Magpul b.a.d. Lever

As I stated before I’m not a gadget kind of guy .I’m a if it works don’t fix it kind of guy. The same reason I don’t like gas pistons on AR’s. The direct action gas systems works well and there is no need to add any more moving parts. That’s just my option.
I will trial this new item, because it may have some merit, in regards to economy of movement and effort, while doing (some) drills.
I will run the BAD on an eagle arms (Armalite) lower with LMT upper.
I will run a Dlask lower with out the BAD with the same upper for the trial.
I will do 3 or 4 GF serials plus a PWT 4 with each.
I will also simulate double feeds, to test the BAD.
I have no interest in this other then the economy of effort, of using the BAD.
I suspect that double feed and failure to feed drills will be faster. Change mag drills will remain the same when using the cocking handle, with Badger ordnance extended leaver. Buy using the cocking handle you get that little bit extra out of the spring to get the bolt back into battery. Press checks will also be more efficient when using the cocking handle.

My belief is that unloading and stoppage dills will be more efficient. Loading and change mag drill will not change, at least for me.
 
yohann160 said:
One piece of kit that is a life saver is the extended charging handle latch. Works wonders for lefties and makes things faster for righties as well. Used to be I had to move my optic further up the rail to be sure to be able to hit the latch on the first try.
Click to expand...


You love the ambi charging handle because you're a lefty. It is a PITA for us normal people. :p

IMO the ambi CH should have been only issued to leftys and either have a standard or PRI Gastbuster CH for the rest.
 
rockenrod said:
As I stated before I’m not a gadget kind of guy .I’m a if it works don’t fix it kind of guy. The same reason I don’t like gas pistons on AR’s. The direct action gas systems works well and there is no need to add any more moving parts. That’s just my option.
I will trial this new item, because it may have some merit, in regards to economy of movement and effort, while doing (some) drills.
I will run the BAD on an eagle arms (Armalite) lower with LMT upper.
I will run a Dlask lower with out the BAD with the same upper for the trial.
I will do 3 or 4 GF serials plus a PWT 4 with each.
I will also simulate double feeds, to test the BAD.
I have no interest in this other then the economy of effort, of using the BAD.
I suspect that double feed and failure to feed drills will be faster. Change mag drills will remain the same when using the cocking handle, with Badger ordnance extended leaver. Buy using the cocking handle you get that little bit extra out of the spring to get the bolt back into battery. Press checks will also be more efficient when using the cocking handle.

My belief is that unloading and stoppage dills will be more efficient. Loading and change mag drill will not change, at least for me.
Click to expand...

I'm one of those "lean & mean" subscribers who doesn't like hanging things off of my toys.

Seems to me you spent some time thinking about the advantages/disadvantages of the kit you are considering putting on your AR.
Unlilke other posters who appear to be doing it the other way around.

I look forward to reading about your experiences as I am considering purchasing the B.A.D. lever.

As my manual of arms uses the bolt stop to chamber a round from a new magazine I suspect the utility of this device may prove itself.

For those who look down on this method - I've never had a round that wasn't chambered correctly. And if I started to - I'd probably look into replacing the spring.

But then I'm the type that thinks the forward assist is a useless..... but I can only play on a "sterile" range.

While marketing hype may get my attention - experimentation will get me to buy. Jury is still out on if this is going to work.

L
 
juliet lima said:
Why would you need to lock the bolt back anyway?

Drop mag, tilt rifle, cycle action....
Click to expand...

Some double feeds it is very difficult to remove the magazine with the bolt partially forward. You must lock the bolt to the rear to strip the magazine.

rockenrod said:
Buy using the cocking handle you get that little bit extra out of the spring to get the bolt back into battery.
Click to expand...

When you put the mag in, your thumb is already next to the bolt catch. Just press it, there is no need to run the charging handle.
 
Anytime I've released the bolt catch to chamber a round I've never had any sort of stoppage where using the charging handle would have worked "to get that little bit of extra uumph".


I've been told guys on gunfighter use the charging handle because when you're in a life or death situation your fine motor control goes to s**t and thus grabbing the charging handle is supposedly easier. I don't know about you, but it seems to me that palming the side of a rifle would be easier than grasping a small handle with your index finger and thumb. I suppose it could be the CFs way of justifying those awkward ambi charging handles. :p

That said, I do like the idea of the Magpul BAD. I think I'll order one for myself along with one of those ASAP sling plates. :D
 
I'm thinking one little bit of info regarding the BAD is missing in this discussion. I think one of the major reasons Magpul (ie. Travis Haley) developed/improved/whatever the BAD is to work in conjunction with a Redi-Mod. Once you mount one of these, the bolt release lever gets a lot harder to manipulate. The little pushbutton extension on the Redi-Mod is a joke to work in a hurry.
 
rockenrod said:
I have 20+ years of AR experience, this is both Military and personnel use. Not that I’m an expert but I’m very familiar with the AR platform.
I have done gunfighter, urban ops ect.
I’m not into having my AR(s) full of gadgets, but I do think that the BAD has some merit.
I never use the Bolt catch for empty mag or a stoppage drills. I use the cocking handle, ensuring the bolt goes full forward plus then I go into a press check, when reqr.
I will run drills with and without the BAD.
Click to expand...


Waste of effort and time to use the cocking handle like that, but to each their own. As well press check is not required or advised on all reloads especially when conducting stoppage drills or emergency reloading.

The difference between using a BAD and hitting the bolt catch in not that much but does allow the support hand to remain on the hand guard/vert grip which is very efficient, it is worth looking into at the least but IMHO not required.
 
Here's the issue with using the bolt catch. Should the catch or magazine fail to function properly after the last round your bolt will remain closed. As the operator you will experience the "click" when attempting to trigger another round. Your response will be TAP, TUG, RACK(on the charge handle). If the magazine or bolt catch decide to function the bolt will lock to the rear, if they don't, the bolt runs forward. At this point you will again experience the "click". Your response now should be to reload, and this is where the problem arises.

Your rifle usually runs like a dream, bolt holds open on the last round and has done so for many many reloads. You execute your reload in the situation above and palm the bolt catch. Only the bolt catch is useless, the bolt is forward in battery. You attempt to trigger rounds and get nothing. Your response, TAP, TUG, RACK. If you run the charge handle all the time, you'll never have an unloaded rifle. The charge handle only has one job, to charge the rifle. The bolt catch is capable of two jobs, catching the bolt on the last round, and releasing the bolt when you desire. You run a 50% chance that the bolt catch hasn't done its job. The CH has no choice but to operate in the role it was designed. This issue is present in Magpul's video on disc three when a student experiences a double feed. He clears it, inserts a fresh magazine and palms the bolt catch. He gets nothing. He stands there stunned then proceeds to run the CH. Again, start with the CH and you won't have this problem.

Everytime you insert a magazine, you run the charge handle(or slide). With this manual of arms you will never have an unloaded firearm. Yes, it can cost you a round should you already have one chambered but the alternative is far worse. Training your mind to operate your firearms should involve as few, uncomplicated commands as possible. An emergency reload should be no different from a tactical reload, which should be no different from reloading after a clearance drill. Bolt position shouldn't make a difference either. Insert magazine, cycle the charge handle. This method works on all rifles, even those without bolt catches. The same cannot be said for the "ping pong" method preached by Magpul.

As for the BAD lever. Its primary advantage is in clearing stoppages. As others have pointed out, during a double feed removing the magazine is a b*tch and you must release the pressure on the magazine(by retracting the bolt) to remove it and clear the stoppage. The BAD allows you to do this from your firing position/stance in a short period of time.

TDC
 
I have a device similar to the Magpul BAD on my AR(s)...

It's very handy. 'Makes unloading and showing clear a much less acrobatic feat and it it does speed up ones reload whilst on the move.
 
TDC said:
Here's the issue with using the bolt catch. Should the catch or magazine fail to function properly after the last round your bolt will remain closed. As the operator you will experience the "click" when attempting to trigger another round. Your response will be TAP, TUG, RACK(on the charge handle). If the magazine or bolt catch decide to function the bolt will lock to the rear, if they don't, the bolt runs forward. At this point you will again experience the "click". Your response now should be to reload, and this is where the problem arises.

Your rifle usually runs like a dream, bolt holds open on the last round and has done so for many many reloads. You execute your reload in the situation above and palm the bolt catch. Only the bolt catch is useless, the bolt is forward in battery. You attempt to trigger rounds and get nothing. Your response, TAP, TUG, RACK. If you run the charge handle all the time, you'll never have an unloaded rifle. The charge handle only has one job, to charge the rifle. The bolt catch is capable of two jobs, catching the bolt on the last round, and releasing the bolt when you desire. You run a 50% chance that the bolt catch hasn't done its job. The CH has no choice but to operate in the role it was designed. This issue is present in Magpul's video on disc three when a student experiences a double feed. He clears it, inserts a fresh magazine and palms the bolt catch. He gets nothing. He stands there stunned then proceeds to run the CH. Again, start with the CH and you won't have this problem.

Everytime you insert a magazine, you run the charge handle(or slide). With this manual of arms you will never have an unloaded firearm. Yes, it can cost you a round should you already have one chambered but the alternative is far worse. Training your mind to operate your firearms should involve as few, uncomplicated commands as possible. An emergency reload should be no different from a tactical reload, which should be no different from reloading after a clearance drill. Bolt position shouldn't make a difference either. Insert magazine, cycle the charge handle. This method works on all rifles, even those without bolt catches. The same cannot be said for the "ping pong" method preached by Magpul.

As for the BAD lever. Its primary advantage is in clearing stoppages. As others have pointed out, during a double feed removing the magazine is a b*tch and you must release the pressure on the magazine(by retracting the bolt) to remove it and clear the stoppage. The BAD allows you to do this from your firing position/stance in a short period of time.

TDC
Click to expand...


Good points, but in all cases the use of the charging handle is not required, in the case of a bolt forward stoppage yes you must get the bolt to the rear to chamber a round,(TAP<TUG<RACK) and in a double feed or "type ate" stoppage the working parts must be cycled to the rear in order to clear the feedway.
In the case of an emergency reload from an empty magazine use charging handle is not required,it is much more efficent to insert the magazine and hit the bolt catch to release the bolt carrier to chamber the round. The user, with experience will know when the bolt locks back,by the feel of the weapon,just as the feel of a double feed when it occurs. Of course the ideal is to mentally count the rounds fired and never let the weapon run dry but that is not always realistic when under duress.
There is an issue to be aware of with the practice using the knife edge of the hand to cycle the charging handle to consider as well, by using this method you will apply lateral pressure on a device that is meant to move in a straight line, this in some cases with poorly designed 2nd Tier manufactured charging handles will cause the changing handle to excessively wear or bend rendering it useless. If you do choose to use the charging handle it must be pulled straight to the rear using a proper grip.

No matter what drill you decide to use, stick with it and don't change it up to suit the fashion of the time,only through repetition do movements become instinctive.

As for the argument of fine motor skill fade, hitting the bolt catch is not different from moving the change lever from fire to safe,opening a magazine pouch or any of the other of the fine motor functions that will degrade under stress. Train it until it is reflex.
 
Reaper said:
Good points, but in all cases the use of the charging handle is not required, in the case of a bolt forward stoppage yes you must get the bolt to the rear to chamber a round,(TAP<TUG<RACK) and in a double feed or "type ate" stoppage the working parts must be cycled to the rear in order to clear the feedway.
In the case of an emergency reload from an empty magazine use charging handle is not required,it is much more efficent to insert the magazine and hit the bolt catch to release the bolt carrier to chamber the round. The user, with experience will know when the bolt locks back,by the feel of the weapon,just as the feel of a double feed when it occurs. Of course the ideal is to mentally count the rounds fired and never let the weapon run dry but that is not always realistic when under duress.
There is an issue to be aware of with the practice using the knife edge of the hand to cycle the charging handle to consider as well, by using this method you will apply lateral pressure on a device that is meant to move in a straight line, this in some cases with poorly designed 2nd Tier manufactured charging handles will cause the changing handle to excessively wear or bend rendering it useless. If you do choose to use the charging handle it must be pulled straight to the rear using a proper grip.

No matter what drill you decide to use, stick with it and don't change it up to suit the fashion of the time,only through repetition do movements become instinctive.

As for the argument of fine motor skill fade, hitting the bolt catch is not different from moving the change lever from fire to safe,opening a magazine pouch or any of the other of the fine motor functions that will degrade under stress. Train it until it is reflex.
Click to expand...

As I mentioned, an emergency reload utilizing the bolt catch only works if the bolt is retracted. I agree that most who shoot regularly have the ability to feel and hear the difference when the bolt locks to the rear on the last shot. That being said, why rely on such input when running the CH at all times will rectify the problem without fail? I agree that the BC is easily accessed after a reload and should produce faster times. The advantage offered by using the BC is seriously negated if the bolt is not locked to the rear. In this event no amount of pressing, pushing, slapping or hitting of the BC will change the condition of the rifle. A completely wasted movement that will result in having to use the CH. I prefer to eliminate the risk by running the CH at all times, which also minimizes my manual of arms. Subsequently, the only answer my brain will seek after inserting a magazine into my rifle, is to access the CH. A guarantee that I the rifle will be loaded after completion.

I'm aware of the issues with off line manipulation of the charge handle. I for one do not condone or use the knife edge technique. I also run gas buster charge handles on both my carbines. Factory CH's are far too small and poorly made for aggressive use. Like any piece of equipment, your CH will wear out or become otherwise unserviceable. Inspect regularly and replace as necessary.

Running the BC doesn't work for all shooters. Especially lefties and lefties who cannot reach the BC or do not have the dexterity to operate the catch. Again, cycling the CH works for everyone on all rifles.

TDC
 
Adhering to doctrine retards improvement, do what works but keep an open mind. To say one method works for everyone is a false statement, I don't use the CH for open bolt mag changes it works for me and over thousands of repetitions has proved it a sound technique for my purposes. In short you do your thing I'll do mine, because they work and are what we have trained over and over again but may not be suitable for anyone else.
Why would anyone be hitting the bolt release on a bolt forward/not fully forward stoppage? Considering the first motion is to observe the position of the bolt on any stoppage,you have brought this up a few times, just curious to see your reasoning.
 
Reaper said:
Adhering to doctrine retards improvement, do what works but keep an open mind. To say one method works for everyone is a false statement, I don't use the CH for open bolt mag changes it works for me and over thousands of repetitions has proved it a sound technique for my purposes. In short you do your thing I'll do mine, because they work and are what we have trained over and over again but may not be suitable for anyone else.
Why would anyone be hitting the bolt release on a bolt forward/not fully forward stoppage? Considering the first motion is to observe the position of the bolt on any stoppage,you have brought this up a few times, just curious to see your reasoning.
Click to expand...

My point is this. Running the CH is 100% guaranteed to charge the rifle. Running the BC is not. I prefer absolutes, this is one of the few that exist.

A stoppage is different than an IA. When the rifle fails to fire, you execute a TTR. IA's require no other input then the initial failure to fire. If your IA(TTR) fails to solve the issue a reload or stoppage drill is in order. At this point you can observe the chamber to determine the issue at hand. Could be a stoppage, could be a bad magazine. Clearly a RACK on the CH followed by no forward slam of the bolt carrier is a stoppage and would require remedial action. If the RACK works as advertised and still no joy, its a bad magazine. Reload. This reload will be done with the bolt forward. Running the BC in this case is futile. Running the charge handle is the default answer after the BC fails. So why not eliminate the portion of ones manual of arms where failure is possible and stick with the CH right from the start?


As for adherence to doctrine. I am of no such thought. Adhering to what works without fail until proven otherwise is more my style. There are both pros and cons to running the CH as there are for the BC. I am willing to ensure my rifle is loaded everytime I insert a magazine by running the CH at the expense of a fraction of a second to execute such. Maintaining a manual of arms that is both predictable and reliable removes the need to concern oneself with the actions involved or learn additional movements.

TDC
 
My point was that no action is taken until the position of the bolt is verified, the old cant,look, and #### drill. Even when conducting drills in a tactical environment you check the position of the bolt first, if it is fully/partially forward you pull the action to the rear using the CH, if it is fully to the rear dump the empty mag (99.99% of the time) insert fresh mag and hit the bolt release or use CH. A few times you have stated that in the case of a bolt forward stoppage or a bad load it is useless to hit the bolt release. It is obvious that will have no effect yet it seems to be a main point you are trying to make

"on such input when running the CH at all times will rectify the problem without fail? I agree that the BC is easily accessed after a reload and should produce faster times. The advantage offered by using the BC is seriously negated if the bolt is not locked to the rear. In this event no amount of pressing, pushing, slapping or hitting of the BC will change the condition of the rifle. A completely wasted movement that will result in having to use the CH."

It is a moot point and has no bearing on the use of the BC during emergency/admin reloads (bolt locked back empty rifle/empty magazine) at all as you must get the action to the rear to remedy the malfunction that is only accomplished with the CH. Not harping but I don't get the use of the example.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom