Swiss Arms in pictures - for newbies who want to look under the hood

50calshooter said:
Yeah, and that's partly my point, These guys spend atleast 3K to get a stamped steel plain jane classic green, I pay 3K and get a full blown AR with a machined lower and with all quality parts. When you compare the two side by side, It seems that you are paying way more for a classic green then you should be....
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The cost is what it is. It's a factor of many things like import costs, exchange rates, lack of supply, high demand, etc. If we look at things in the zero-sum way you propose, we would probably all own one AR, one Glock, one Rem 700, one 870, and nothing else.

People don't normally ask whether they can build a better AR for $3k because someone who can afford to drop $3k on a rifle can probably afford both. :D
 
eigenvector said:
The cost is what it is. It's a factor of many things like import costs, exchange rates, lack of supply, high demand, etc. If we look at things in the zero-sum way you propose, we would probably all own one AR, one Glock, one Rem 700, one 870, and nothing else.

People don't normally ask whether they can build a better AR for $3k because someone who can afford to drop $3k on a rifle can probably afford both. :D
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And thats totaly fair, but I would rather have my money go towards quality parts, rather than import fees/rates, etc. etc..... Obviously the AR platform has its import fees etc. but for dollars to quality comparison, I got way more quality built into my AR for 3K, then a plane jane classic green does at 3K...

And I spent 3k+/- on mine but I cant afford to buy both, Im a firm believer in quality over quantity... So it will take some more saving to do my next one...
 
50calshooter said:
...but for dollars to quality comparison, I got way more quality built into my AR for 3K, then a plane jane classic green does at 3K...
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I'd have to call B/S on that one. That may have been true a few years ago, but ARs and parts availability and costs have gone through the roof. Even if you factor some of the cost increases with the Sigs, the gaps have narrowed drastically.
Don't get me wrong, I believe the AR is a fine platform, and my go-to for competition. But, you can and easily will spend $3000 on a comperable AR compared to the Sig.

50calshooter said:
These guys spend atleast 3K to get a stamped steel plain jane classic green, I pay 3K and get a full blown AR with a machined lower and with all quality parts. When you compare the two side by side, It seems that you are paying way more for a classic green then you should be...
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I've now read in two threads you yammering on about the stamping as if it is a weakness compared to machined Aluminum. What gives you the impression steel is weaker than Aluminum? (assuming you know what forces are acting on the receivers in the first place).
 
beltfed said:
I'd have to call B/S on that one. That may have been true a few years ago, but ARs and parts availability and costs have gone through the roof. Even if you factor some of the cost increases with the Sigs, the gaps have narrowed drastically.
Don't get me wrong, I believe the AR is a fine platform, and my go-to for competition. But, you can and easily will spend $3000 on a comperable AR compared to the Sig.



I've now read in two threads you yammering on about the stamping as if it is a weakness compared to machined Aluminum. What gives you the impression steel is weaker than Aluminum? (assuming you know what forces are acting on the receivers in the first place).
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Its how its manufactured that depicts it's strength, forged or machined as one piece is going to be a stronger structure then formed stamped out steel. Also the other part of my argument is that it looks fackin cheap compared to my ATRS machined lower, put both lowers side by side what looks of higher quality to you?

As far as the "yammering" I figured I'd fill the gap for ya, god knows we've all herd your rants on the XCR
 
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50calshooter said:
And thats totaly fair, but I would rather have my money go towards quality parts, rather than import fees/rates, etc. etc..... Obviously the AR platform has its import fees etc. but for dollars to quality comparison, I got way more quality built into my AR for 3K, then a plane jane classic green does at 3K...

And I spent 3k+/- on mine but I cant afford to buy both, Im a firm believer in quality over quantity... So it will take some more saving to do my next one...
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I'm going to call BS on that one.

It seems that you have forgot....

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3222944&postcount=16

AR Finish: Anodized over aluminum in most cases.
Swiss Arms Finish: ceramic-reinforced enamel coat called Ilaflon.

AR Materials: Milled Aluminum. Steel internals of varying quality. Steel hammer forged barrels.
Swiss Arms Materials: The receiver and gas system are made of steel. The barrel, bolt, bolt carrier, and firing pin are all made with steel that has been gas nitrided, hardened and tempered. The bolt and carrier, along with most other components internal to the receiver undergo a phosphating process.

AR Quality control: Depends on Manufacturer
Swiss Arms Quality control: Swiss Made. Does not leave the factory untill it shoots 24 shots into 4.3"X2.8" at 330 yards with Swiss GP90 ammo. (7x11cm at 300m or 1.3 MOA).

AR Reliability: Direct Impingement. It s**ts where it eats. Barrel life up to 5000-10,000 rounds depending on barrel and accepted accuracy loss. Bolts last 3000-5000 rounds.
Swiss Arms Reliability: AK style gas system. "Experience indicates that depending on the grade of ammunition used, the barrel has to be changed after approx. 20000 up to 30000 rounds have been fired. 15000 rounds for wearing parts of the bolt assembly are quite feasible: other small components will last for anything up to 30000 rounds. Major components such as trigger housing, bolt, receiver, plastic parts, the main components of the trigger action may readily be expected to withstand 40000 rounds. We have weapons at our plant which have major components still fully functional after firing 80000 up to 100000 rounds."

I have never, ever had or seen a FTF or a FTE, and that's in -20C to +20, with all kinds of high and low powder reloads. Most Swiss Arms owners out there can attest to this no-failure track record.



All that aside, just look at what an AR setup of the same would cost you:

Standard AR-15: $1500
Gas piston system: $700
Bipod: $200
Click on sling: $50
Folding Stock: $160
Cleaning kit: $40

=2650. Plus taxes and shipping for all the parts and your pretty close to the price of a new Swiss arms. I got mine basically new for $2500 plus tax.
 
Why dont you do a more proper comparison to an LMT or Noveske... and 5000 to 10000 round barrel life pfff... oook dude... why ru guys not getting this, stamped steel is the cheapest way to manufacture a rifle, thats its only advantage, plus I guess weight savings, to bad the cost of the cheaper manufacturing isn't passed on to the customer... stamped steel stinks of cheapness no matter what they coat it with...
 
50calshooter said:
Why dont you do a more proper comparison to an LMT or Noveske...
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Tell me where they don't have milled aluminum receivers, anodized finishes, hammer forged barrels, direct impingement systems, etc.. They would fit under "AR Qualifty control: depends on manufacturer"

and 5000 to 10000 round barrel life pfff... oook dude...
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If your into benchrest, 5k is the limit. 10k is the mil-standard for barrel change. Their accuracy requirement is 3" at 100 yards. You can shoot a barrel to 200,000 rounds, but it won't have much accuracy left. Like I said it depends on how much accuracy degredation you are willing to accept.

why ru guys not getting this, stamped steel is the cheapest way to manufacture a rifle, thats its only advantage, plus I guess weight savings, to bad the cost of the cheaper manufacturing isn't passed on to the customer... stamped steel stinks of cheapness no matter what they coat it with...
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Not like it really matters when the reciever lasts 100,000 + rounds.

Anyhow, I'd take stamped steel over polymer or milled aluminum any day of the week. Finding a steel receiver in new production firearms is a rarity these days.
 
50calshooter said:
Its how its manufactured that depicts it's strength, forged or machined as one piece is going to be a stronger structure then formed stamped out steel.
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A forged or machined aluminum receiver is not stronger than the stamped & hardened (and reinforced with steel forgings of its own) steel receiver of the Swiss Arms. Why do you think they used steel in the first place?
You're on crack.:onCrack:;)
 
beltfed said:
A forged or machined aluminum receiver is not stronger than the stamped & hardened (and reinforced with steel forgings of its own) steel receiver of the Swiss Arms. Why do you think they used steel in the first place?
You're on crack.:onCrack:;)
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They used steel cuz it's cheaper to manufacture and can produce higher volumes faster, whatever beltfed im not gettin in a pissing match here, agree to disagree...
 
50calshooter said:
Yeah, and that's partly my point, These guys spend atleast 3K to get a stamped steel plain jane classic green, I pay 3K and get a full blown AR with a machined lower and with all quality parts. When you compare the two side by side, It seems that you are paying way more for a classic green then you should be....
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50 Cal, Not sure you are getting a better gun for 3k with fancy dancy parts on the AR. a 3k AR might look cooler and shoot tighter groups but when the chips are down it will need more replaced parts, will have many more failure to feeds, and malfunctions then the SA ever will. Total cost of ownership for the AR will be twice the SA cost. Plus the SA is much easier to clean, and I am guessing the receiver will never have been an issue. Not sure I would judge a gun by the perceived lack of suffiecient strength in the stamped receiver. Sure there are stronger materials, the real question is are they necessary and the obvious answer is no, not this time.
 
50calshooter said:
They used steel cuz it's cheaper to manufacture and can produce higher volumes faster, whatever beltfed im not gettin in a pissing match here, agree to disagree...
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Have you inspected one? I very much doubt, and would be very suprised the receivers (both lower and upper) are cheaper to manufacture on the Swiss Arms when compared to that of the forging or machining of an AR receiver.

The lower:
- there is a cast or machined (I suspect the initial piece is cast and then finish machined) butt stock mount that is welded and braised to the rear of the lower break shape. This piece has integral webs that provide support for the rear take down pin.
- Machined steel baffle providing trigger, hold open device & magazine release support. Again, welded and braised in place.
- Steel support for front takedown pin weled and braised in place.

The Upper:

-Trunion and Front takedown block is a contiguous machined block that has been both spot and GTA welded.
- Both bolt carrier rails are machined and are spot welded.
- The rear take down pin block is machined steel and spot welded to the reciever.
- Rear sight block is machined steel and been fastened to the top rear of the receiver with (what appears to be) GTAW.
- All welds are followed up with brazing I believe.
I'm not an expert (by any stretch of the imagination) but looking at the TIG welds on both the trunion and the rear sight block, they are both readily visible and not ground smooth. On both rifles I have, they are impecible.

The finish has been covered above in Nickorette's post.

In any event, while it may be your position to claim the stamping is of lower cost than machining, I think if you consider the above while you examine one, you would agree there is substantial arguement to claim otherwise.

Back to the strength issue. You are right, without deconstructive testing info on both, there is no way for me to prove my or disprove your theory on the relative strengths of each receiver. I only have the relative strengths of Aluminum vs. steel to back me up. If you disprove that, well....good luck with your findings.
 
Total Engineered Solution is always more important than the individual parts used... Yes, it is stamped steel but it is not deficient in any way in its design or manufacture in terms of what you are alleging.
 
This argument about receiver strength is entirely redundant. The bolt on an AR-15 locks into the barrel extension, allowing designers to use cheap and lightweight aluminium. The receiver construction plays no part in "durability". In both rifles, the receiver serves only as a housing for the bolt carrier guide rails. That's it. Now shut your whore mouths. :D
 
koalorka said:
This argument about receiver strength is entirely redundant. The bolt on an AR-15 locks into the barrel extension, allowing designers to use cheap and lightweight aluminium. The receiver construction plays no part in "durability". In both rifles, the receiver serves only as a housing for the bolt carrier guide rails. That's it. Now shut your whore mouths. :D
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While your post is all true, the part about durability is debatable.
As a combat rifle, the receiver often acts as protection of the internals as much as a case or housing for them. More or less akin to a skid plate like one protecting a 4x4s transfer case...would you rather have a skid plate made of steel or aluminum?
 
Great posting ghostie! Where have you disappeared to? After taking the time to post those pics I thought you'd have soemthing to say to 50Cal.

I was looking between the XCR and the 550 and this amongst other threads (along with testing research and cold hard facts) helped convinced me to pick up a beautiful new Black Special last week!!!! Can't wait to test my new cheap stamped steel!:rockOn:

I had heard the price was going up to over 4k for them in the near future. Anyone els hear this?
 
KB77Hell said:
Great posting ghostie! Where have you disappeared to? After taking the time to post those pics I thought you'd have soemthing to say to 50Cal.

I was looking between the XCR and the 550 and this amongst other threads (along with testing research and cold hard facts) helped convinced me to pick up a beautiful new Black Special last week!!!! Can't wait to test my new cheap stamped steel!:rockOn:

I had heard the price was going up to over 4k for them in the near future. Anyone els hear this?
Click to expand...

:jerkit: :stfun00b:
 
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