" and the flier made the group 0.742"
so in hopes to prove to myself i am an idiot i just need to reproduce the group then i can add this learning experience to my note book.
 
(Five shot groups...?)

I would be most surprised if a heavier/lighter case actually turns out to be the cause of a 0.2" group turning into a 0.7" group.

Reload your brass, using the same loads that you originally used. Keep the "flier" pieces of brass in there too, and mark them with a sharpie so you can identify them (preferably in a way that isn't too obvious to you when you load your rifle)

Fire your groups again. If your new groups have fliers, I'll bet that most of them are not from the "flier" pieces of brass (in fact I'll bet that the connection between fliers on the paper and individual pieces of brass is pretty much random).
 
I understand that cases with a different interior volume can cause changes in pressure & therefore velocity.

How much of a weight difference was there ?
 
rnbra-shooter said:
(Five shot groups...?)

I would be most surprised if a heavier/lighter case actually turns out to be the cause of a 0.2" group turning into a 0.7" group.

Reload your brass, using the same loads that you originally used. Keep the "flier" pieces of brass in there too, and mark them with a sharpie so you can identify them (preferably in a way that isn't too obvious to you when you load your rifle)

Fire your groups again. If your new groups have fliers, I'll bet that most of them are not from the "flier" pieces of brass (in fact I'll bet that the connection between fliers on the paper and individual pieces of brass is pretty much random).
Click to expand...

4shot groups. when i redo the load i will be doing 10shot groups. any fliers and i'll mark the brass with a sharpie.

well lets hope the connection between the flier and the brass is not random for my sanity.

the 3 that grouped well weighed 93.7, 93.75, 93.9, and the flier weighed 95 grains.
 
What kind of rifle/scope/etc are you shooting (i.e. what's a reasonably expected level of accuracy)? Nothing that I know of, short of an all-out benchrest rifle, is capable of honestly and consistently shooting 0.2" groups at 100. For example, my .308W target rifle is able to shoot 0.5" groups at 100. If I were to shoot a number of four-shot groups with it, and all of them were under 0.5", it is quite likely that several of those four-shot groups may very well have a "3+1" pattern to them, with three of the shots forming a much small group. But none of those "+1" shots are flyers, even if they might sorely look like they are - they are legitimately part of the group.

It may well be the case that you are shooting 0.7" four-shot groups, and what looks like a "flier" is simply one of the shots in your group.

Understanding and interpreting groups is tricky. On the one hand you don't want to throw out any information; perhaps there is a connection between "X" (case weight; bullet runout; cheek pressure; wind flag lifting or mirage shifting) and a flyer. On the other hand, you don't want to read in a "false positive". Somehow you have to be a very observant person, while also being a very skeptical person..!

Firing more shots into a group will tell give you a better idea; your ten-shot groups will tell you more about your rifle/load/etc. If later shots "fill in the gaps", and perhaps further enlarge the group, that would indicate that your "flyer" wasn't actually a flyer but simply part of the group. If all the later shots continue to build around your cluster, and the "flyer" remains stubbornly outside of your other nine shots, perhaps it really is a flyer (but why? It could be the ammo; the scope; your shooting technique; wind conditions; etc)
 
Although I am fairly new to all this stuff, I never did understand why people sorted brass by weight. Isn't volume more important than overall weight?

I must say, the other day I was at the range, first got down to start shooting and shot 4 shots then decided I wasn't as comfortable as I should have been so I re-positioned ever so slightly and shot another 4, I was surprised by how much the POI changed. It still grouped the same as the other shots but about 1.5" right @300m. I should have taken a pic to remind me but I was surprised.
 
I hope you are on to something and can make the groups 0.2". Its worth testing to see if that's the cause.

Budweiser360: re volume and weight. My reasoning is that the sizing die makes uniform the outside diameter. The thicker the wall of the case, the heavier it will be and the smaller the internal volume.
 
sorting by volume once you have fireformed the brass is ideal and truly makes the most sense, but i'm not there yet. i do just shoot paper and varmints but if i continue to get the "flyer" then i'll look into some other reason for my flier, ill always be able to find some other reason to blame my flier on. wind, mosquitos, mirage, 300WUM with muzzle break shooting beside me, and the list goes on.

i'm still working on my shooting technique and still getting used to the accutrigger on the 12bvss. and the coarse cross hairs on the bushnell elite 4200T. the 26" shilen ss barrel can no doubt shoot in the .2" at 100yards, i was at 200yards however, sorry if i forgot to mention that. i'm just using a lee deluxe die set right now but will be getting a better more consistant seater down the road.

I guess i'm off to the range tomorrow, weather permitting, to see if sorting my brass will get rid of my fliers.
 
crout said:
I know everyone already knows what i'm going to say but hopeful a few may learn something.
so i wasn't much of a believer in sorting 223 brass by weight or volume. but i do sort by headstamp.
i went to the range to working up a new load(ran out of federal match primers). I had some pretty good groups and the usual flier. so i decided to mark the flier and then check them out when i got home. my results proved to me i need to be more tedious in sorting my 223 brass if i want to get the groups i desire, the flier was always the case that weighed more/less than the rest of the casings in group.
so out of shear luck i found a great group measuring 0.196" and the flier made the group 0.742"
so in hopes to prove to myself i am an idiot i just need to reproduce the group then i can add this learning experience to my note book.
Click to expand...

Your last posting says you were shooting at 200 yards.
If you are telling us the above groups were made at 200 yards, let me be the first to scream, BULL BISCUITS.
 
I load for my 223, a Sako A1 laminated blued version, with a box of 1000 sized and trimmed once fired cases I bought off this site for $100. I prime them with either Fed or CCI primers, dump the powder, seat the bullet and it holds well under MOA out to 300 metres.

Playing too much with 223 handloads is a waste of time.
 
I often sort cases when working up a load, simply to reduce any chance of frustration, but once I establish a load, I dont' sort, as I am mostly loading for hunting rifles. I have found sorted brass often gives a bit better group, which helps for load work up.
 
Crout, nothing wrong with the Lee seater die from the deluxe set.
H4831 dont you believe him? I do that kind of group every day, off hand, with a blindfold, its easy.:onCrack::rolleyes:
 
For the most part, sorting all components by lot numbers to start with, is an aid to consistency in your reloads. It helps to minimize the slight variations that sometimes occur in different production runs. Then, another stage in sorting, especially in the bullets and brass, is sorting by weight or volume capacity.
 
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H4831 said:
Your last posting says you were shooting at 200 yards.
If you are telling us the above groups were made at 200 yards, let me be the first to scream, BULL BISCUITS.
Click to expand...

is that a bit of envy i smell:p
it was at 200 yards. no BS. what's the point of lying.
my other groups for for that day were 0.415"3 shot with the "flier" making the group 1.3" then i had a another 4shot measuring 0.81" the rest are over an inch. so only 2 of the 7 groups measured under 1"

so i went back out today, fingers crossed. and elcrapo. my 24.7gr loaded to the same specs as the first day measured just under 2" for an 8 shot group? none of the 8 shots of the group grouped well. so i'm stumped. maybe my weigh scale is out of wack. i loaded up 15 others and changed seating depth by 0.005"
one group measured 1.112" the other was a verticle string measuring 1.716" and the last with the bullet just touching the rifling measured 0.875"

so i guess back to the drawing board. first thing is to check my scale and see if it's the problem. 0.1gr can make a pretty big difference i guess.
 
so out of shear luck i found a great group measuring 0.196" and the flier made the group 0.742"
Click to expand...
Am I reading this wrong? The bullet itself is .224" and you shot a .196" 5 shot group? The group was smaller than the dimension of one bullet?
 
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