Going back and forth for 3 pages? just take the gun to a 100 ton press and send me a pic
Swiss Arms in pictures - for newbies who want to look under the hood
- Thread starter ghostie
- Start date
Going back and forth for 3 pages? just take the gun to a 100 ton press and send me a pic
- Location
- 54°52'56"N 112°10'7"W Alpha Bravo
Really. And you'd know of me to speak on that point exactly...
how?
My full, legal name is openly posted in the clear, as included in the signature block below. As such, their is no 'shadowy' component to my participation or posts on shooting in Canada.
I have both shot and briefly owned an XCR, and found them not to my liking. Excellent ergonomics, with what I assessed under my own power to be questionably robust features.
Conversely, I currently own several SAN rifles, and am patently aware of both their pros and cons. I have been found on this board to have regularly provided what I feel are sensible, open commentaries on both rifles. Those comments originate from my own personal biases as someone who has run several families of military small arms to their near limits.
I didn't storm Saddam's palace. I did not capture Al Quaida while wearing black pyjamas. I was just fortunate enough to serve with a number of folks who have performed such actions; albeit in a time before they became far cooler than I ever hoped to be. (my wife is snidely reminding me that it is now more an era than a time, but it IS nice to stay grounded in reality from time to time.)
While no where near authoritative on the subject, I do believe myself fairly well equipped to offer my opinion on that which I own and actively shoot.
Further to that note. I maintain many connections with active shooters in both the military and civilian sectors; all of whom I am confident have expressed opinions that they can fully and credibly backed by credible names in the industry today. Name dropping on the internet is ### as f**k, so I'll restrain those comments to any place, any time, on any range in Canada with vetted shooters, and let that body determine whether the opinions of THOSE credible shooters can be taken as valid.
Without exception, they have expressed their reservations to me in both personal and open forum conversations on the merits of running the XCR as a platform that they will depend on in any high risk or high use scenario.
Are you suggesting your expertise in metal working in a non-related field to be strong grounds to reject those opinions?
Open up the door to my credibility if you wish. As a former paratrooper with no active history in the last 15 years, I have little to loose as I have no skin in that particular game. I am merely an interested observer, but one with enough history to not be stunned and glassy eyed simply because 5 people know of a guy who served somewhere that one time, and who claims that a particular product is absolutely 'the heat.'
Do recognize that until we can equally examine your comments for their veracity sir, they will remain filed as another anonymous Internet opinion.
Until then, do recognize that this attempt to impose an amateur opinion based off unrelated experience is not going to become easier. It will become harder as more and more of our troops return to Canada with recent, directly related experience.
Some such posters have already politely refuted you in this thread alone, and you have not had the clarity to see it.
Dude ru serious? thanks for the story, but ah.. all I was giving was my opinion, and at the same time I wasn't shooting down anyone elses opinion (with respect to the actual topic)... So I'm not too sure what all this babel is about... I'm not trying to totally diis the swiis rifle, just trying to discuss the materials used in said rifle compared to others... but thanks for the drivel anyway... Ihave had like one or two responses about this topic the rest all bashing and negitive, so I cant help but defend myself,,,
50calshooter,
Where posters get their "hackles up" is when someone comes along and makes statements that prove that they don't have experience with a certain topic. Based on the statement(s) that you have made you have exposed yourself as an amateur (when it comes to Swiss Arms guns). You may have experience with metals but you don't have the experience to comment on the Swiss Arms guns.
This has been pointed out to you and in a "not nice way" for a bit by some. Now you are trying to defend your knowledge and honor instead of admitting that you are wrong. As I said before, generally stamped steel parts means not as strong or as high quality as machined or forged but not in the case of Swiss Arms. Red Leg wasn't joking when he talked about cutting a receiver and how tough it was.
The guns are built like tanks. The receivers are rated for over 100 000 rounds and then some.
Rich
Where posters get their "hackles up" is when someone comes along and makes statements that prove that they don't have experience with a certain topic. Based on the statement(s) that you have made you have exposed yourself as an amateur (when it comes to Swiss Arms guns). You may have experience with metals but you don't have the experience to comment on the Swiss Arms guns.
This has been pointed out to you and in a "not nice way" for a bit by some. Now you are trying to defend your knowledge and honor instead of admitting that you are wrong. As I said before, generally stamped steel parts means not as strong or as high quality as machined or forged but not in the case of Swiss Arms. Red Leg wasn't joking when he talked about cutting a receiver and how tough it was.
The guns are built like tanks. The receivers are rated for over 100 000 rounds and then some.
Rich
- Location
- 54°52'56"N 112°10'7"W Alpha Bravo
Agree to disagree I guess, Stamped Steel does NOT say quality to me, nor does the look of it, especially when its on a $3000+ gun... SO apologies for ruffling feathers here, to each there own....
PS Stamped steel is not high quality, even on a swiss...
- Location
- East Vancouver
Great Job!
I can understand why 50calshooter might have the opinion he does about stampings, since at one time people who designed firearms would have shared his opinions.
The ability to produce firearms using steel stampings is I believe quite difficult and was originally mastered by the Germans in the Second World War. To quote from the EM-2 Concept & Design by Thomas Bugelby (Available from Collector Grade Publications)
“The war brought a new breed of men to British Arsenals: The weapons designers, most of them European in origin, who had been driven out of their home-lands by the advancing Germans. Captured examples of the new types of weapons, designed and produced in Germany during the war, were examined by the teams, it was first thought that they were ‘ersatz’ pieces due to the extensive use of sheet metal stampings. Further examinations soon proved them to be otherwise. Due to shortages of expensive alloys, German gun designers had been forced to re-design weapons by using plain carbon steels where possible. A typical example of this was the FG 42 first and second models. The Germans had mastered the art of mass production in wartime conditions without the loss of quality, and at a far cheaper price than that being paid by the rest of the world. Most countries used weapons manufactured in the time consuming tradition of extensively machined, expensive forgings”
I believe it took until the 1970’s before many countries could produce steel stampings for the productions of weapons (i.e. the AK74, since original AK47 had a forged receiver) and this is the reason why post war weapons like the FN FAL and M14 still used forgings.
I believe that weight was a major concern when developing the SIG550 (Classic Green) which I believe weighs 4.1 kg (9lbs) empty with the attached bipod. I would be curious to hear what the bipod weights, since weight could be an issue when this rifle is equipped with a scope, base and rings which I would expect would add about 20 oz to the total weight.
The ability to produce firearms using steel stampings is I believe quite difficult and was originally mastered by the Germans in the Second World War. To quote from the EM-2 Concept & Design by Thomas Bugelby (Available from Collector Grade Publications)
“The war brought a new breed of men to British Arsenals: The weapons designers, most of them European in origin, who had been driven out of their home-lands by the advancing Germans. Captured examples of the new types of weapons, designed and produced in Germany during the war, were examined by the teams, it was first thought that they were ‘ersatz’ pieces due to the extensive use of sheet metal stampings. Further examinations soon proved them to be otherwise. Due to shortages of expensive alloys, German gun designers had been forced to re-design weapons by using plain carbon steels where possible. A typical example of this was the FG 42 first and second models. The Germans had mastered the art of mass production in wartime conditions without the loss of quality, and at a far cheaper price than that being paid by the rest of the world. Most countries used weapons manufactured in the time consuming tradition of extensively machined, expensive forgings”
I believe it took until the 1970’s before many countries could produce steel stampings for the productions of weapons (i.e. the AK74, since original AK47 had a forged receiver) and this is the reason why post war weapons like the FN FAL and M14 still used forgings.
I believe that weight was a major concern when developing the SIG550 (Classic Green) which I believe weighs 4.1 kg (9lbs) empty with the attached bipod. I would be curious to hear what the bipod weights, since weight could be an issue when this rifle is equipped with a scope, base and rings which I would expect would add about 20 oz to the total weight.
Like is said before 50calshooter,
When it comes to steel stampings you are right in general terms and in the past with some weapons. Many, in the past, were made from stampings as a quick and cheap way to mass produce weapons that were "pretty good".
This is not the case with the Swiss Arms Rifles. Agree to disagree all you want, what it boils down to is: you don't have experience with the current Swiss Arms Rifles OR you wouldn't be making these statements. This is why you have exposed yourself as a amateur (when talking about Swiss Arms Rifles).
(Why am I baited into continuing this?)
Out,
Rich
When it comes to steel stampings you are right in general terms and in the past with some weapons. Many, in the past, were made from stampings as a quick and cheap way to mass produce weapons that were "pretty good".
This is not the case with the Swiss Arms Rifles. Agree to disagree all you want, what it boils down to is: you don't have experience with the current Swiss Arms Rifles OR you wouldn't be making these statements. This is why you have exposed yourself as a amateur (when talking about Swiss Arms Rifles).
(Why am I baited into continuing this?)
Out,
Rich
- Location
- 54°52'56"N 112°10'7"W Alpha Bravo
Its all good Rich, seee now we are having a civil conversation, instead of bashing eachother all over the board. Instead of just saying over and over , "this is not the case with the swiss rifle" perhaps you could elaborate more and tell me why, since you clearly are not an amateur with swiss rifles ... Beacuse to me stamped steel is stamped steel..... Rhino, thanks for the info that is an interesting lil' history lesson ... I guess the only solution here is to go shoot one so I think im guna head out to cow town this weekend and try one, if i can find the time 
...
... Beacuse to me stamped steel is stamped steel..... Rhino, thanks for the info that is an interesting lil' history lesson ... I guess the only solution here is to go shoot one so I think im guna head out to cow town this weekend and try one, if i can find the time ...- Location
- 54°52'56"N 112°10'7"W Alpha Bravo
I agree...
Be careful 50calshooter,
Many who can afford them, buy them after, trying them.
They are basically "hand built" in Switzerland by some of the highest quality control standards in the world. Very solid good guns. They are the exception for "stamped" guns.
Only complaint is that they are a bit heavier than some of the AR guns, which is true as they are all steel.
Attention to detail, fit and finish is unbelievable. The guns are like clones of each other.
Rich
Many who can afford them, buy them after, trying them.
They are basically "hand built" in Switzerland by some of the highest quality control standards in the world. Very solid good guns. They are the exception for "stamped" guns.
Only complaint is that they are a bit heavier than some of the AR guns, which is true as they are all steel.
Attention to detail, fit and finish is unbelievable. The guns are like clones of each other.
Rich
Let the hand-wringing begin. Some lucky CGN now owns a rare SAN Carbine.
You broke down did yah!!!!!
- Location
- California (formerly from BC)
I am not too worried about stamped steel with how the Swiss Arms is designed and built and how it shoots / is warranted to shoot in terms of accuracy. I shoot it, I don't dodge 200 ton presses with it. Nor will I use it to prop open a large stone door in an Indiana Jones movie.
From Nickorette's post: http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3439155&postcount=58
From Nickorette's post: http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3439155&postcount=58
A stamped rifle should never cost that much, but...one is very well kitted out with one in any case. Now that the dollar has risen to nearly 93 cents US, how about the price going back down?
Hint.
Hint.
Stamped rifles require high production rates to justify the expense of the machinery. Unfortunately there are no such high production rates for our guns.
The rifles are purchased in Switzerland in Swiss francs. While the Swiss franc has dropped a little recently compared to the $Cdn, the prices of the guns and parts has also risen. You will not be seeing a price decrease any time soon.
50calshooter. You are right, forging or machining receivers will make a stronger receiver, but it will aslo make the gun sig-nificantly more expensive to manufacture wouldn't it? The rifles are plenty costly now. Heck I am hoping they can soon hand bend the receivers as that will drive the cost down and I can buy a few more. Maybe you could do the honors!
- Location
- 54°52'56"N 112°10'7"W Alpha Bravo
Yeah, and that's partly my point, These guys spend atleast 3K to get a stamped steel plain jane classic green, I pay 3K and get a full blown AR with a machined lower and with all quality parts. When you compare the two side by side, It seems that you are paying way more for a classic green then you should be....
