Unfortunately we(hunters) don't really represent a large part of the population and with an election looming and the PC's hemorrhaging support. We and this program make for a very easy target to all the opposition parties. Especially TWRA. This is where your tax dollars go... the program is already in place...Privatization is an obvious solution.
Interesting thoughts on RAMP
- Thread starter sheephunter
- Start date
- Status
Unfortunately we(hunters) don't really represent a large part of the population and with an election looming and the PC's hemorrhaging support. We and this program make for a very easy target to all the opposition parties. Especially TWRA. This is where your tax dollars go... the program is already in place...Privatization is an obvious solution.
I wouldn't run around saying the sky is falling. Someone needs to ask the tough questions and uncover all of the facts in order for us to make informed decisions. I don't believe any of the conspiracies being bandied about rather I just wish to concentrate on the facts......
Sorry I digress...
The pilot can only not fail if good folks stand back and let it.
The way to fixing this mess is to develop parallel data sets that can be used to refute anything that comes from the sin up cards. Precedent may have been established if this is how they evaluated the Walleye tag pilot - but I am unsure about that. Look at the information being gathered in relation to Grizzly numbers - the minister has decided to entertain this, so he would look silly not at least listening to this. this would be a great "pilot" for the AFGA to undertake, perhaps it could even be run when they do their hunter harvest surveys, and or when they do deer counts.
There are many hunters and landowners that think RAMP is a joke - I even heard one landowner claim that he thought it criminal that we were rewarding the Hutterite Colonies for Habitat retention.
The government is vulnerable right now. they are wasting tax dollars on a program that would likely be far less palatable to the average Albertan. This may be a time to start banging the drum to get this out.
The time for personal agendas and preening has long since past. So hopefully the talk about conspiracies and finger pointing will subside so we can concentrate on developing a system that rewards landowners for being true stewards, while not leaving us open to the threat of allowing the commercialization of our public wildlife resources.
What has this done for the average Albertan?
Or this? Ever been to the ER or try to get a doctors appointment?
We've seen how well that has worked out.
Affordable housing that isn't being built or isn't all that affordable. Even if it were, the majority of those living there could be working but choose not to. I know a few, I pay for them. Is that fair?
Same thing!
It helped me, now what do I get?
??????????????????????????
And the criminals get off scott free. Dangerous ### offenders are released with a warning to the public their a serious risk to re offend.
Again, were in the middle of a 'pandemic'. What ha[ppened to our $15 million?
My parents are retired. They get next to nothing from govermental support just to get by day to day. Where's their money?
Money well spent?
I could go on. It's so stupid that we're fighting over this. Want somthing to fight over? Put your efforst towards property rights and gun control. Put them towards real justice for criminals. But stop fighting over a pro hunting progrsm.
Amen! And in case any of you are unclear what the threat is:
“Make wildlife an asset rather than a liability,” Ted Morton.
What has this done for the average Albertan?
Or this? Ever been to the ER or try to get a doctors appointment?
We've seen how well that has worked out.
Affordable housing that isn't being built or isn't all that affordable. Even if it were, the majority of those living there could be working but choose not to. I know a few, I pay for them. Is that fair?
Same thing!
It helped me, now what do I get?
??????????????????????????
And the criminals get off scott free. Dangerous ### offenders are released with a warning to the public their a serious risk to re offend.
Again, were in the middle of a 'pandemic'. What ha[ppened to our $15 million?
My parents are retired. They get next to nothing from govermental support just to get by day to day. Where's their money?
Money well spent?
I could go on. It's so stupid that we're fighting over this. Want somthing to fight over? Put your efforst towards property rights and gun control. Put them towards real justice for criminals. But stop fighting over a pro hunting progrsm.
If it is privatized and there is a very good chance this is where we are heading -as this was the original aim of the Parent RAMP/Open Spaces program. It is no longer a pro-hunting program. A privately run program by deffinition, must make a profit.
And here lies the big concern. Have you ever been turned down by a producer for access to their land to shoot deer or antelope? I'll bet if you did it didn't happen very often. And they let you on for the same reasons they let you shoot gophers. Deer, like gophers are at competition with cattle for feed. It costs producers money to feed deer. They hate them and want them gone. For every hunter willing to spend umpteen thousand dollars to shoot one trophy animal, they will lose many times that on feed because regular joe blow hunters have no access to their lands.
I hunt one such Ranch. They said different. They said that if they could profit from the wildlife(that they currently see as vermin) they could reduce their cattle herd and promote more game growth. A'int alot of money in the cow business these days but there is alot of work. You start looking at trophy fees for an animal and all they have to do is leave it alone. No shot's no cowboy time no vet bills. They loose money when they are in competition with the wildlife.
Don't forget, Ted Morton has already proposed moving whole herds of animals to create more hunting opportunities.
Don't forget, Ted Morton has already proposed moving whole herds of animals to create more hunting opportunities.
I agree but the money for a province-wide RAMP isn't going to come from the taxpayers. Remember, Ted said it will be self funding. To me that means user pay. How many hunters do you think we'd lose in Alberta if a $400 levy was suddenly added to hunting licences. So no, we can't afford this.
But we as the user alreay pays. $20 for a WIn card, $30 for a deer tag, $30 for an elk tag. $10 for a game bird, $22 for doe draws. Where does all that money go?????
Considering the severe cutbacks that SRD is facing, there's obviously not enough to cover the current costs of enforcement, biologists, printing regulations and all the infrastructure associated with SRD. It's not like they are trying to figure out how to spend that money. You want to a province-wide RAMP.....you are going to have to pay for it...up front! The current well is dry and joe public isn't going to help pay for you to access private land to kill Bambi.....at least that's the way I see it.
Perhaps, but again look up how our money is spent. It could be better used. Anyways it doesn't matter. I'll bow out of this debate and let you all carry on. But first I will go on records saying I won't have a final judgment until after the trial is done. however I support the concept and truely belive in every fibre of my being if it succeeds, more sportsmen will be created. Have a good season folks and stay safe. 
Perhaps, but again look up how our money is spent. It could be better used. Anyways it doesn't matter. I'll bow out of this debate and let you all carry on. But first I will go on records saying I won't have a final judgment until after the trial is done. however I support the concept and truely belive in every fibre of my being if it succeeds, more sportsmen will be created. Have a good season folks and stay safe.
Well, it's always good to hear the other side of a discussion. I'll leave the bashing and childish name calling to those more experienced. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
I'm outta here. Have fun with it.
He just can't stay away.
I just put my quote in for ####z and giggles
Perhaps, but again look up how our money is spent. It could be better used. Anyways it doesn't matter. I'll bow out of this debate and let you all carry on. But first I will go on records saying I won't have a final judgment until after the trial is done. however I support the concept and truely belive in every fibre of my being if it succeeds, more sportsmen will be created. Have a good season folks and stay safe.
I have no arguments that our money could be better spent. Initiating a government funded and unsustainable program to allow stipend to landowners might be seen as inappropriately allocating money to most folks too.
I have to disagree with your observations on the program too. If there is not "public" money available (to which Ted Morton has claimed there is not) to fund this, there is only one possible source to derive it. Ted also mentioned he wanted to take this Province wide.
If it is not funded by the government, and yet he wants to roll it out Province wide - where will that funding come from. That is right - the hunter that wishes to access.
I have never seen an increase in participation by any group when you institute a new layer of costs, especially on new/young recruitment.
Thanks for the civil discussion Pharaoh.
What Alberta's hunters have to wrap their heads around, is that Ramp is not a stand alone program. It is a pilot program and part of a much larger scheme that Morton dreamed up.
While Open Spaces is not currently part of the debate, why would anyone believe that Morton has changed his mind. It was his arrogance and political ineptitude that lead him to believe he could ram the original programs through. Obviously he has changed his tactics and scaled back how the programs are implemented but there is no evidence to suggest that he has given up on his dream of "Hunting for Habitat" of HFH:
In other words, ranchers will have tags that they can sell to the higest bidder. This isn't one of TJ's conspiracies, this isn't speculation, this is a matter of public record and a clearly stated goal of Ted Morton when he originally proposed RAMP.
Here is another idea of Ted's(although it sounds more like Cormac Gates)
While Open Spaces is not currently part of the debate, why would anyone believe that Morton has changed his mind. It was his arrogance and political ineptitude that lead him to believe he could ram the original programs through. Obviously he has changed his tactics and scaled back how the programs are implemented but there is no evidence to suggest that he has given up on his dream of "Hunting for Habitat" of HFH:
In other words, ranchers will have tags that they can sell to the higest bidder. This isn't one of TJ's conspiracies, this isn't speculation, this is a matter of public record and a clearly stated goal of Ted Morton when he originally proposed RAMP.
Here is another idea of Ted's(although it sounds more like Cormac Gates)
Ramp is a stand alone program. It was once part of Open Spaces but Ted emphatically said that HFH was off the table. I guess you can believe him or you can't but since the problem right now is RAMP, what's the point of bringing up a program that he scrapped? Seems to make more sense to me to fight whats in front of us, not a shadow of what was once in front of us. I'm simply amazed at how some of you cannot just look at RAMP and say, "it's bad, we need to get rid of it." Instead, you need to keep deflecting the focus to ghosts, and conspiracies. No wonder we can't beat this thing....ugh.
The wildlife that is on, or crosses your property belongs to ALL Canadians. They are not your agricultural stock. I hope you are near Fort a la Corne, because landowners like you are the reason cronic wasting disease has set in there. Does your land border on the Northern Provincial Forrest? Do you restrict access to the Crown land as well? There are board rules regarding illegal activities, which you are promoting. It is illegal to charge a fee for access, although very common among outfitters in Saskatchewan.
HFH was "shelved" - Ted Morton's words not mine. I would believe that to be quite different than emphatically removing it from the table.
Generating awareness on how we ended up with RAMP is not deflecting focus. It might be considered gathering information. I know any insight on how we got here is and has been important as we have fought this through the stages leading to RAMP.
As I have stated before - we need to move towards a concentrated effort to oppose RAMP.
I think we know the vast majority of Sportsmen are against this thing - what are some solutions/ideas on fighting it?
Shelved was Ted's original statement but I also heard him subsequently say that it would not come back. Now, I'm not so naive as to believe everything a politician says but for now, I'll take his word on it as we have a big enough obsticle to face in the "stand alone" RAMP.
I suspect we'll see a cabinet shuffle in the next few weeks and all signs point to Ted moving up to Deputy Premier. If there were ever a time to strike, it's when the new guy or gal takes over SRD. Get the opposition asking questions, get the media asking questions, get the voters asking questions. It would be a good time to focus on the FACTS surrounding the "stand alone" and not mire the new Minister down in wild speculation. It would be a good time to focus on the issue. Just my thouhghts anyhow.
- Status
