The IPSC Box.

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IPSCSouthpaw

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I'd like to know how other sections are dealing with the aluminum box for measuring the size of handguns? I measured the box myself, and found it to be +-.005", which is close enough for our purposes, but it's made to the lower end of the allowable limit. 225mmx150mmx45mm is the size given in the rule book, with a +1mm -0mm allowance. If someone's gun doesn't fit in the box, who's to determine by how much the gun doesn't fit? According to the rules, we're allowed a millimeter over. That's .03937". Now I've long said that this rule is improper. You can't give this measurement an allowance. The gun either fits, or it doesn't. Now there's just too much room for argument. Anyone who spends time machining can tell you that .005" might as well be a mile when trying to hold close tolerances. As far as I'm concerned, the boxes should have been 226mmx151mmx46mm. It's the only way to remove the guess work.



IPSCSouthpaw
 
I think this allowance is not for the gun, but for the box itself.
Box can still be accepted as "standard" if it's 1mm over in any direction, but you cannot argue that your gun is still standard if it does not fit in box made to exact size.
You must always give some tolerance for physical objects, +1 -0 means that box should never be smaller than given dimensions, but also not more than 1 mm bigger.
 
IPSC Canada Boxes were made at the exact dimensions, with no tolerance. The sections were told to let their members try it this year and start enforcing it in January. The concept is simple, if you make it here - you'll make it anywhere. All sections have a box, you don't have to wait until a major match to find out if your gun fits. The rest, I'll leave to NROI Canada...
 
My view would be that you need to make sure your gun is 224mmx149mmx44mm and then you have no worries. Everybody is subject to the same box at the same match so all is fair IMO. Most shooters attend most of their matches in the same division, if travelling outside their own division such as the nationals I would be making sure my gun fit the lower end of the tolerance scale(and my spare). I shoot production so it does not affect me but see the same complaints about the box everytime we hold a match.
 
this has been beaten to death on the world forum. the answer is if the box is within the dimensions given in the rule book and your gun doesn't fit then you are going to open. there is no arbitration available based on the fact that the box can be 1mm larger then the dimension given and your gun would fit into that box.
 
I guess my point was that if someone goes to a match, and their gun doesn't fit into a box that is 225mmx150mmx45mm, how is it determined that the competitor is going directly into open division when the very simple and easy argument can be made that the rule book states the box could have been bigger by 1mm? Maybe my gun is only 1/10 of a mm too big? It leaves to much for argument. Giving an allowance, especially as much as 1mm, is simply wrong. I've already made sure mine fits, but it's still a poorly defined rule.



IPSCSouthpaw
 
It's not an allowance...it's a manufacturing tolerence.

The rule allows for the reality that most boxes will never be 100% dimensionally accurate due to the limitations of the manufacturing process.

They can't be undersized...obvioulsy...but they can be up to 1 mm larger. They can be...they don't have to be...so if your gun is 1/10 of a mm to big and you happen to be using a box that is exactly to spec(exactly 225 by 150 by 45)...then it's too big end of story....and you go to Open


IPSCSouthpaw said:
I guess my point was that if someone goes to a match, and their gun doesn't fit into a box that is 225mmx150mmx45mm, how is it determined that the competitor is going directly into open division when the very simple and easy argument can be made that the rule book states the box could have been bigger by 1mm? Maybe my gun is only 1/10 of a mm too big? It leaves to much for argument. Giving an allowance, especially as much as 1mm, is simply wrong. I've already made sure mine fits, but it's still a poorly defined rule.



IPSCSouthpaw
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All of the major points have been covered by Quigley and Sean.

But here is a recap:

As long as the box is within the manufacturing tolerance, it complies with the rules.

It is up to the competitor to make sure that there firearm fits in side the box.

This can not be arbitrated. It is the competitor responsibility to make sure that there equipment complies with the rules of there division. If a standard or production competitors equipment does not comply then they are moved to open.

A lot of debate was done on what dimensions to build the box to. It was decided to build it to the minimum size. That way if your gear make it in Canada, it will comply with the rest of the World. (Also, I will not be surprised if the tolerance is removed in a future rule book revision.

Many of us do not like the way the rule is written, but it is something that we all have to leave with. The best advice that I can give you is to make sure that your equipment complies with the smaller dimensions of the box.

DVC
 
DVC1911 said:
Also, I will not be surprised if the tolerance is removed in a future rule book revision.
Click to expand...

That, my friend, would be the WRONG direction to take. It opens the door to "if the box is not exactly to spec" it can be arbritrated and thrown out.

A tolerance IS NECCESSARY... It is impossible to manufacture something to exact spec with no tolerance.

The tolerance is in place because manufacturing processes in different parts of the world, well... differ. A guy making an IPSC Box down in Guatemala out of bamboo and coconut shells might need a little tolerance to get the job done.

You show me a perfect "to spec" box and I'll show you some means of measuring to show variation/deviation.
 
Boxes will also swell and contract 1mm depending on weather conditions, humidity etc.

If I go to a match with a gun that is at the maximum allowed size. I would try to acclimatize my gun when I got there before it goes in the box. Another reason for tolerances
 
maka said:
Boxes will also swell and contract 1mm depending on weather conditions, humidity etc.

If I go to a match with a gun that is at the maximum allowed size. I would try to acclimatize my gun when I got there before it goes in the box. Another reason for tolerances
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That is why the box that IPSC Canada provided is certified at a certain temperature.

Having used this series of boxes at several Level III, we have found that all firearms have fit, except for a couple of Tanfogloi's. When we inspected these firearms we found that the beaver tail was a little larger.

THat is the primary reason we have circulated the boxes amongst the sections and have recommended that they be implemented next year. To give everyone the chance to check there firearm.

DVC
 
Well we had a box at the Kelowna match and my Edge had to compress the rear site to squeeze in. Can't be good. I think another was bumped to open because his site did not compress. Needs to have the mag well shaved a bit. Is this not taken into account when manufacturing this gun? It is a Standard gun primarily isn't it? I haven't altered the external dimensions since I bought the gun.
 
DVC1911 said:
All of the major points have been covered by Quigley and Sean.

But here is a recap:

As long as the box is within the manufacturing tolerance, it complies with the rules.

It is up to the competitor to make sure that there firearm fits in side the box.

This can not be arbitrated. It is the competitor responsibility to make sure that there equipment complies with the rules of there division. If a standard or production competitors equipment does not comply then they are moved to open.

A lot of debate was done on what dimensions to build the box to. It was decided to build it to the minimum size. That way if your gear make it in Canada, it will comply with the rest of the World. (Also, I will not be surprised if the tolerance is removed in a future rule book revision.

Many of us do not like the way the rule is written, but it is something that we all have to leave with. The best advice that I can give you is to make sure that your equipment complies with the smaller dimensions of the box.

DVC
Click to expand...

DVC1911 said:
That is why the box that IPSC Canada provided is certified at a certain temperature.

Having used this series of boxes at several Level III, we have found that all firearms have fit, except for a couple of Tanfogloi's. When we inspected these firearms we found that the beaver tail was a little larger.

THat is the primary reason we have circulated the boxes amongst the sections and have recommended that they be implemented next year. To give everyone the chance to check there firearm.

DVC
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The industry standard temperature for inspection purposes is 68F/20C.

That being said... and noting the highlighted points from your quote...

What happens to the IPSC Canada boxes when they are used in temperatures below 68F/20C?

(They shrink!)

That is the primary reason that the box that I manufactured incorporated a little room for temperature variation on either side of my box dimension while still maintaining spec.

(And while we are talking about it... why aluminum boxes for IPSC Canada? Anyone notice how fast those boxes get chewed up by sight blades and such? Boxes should be made out of steel... and if you are worried about your precious little gun getting scratched, make it fit the box with ease!)
 
I'll doubel check...but I thought the sides of the box had steel insert panels...



Filthy1 said:
The industry standard temperature for inspection purposes is 68F/20C.

That being said... and noting the highlighted points from your quote...

What happens to the IPSC Canada boxes when they are used in temperatures below 68F/20C?

(They shrink!)

That is the primary reason that the box that I manufactured incorporated a little room for temperature variation on either side of my box dimension while still maintaining spec.

(And while we are talking about it... why aluminum boxes for IPSC Canada? Anyone notice how fast those boxes get chewed up by sight blades and such? Boxes should be made out of steel... and if you are worried about your precious little gun getting scratched, make it fit the box with ease!)
Click to expand...
 
Just a recap on some of the manufacturing thoughts so far. First, there is a difference between tolerance and allowance. Everything has a tolerance when being manufactured. The tolerance on the boxes we are talking about is not listed. The allowance is. I understand that the same place made the boxes and that they all should be close. I have made my guns to fit that box. Problem solved. I was only curious as to other sections have been dealing with this, as I have been out of the IPSC game for a while and am now coming back in. I measure and machine for a living, and it seemed like an interesting topic for me at least. Thanks for your incite and replies. It will make things easier going forward now that it has been, to some degree, cleared up.



IPSCSouthpaw
 
Oh my god...you could make the Pope kick out a stained glass window. :p

THERE IS NO ALLOWANCE :bangHead:

There is only a tolerance

From the current rule book
..............................
Special conditions:

A handgun in its ready condition (See Section 8.1), but unloaded and with an empty magazine inserted or empty cylinder closed, must fit wholly within the confines of a box which has internal dimensions of 225mm x 150mm x 45mm (tolerance of +1 mm, -0 mm). Note that all magazines must comply, failing which Rule 6.2.5.1 will apply. When a handgun is inserted into the box, rear adjustable sights may be slightly depressed, but all other features of the handgun, (e.g. collapsible and/or folding sights, slide rackers, thumb rests, external hammers, grips etc), must be fully extended or deployed. Additionally, telescoping magazines and/or magazines with spring-loaded bases or base pads are expressly prohibited.
.......................

This could not be more clear

There...I feel better now :cool:


IPSCSouthpaw said:
Just a recap on some of the manufacturing thoughts so far. First, there is a difference between tolerance and allowance. Everything has a tolerance when being manufactured. The tolerance on the boxes we are talking about is not listed. The allowance is. I understand that the same place made the boxes and that they all should be close. I have made my guns to fit that box. Problem solved. I was only curious as to other sections have been dealing with this, as I have been out of the IPSC game for a while and am now coming back in. I measure and machine for a living, and it seemed like an interesting topic for me at least. Thanks for your incite and replies. It will make things easier going forward now that it has been, to some degree, cleared up.



IPSCSouthpaw
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