Weapons failed US troops during Afghan firefight

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harbl_the_cat said:
I agree with the points made here about the M4 overheating with extended full auto. I disagree with the points being made about replacing the M4 and M249 as the standard issue weapons for TIC's at the section/platoon level.

Instead, the article should be focus on why the troops don't have enough heavier and more coordinated weapons with or supporting them - like more 20mm turrets on LAVs (as we have), .50 cal machine guns on humvees, tanks, close air support, or artillery.

Man for man, I'd be willing to guess one insurgent with an AK is an approximate equal to an infantryman with an M4. Armor and heavy weapons are a greater force multiplier than infantry. Logistically, the cost of replacing and retraining for a new service weapon is likely to be more expensive and put the troops at greater risk than to roll in heavier weapons and armoured vehicles.
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I agree. The problem is not with the M4 or M249 platforms, but that they were being used for a purpose they weren't designed for. Why did they not have any medium or heavy machine guns? Nobody should be providing sustained full-auto suppressing fire from their M4.

20 guys with assault rifles and LMGs cannot defeat 200 guys with assault rifles and LMGs. But 20 guys with assault rifles and one A10 definitely can.
 
Davy Crockett said:
I think that for those of us who haven't been there to second guess the actions of the guys who were, is insulting. We should do a bit less armchair quarterbacking and leave it to those who have the qualifications.
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It was left to those with so-called "qualifications"
and it resulted in disaster (9 dead + 27 wounded).
 
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9 dead, 27 wounded, where does the number 20 come into this? Those people went through a hell of a firefight. 30 minutes and 12/30 mags by the outfits sergeant. Sergeants are the real brains of a fighting unit. They are the cohesion that keeps things under control. They were in a bad spot and reacted as trained. Weapons systems all have their weaknesses for many different reasons. Parts wear prematurely or break etc. There are many reasons. I'm not familiar enough with the AR system to give a proper opinion here so I won't. I do think that with overwhelming odds, even from a well covered position, with superior weapons against them, rocket propelled grenades, they did rather well just holding the position and some of them coming out of it alive. If they managed to get off so many rounds in a sustained fire fight says something of the capabilities of the troops. Full auto or not, they fought back and with adrenaline pumping may not have been as effective as sitting on the bench at the range. If it was the weapon's fault, it won't take long for it to go like wild fire through the ranks. Troops will refuse to fight if their equipment is unsuitable and morale will deteriorate to the point that they will need to be replaced. Troops will and do put up with a lot of hardship and crap but they expect their equipment to function. There are always a few individuals that just don't take care of their equipment. They are the bane of the platoon and put everyone else at risk.
In this case I don't see that happening. Most of the US troops in Afghanistan are vets and know the situation and what is required. The fact that the sergeants weapon failed is ominus and does/should require investigation.
 
P0WERWAGON said:
i have never been a soldier
i have never been trained to fight with a rifle.
the following is just the rambling of an uninformed (ignorant) person.

that is 360 rounds in 30 minutes. they were being over run by just 200. did he even aim? were they ALL running at him? it seems as if his happy switch was just stuck in the ON position
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Happy switch, maybe or maybe not, 360 rounds in 30min is still only 1 round every 5 seconds, that is a very decent rate for aimed shots. Full auto is about 10 rounds per seconds (600 rpm), he could have been bursting, equating to a 10 round burst every 50 sec, or a 3 round burst every 15 seconds. In all cases it does not seem like excessive use of rounds down range.

I like my AR, but it has never been used in combat, so I can't argue the AR vs AK topic.
 
^-little side note to that.

Wikipedia:
Mad minute was a pre-World War I term used by British riflemen during training to describe firing 15 aimed bullets into a target at 300 yd within one minute using a bolt-action rifle (usually a Lee-Enfield or Lee-Metford rifle). It was not uncommon during the First World War for riflemen to beat this feat by an excessive amount. Many riflemen could average 25 shots, while others yet could make 40 shots. It was rumored that a company of assaulting German soldiers were repelled by machine gun fire, while in actuality, it was a rifle squad of ten riflemen firing at an excessive rate. Annually, a group of British owners meet for a mad minute competition.
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15 shots a min is 450 in 30min. With a bolt action. Aimed.
 
dingus said:
You would think wide open places like Iraq and Afganastan a M14 would be better. 308 Nato has more stopping power.

I have seen pictures in Iraq of guys useing M14s
I never understood why they went with the 223.
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:agree:

The M14 was built to win a war.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1986/MVT.htm


Suputin said:
AK's suffer from overheating as well. Who hasn't seen the video where the guy fires an AK until the handguards burst into flames? Does anyone want to argue that this is superior to an AR/M4?
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The key is even on fire the AK will still work, it is the Chuck Norris of combat Rifles. :D

Also having seen the vids of how much ammo the US soldiers burn through with little aiming I'm not surprised they are having overheating problems...yah know use it like a Rifle and not a Machine gun.
 
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so technically speaking, I'm better off getting a 700$ CZ-58 than a 1800$ stag-arms 2T as a first rifle...... or find a gas piston AR?
 
Davy Crockett said:
I think that for those of us who haven't been there to second guess the actions of the guys who were, is insulting. We should do a bit less armchair quarterbacking and leave it to those who have the qualifications.
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The commandos from black and green have not yet arrived. Make sure to get a protector cup.
 
Did a bunch of you stay at the holiday inn express last night? Lots of armchair quarterbacks in the room tonight. Have fun, I look forward to the comments on why a norinco M305 would have performed better, or why we should re equip with the M14 or AK...

Do a search for 223 vs 308 or AR vs whatever. We find the need to rehash this every couple of months

The only person making sense is Harbl. . Machine guns and crew servers win fights...
 
eigenvector said:
Are you planning to take your first rifle to Afghanistan?
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actually I'm being deployed next month to Durka Durkastan. No air support or armored vehicles, only donkeys and mountain goats. I'll be riding solo, solid snake style....





No just saying. I'm still thinking of getting an AR since I can't stand the fuglyness of the CZ but I'm thinking of a gas piston AR or XCR. I like to know that my rifle is dead reliable. What's the use of all the tacticool stuff if the gun can't go through hell...
 
I was talking with a fellow Gun Nut. He used to be in the CF and claimed that barrel twist plays a role in overheating during full auto fire. When he first qualified with the M-16 when it was first introduced he said the Canadian version had a different barrel twist and resisted jamming. The American version overheated and jammed more easily.

I don't know if the barrel twist in current rifles M4 vs C8 are different but it would be interesting to know. Perhaps a barrel change would help reduce the overheating problem?
 
harbl_the_cat said:
I agree with the points made here about the M4 overheating with extended full auto. I disagree with the points being made about replacing the M4 and M249 as the standard issue weapons for TIC's at the section/platoon level.

Instead, the article should be focus on why the troops don't have enough heavier and more coordinated weapons with or supporting them - like more 20mm turrets on LAVs (as we have), .50 cal machine guns on humvees, tanks, close air support, or artillery.

Man for man, I'd be willing to guess one insurgent with an AK is an approximate equal to an infantryman with an M4. Armor and heavy weapons are a greater force multiplier than infantry. Logistically, the cost of replacing and retraining for a new service weapon is likely to be more expensive and put the troops at greater risk than to roll in heavier weapons and armored vehicles.
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+1, but to save training time, simple bring in the HK416=problem solved. You will have equally & surpass the reliability of any AK variant & retain all the great things from the M4/16 system. Instead of bringing there yearly/monthly shipments of M4's just bring in HK416 for Afghanistan & Iraq.
 
Leibermuster said:
+1, but to save training time, simple bring in the HK416=problem solved. You will have equally & surpass the reliability of any AK variant & retain all the great things from the M4/16 system. Instead of bringing there yearly/monthly shipments of M4's just bring in HK416 for Afghanistan & Iraq.
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Not this again....please re read the post from a couple of months back so we don't have to go through this again....good heavens...
 
00Buck said:
I was talking with a fellow Gun Nut. He used to be in the CF and claimed that barrel twist plays a role in overheating during full auto fire. When he first qualified with the M-16 when it was first introduced he said the Canadian version had a different barrel twist and resisted jamming. The American version overheated and jammed more easily.

I don't know if the barrel twist in current rifles M4 vs C8 are different but it would be interesting to know. Perhaps a barrel change would help reduce the overheating problem?
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Twist rate has nothing to do with overheating......
 
C'mon now Morpheus, I just wrapped Call of Duty 4 and watched Kellys Heroes the other night. That should provide me with the experience to comment on an intense firefight in A-stan.
 
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