Steyr SSG 04/08 and Sako TRG 22

[Tomochan]

My repeat test of Sako TRG 22 ( with Kimber 8400 Tactical used for comparison ) took place this past Saturday at Gabriola Rod and Gun. In light rain and wind, the results from the TRG22 confirmed the findings of the previous outing at the PoCo range and the best formula of handloads again shot approx 1/4 MOA ( 0.275" at 100 meters versus 0.231" the previous week) for the 5 shot group. Again, rounds were single loaded and a group was fired from the Sako followed by a group from the Kimber etc etc. Since my 8x32x56 NSX has yet to arrive I was still using the Elite 6x24x50 on the Sako and a Falcon 4.5x18x56 on the Kimber ( when NSX arrives Falcon will be sold ).

In my TRG, the 175 gr SMK over 44 gr of Varget is preferred over the 168 SMK with any powder charge but the crucial factor seems to be seating depth - best results ( 1/4 MOA two weeks in a row ) being found with a COAL of 2.840. No combination of handloads or the FGMM failed to produce a five shot group under an inch with the worst group being approx 0.8 ( don't have notes with me for exact data ) which was, again, consistent with the previous experiment.

 

[dizzy]

1/4 inch at 100M, pretty hard to get much better than that. probably one the reasons SAKO TRG is considered the best out the box rifle available. period

 

[redman]

In light rain and wind, the results from the TRG22 confirmed the findings of the previous outing at the PoCo range and the best formula of handloads again shot approx 1/4 MOA ( 0.275" at 100 meters versus 0.231" the previous week) for the 5 shot group.

Tom, although the odd 5-shot grouping into ¼ MOA is cool (I've had a couple myself), they seldom reflect the statistical average performance of the rifle during its "most accurate" lifetime.

Also, you'd be surprized but rain on its own has very little effect on bullet flight path from what I've read and what I've observed from my own shooting

Other alternatives I thought a little bit about were: Kahles (another hint), and also Schmidt and Bender.

Is there a reason you would go with something else over a Nightforce? I haven't heard anything bad about NF, have you? Or is there a reason you prefer something else over NF?

Thanks,
- Koshy

Aha! So you must've picked up a variant of the SSG-69... Very cool.

Why something else? It's just kind of my personal view, so take it for what it's worth, and any NF owners need not feel offended :

I think German optics are waaay cooler than a Japanese scope posing as an American one.

Case in point, when you get your NF, you'll notice that the "Made in Japan" is on the underside of the tube while a Zeiss or Schmidt prominently display the country of origin on top of the eyepiece-half of the scope. Zeiss/Hensoldt is used by armies all over Europe, most notably Germany and Finland, countries with a tradition of a quality military sniper programs. Accuracy International actively promotes S&B for their AW line, and it's the scope of choice of the Canadian Forces (on the T-Wolf) and Marines (on the M40A3). The Germans & Autrians have a longstanding tradition of optics (think Leica, Swarovski, etc.). There are also some rather unique features, like having the whole elevation range in one or two turns of the dial, or having adjustments in 0.5mm @ 100m (as is the case with Zeiss).

Basically, I have a German riflescope for the same reason I have a Swiss watch.

I don't know as much about owning any of these fine brands except for the S&B. You won't get a lifetime warranty (it's 30 years), but you get a free "checkup/refurbishing" within the first 10 years of owning one if you send in your registration card after buying it. You can also get upgrades like with NF; I'm actually switching to a thinner reticule, and I was offered an illumination option, but didn't go with it (too expensive, like 1000$...).

Call me purist, elitist, whatever, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

 

[Koshy]

Tom, although the odd 5-shot grouping into ¼ MOA is cool (I've had a couple myself), they seldom reflect the statistical average performance of the rifle during its "most accurate" lifetime.

Also, you'd be surprized but rain on its own has very little effect on bullet flight path from what I've read and what I've observed from my own shooting



Aha! So you must've picked up a variant of the SSG-69... Very cool.

Why something else? It's just kind of my personal view, so take it for what it's worth, and any NF owners need not feel offended :

I think German optics are waaay cooler than a Japanese scope posing as an American one.

Case in point, when you get your NF, you'll notice that the "Made in Japan" is on the underside of the tube while a Zeiss or Schmidt prominently display the country of origin on top of the eyepiece-half of the scope. Zeiss/Hensoldt is used by armies all over Europe, most notably Germany and Finland, countries with a tradition of a quality military sniper programs. Accuracy International actively promotes S&B for their AW line, and it's the scope of choice of the Canadian Forces (on the T-Wolf) and Marines (on the M40A3). The Germans & Autrians have a longstanding tradition of optics (think Leica, Swarovski, etc.). There are also some rather unique features, like having the whole elevation range in one or two turns of the dial, or having adjustments in 0.5mm @ 100m (as is the case with Zeiss).

Basically, I have a German riflescope for the same reason I have a Swiss watch.

I don't know as much about owning any of these fine brands except for the S&B. You won't get a lifetime warranty (it's 30 years), but you get a free "checkup/refurbishing" within the first 10 years of owning one if you send in your registration card after buying it. You can also get upgrades like with NF; I'm actually switching to a thinner reticule, and I was offered an illumination option, but didn't go with it (too expensive, like 1000$...).

Call me purist, elitist, whatever, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Thanks for the info, as far as I know illumination is a waste of $$. You look at once, and go ooooo ahhhh and then never use it... it really only serves a real life tactical purpose. Target shooting and rarely hunting, will it find a use

I'm looking at few brands now..
Nightforce, Schmidt and Bender, Kahles, Premier Reticles, Carl Zeiss Hensoldt

Premier Reticles, S&B and Hensoldt being at the top of the food pile right now. From my understanding Hensoldt will blow your mind with the clarity, but eye relief can be an issue if you don't rest your cheek perfectly, a little to the right or left of the scope creates a very noticible fisheye effect. S&B and PR are a very close second, and don't have this issue. I don't know if Hensoldt even has a Canadian Distributor, I don't think they do, but they are going to get back to me.

What I cannot get over is: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=728

27 years.. of harshness and the Kahles is fine! lol

On that note I really cannot understand it... I mean the Kahles has from my understanding crystal clear glass, no problems with turrets or holding the zero... has lots of technology built in... a lot of it invented by them... around for 100+ years, etc, etc... yet they are clearly 2-3K cheaper then any of the others I listed. Why/how is this??? It says: Made in Austia

Ugh!

Thanks,
- Koshy

 

[redman]

My take on the Kahles' pricing is that it just seems like a simple, functional riflescope and is priced accordingly. To quote BigUglyMan, "trace amounts of milspec might be the determining factor" in the price of other, more expensive optics . Maybe it can survive 27 years of just sitting on a hillside, but can it take the punishment of modern "tactical" scopes while still maintaining performance? Beats the hell out of me, but NATO seems to have figured it out lol.

"The Shooting Edge" sells Zeiss Optronics (a.k.a. Hensoldt) and you can PM 'redleg' for more info or just go their site.

 

[Koshy]

My take on the Kahles' pricing is that it just seems like a simple, functional riflescope and is priced accordingly. To quote BigUglyMan, "trace amounts of milspec might be the determining factor" in the price of other, more expensive optics . Maybe it can survive 27 years of just sitting on a hillside, but can it take the punishment of modern "tactical" scopes while still maintaining performance? Beats the hell out of me, but NATO seems to have figured it out lol.

"The Shooting Edge" sells Zeiss Optronics (a.k.a. Hensoldt) and you can PM 'redleg' for more info or just go their site.

So I r an r-tard =/

Turns out I must have been seeing a sale, or in Euros or something the price for a Competition K418 is actually $2,000 (last year) sooo sorry if I mislead anyone =/

But now makes it make more sense

From my understanding Kahles is actually owned by Zeiss now lol...

Thanks,
- Koshy

 

[redman]

the price for a Competition K418 is actually $2,000 (last year)

lol which'll probably make it 2500$ this year

 

[dizzy]

Koshy, don't be afraid to try a NF. for 2/3 the cost of the german ones you will get 99%of the optic, to get the last 1% imrovement you will have to spend and extra $1000. The germans/euros still have the americans beat but not by much anymore.

 

[Woodbeef]

So I r an r-tard =/

Turns out I must have been seeing a sale, or in Euros or something the price for a Competition K418 is actually $2,000 (last year) sooo sorry if I mislead anyone =/

But now makes it make more sense

From my understanding Kahles is actually owned by Zeiss now lol...

Thanks,
- Koshy

Kahles is now owned by Swarovski,not Zeiss.

If you look a bit deeper into the TRG you'll see it was originally developed by Valmet. Sako got lucky by default.

 

[redman]

Koshy, don't be afraid to try a NF. for 2/3 the cost of the german ones you will get 99%of the optic, to get the last 1% imrovement you will have to spend and extra $1000. The germans/euros still have the americans beat but not by much anymore.

Koshy, I gave you some of the differences between NF's and what the Krauts can offer you, which I got from firsthand experience (my regular shooting buddy sports a 5.5-22x50 NSX; we share rifles all the time). Unless dizzy can add some points regarding the NF that I missed, it's up to you whether those differences represent 1%, or more.

Choose wisely: a scope is something you keep for a while, especially when it costs a couple of thousand dollars... Unless your name is Rick and you build .50 cal rifles in Alberta, in which case discarding one multi-thousand dollar scope for another multi-thousand dollar scope is "just another day at the office". See the Chey-Tac thread if you don't know what the hell I'm rambling about lol.

Kahles is now owned by Swarovski,not Zeiss.

If you look a bit deeper into the TRG you'll see it was originally developed by Valmet. Sako got lucky by default.

That is cool to know - what part did they design? Sako seems to have used basic concepts of the action for their other rifles too, Tikka included.

 

[dizzy]

redman, not arguing that Europeans aren't still making the best optics available. Just suggesting that you really have to pay to get a slight improvement over the good American/Japanese stuff. Nf has crystal clear glass and the best adhesive in the industry. I use or used NF, S&B, and Swarovski and from now on will only look at NF as it fits my criteria and I can no longer justify the extra $ needed for the European Optics.

 

[beltfed]

...Zeiss/Hensoldt is used by armies all over Europe, most notably Germany and Finland, countries with a tradition of a quality military sniper programs. Accuracy International actively promotes S&B for their AW line, and it's the scope of choice of the Canadian Forces (on the T-Wolf) and Marines (on the M40A3). The Germans & Autrians have a longstanding tradition of optics (think Leica, Swarovski, etc.).

...and the NXS is used by units in the U.S. Navy...
NF are quality optics that trail very little behind quality European brands.
From electronics to cars and now optics, the Japanese keep having to dispell the notion their engineering and craftsmanship are not up to snuff....its just nonsense.

 

[Slavex]

get the TRG22, you won't be disappointed. Smoothest bolt of any gun I've ever owned or shot. I'll be buying another one next year I think. then using the other one as a trainer gun for students and such. 757Fixer has a 22 as well and is looking to get a 42 in the spring. We both run 5-25 S&B PMIIs. IMHO it's the perfect setup.

 

[Koshy]

Koshy, don't be afraid to try a NF. for 2/3 the cost of the german ones you will get 99%of the optic, to get the last 1% imrovement you will have to spend and extra $1000. The germans/euros still have the americans beat but not by much anymore.

I am not afraid to try a NF, but if you want to deal with FFP the NF is just as expensive as any of the others... Although with NF they have centers in the USA so it doesn't have to go all the way back to Europe.

Kahles is now owned by Swarovski,not Zeiss.

If you look a bit deeper into the TRG you'll see it was originally developed by Valmet. Sako got lucky by default.

Okay so I got it backwards, thats what you get for repeating something someone tells you

Koshy, I gave you some of the differences between NF's and what the Krauts can offer you, which I got from firsthand experience (my regular shooting buddy sports a 5.5-22x50 NSX; we share rifles all the time). Unless dizzy can add some points regarding the NF that I missed, it's up to you whether those differences represent 1%, or more.

Choose wisely: a scope is something you keep for a while, especially when it costs a couple of thousand dollars... Unless your name is Rick and you build .50 cal rifles in Alberta, in which case discarding one multi-thousand dollar scope for another multi-thousand dollar scope is "just another day at the office". See the Chey-Tac thread if you don't know what the hell I'm rambling about lol.

That is cool to know - what part did they design? Sako seems to have used basic concepts of the action for their other rifles too, Tikka included.

I totally get picking my investment wisely I plan on keeping the scope for life.. or at least a very very long time. Infact I have even taken a look at: Hensoldt. But although you cannot top their glass fact of the matter is it probably isn't a realistic scope to look at due that it would be coming straight from Germany and be a German manual, and it would take forever to get, and I don't want to wait forever

redman, not arguing that Europeans aren't still making the best optics available. Just suggesting that you really have to pay to get a slight improvement over the good American/Japanese stuff. Nf has crystal clear glass and the best adhesive in the industry. I use or used NF, S&B, and Swarovski and from now on will only look at NF as it fits my criteria and I can no longer justify the extra $ needed for the European Optics.

Comparing SFP to FFP really isn't fair as the engineering required to put out a FFP is far more.. if you compare a NXS F1 against any European FFP they are within a few hundred dollars of each other (and some of that is exchange rate). Example: NF NXS 3.5-15x50 F1 is about $2889 and a PM2 4-16x50 is $2,882. Also I wouldn't say a S&B PM2 is that far off for applications as the NXS... they can both serve the same purposes due to the fact the PM2 has large external nobs, etc. Obviously this is just my 0.2 cents and I have no problem with you holding that opinion dizzy.

...and the NXS is used by units in the U.S. Navy...
NF are quality optics that trail very little behind quality European brands.
From electronics to cars and now optics, the Japanese keep having to dispell the notion their engineering and craftsmanship are not up to snuff....its just nonsense.

Just because it is used by a military force doesn't necissarily make it best of the best, lots of European brands are used by military forces too, like the USMC using S&B PM2. I agree though, the Japanese people are amazing engineers and deserve more credit.

get the TRG22, you won't be disappointed. Smoothest bolt of any gun I've ever owned or shot. I'll be buying another one next year I think. then using the other one as a trainer gun for students and such. 757Fixer has a 22 as well and is looking to get a 42 in the spring. We both run 5-25 S&B PMIIs. IMHO it's the perfect setup.

I have already picked what I will be using in terms of rifle But it is good to see you having fun (sounds like fun too)! I won't say yet as I wasn't able to get any good pictures on Wednesday, but this Saturday morning I should get some nice ones!


Now for my input! I want you guys to look into Premier Reticles (Yes they make scopes). Everything I have seen/read point to glass that is undecernable compared to S&B but Turrets you will fall in love with and never look back from Also lots of elevation and windage available, even with single turn!


Thanks,
- Koshy

 

[redman]

redman, not arguing that Europeans aren't still making the best optics available. Just suggesting that you really have to pay to get a slight improvement over the good American/Japanese stuff. Nf has crystal clear glass and the best adhesive in the industry. I use or used NF, S&B, and Swarovski and from now on will only look at NF as it fits my criteria and I can no longer justify the extra $ needed for the European Optics.

That's cool - wasn't arguing anything. I actually wanted Koshy to weigh the differences for himself and determine what "percent" they represent for him. After all, value is perceived and that's what pricing is often based on.

...and the NXS is used by units in the U.S. Navy...
NF are quality optics that trail very little behind quality European brands.
From electronics to cars and now optics, the Japanese keep having to dispell the notion their engineering and craftsmanship are not up to snuff....its just nonsense.

Dunno, I still find it kinda fishy that they're not as open to the country of origin... All things being equal, I'd personally prefer get my glass from some place with a longstanding tradition of quality optics and mechanics.

I totally get picking my investment wisely I plan on keeping the scope for life.. or at least a very very long time. Infact I have even taken a look at: Hensoldt. But although you cannot top their glass fact of the matter is it probably isn't a realistic scope to look at due that it would be coming straight from Germany and be a German manual, and it would take forever to get, and I don't want to wait forever

I'm willing to bet the farm that there will be an English version of that manual that they could send you (free of charge, more likely than not), or that is at least available online. If Zeiss is anything like S&B, they will go above and beyond to help you, and it "coming straight from Germany" won't get in the way. Case in point, when I got my scope, there was no cleaning kit in it, despite there being one described in the manual. I shot an e-mail to their sales dept. and within a week got the cleaning kit (and some S&B promotional apparel ). If you're really interested, I again recommend you talk to someone from The Shooting Edge - they may even have one (or more) in stock.

 

[Koshy]

That's cool - wasn't arguing anything. I actually wanted Koshy to weigh the differences for himself and determine what "percent" they represent for him. After all, value is perceived and that's what pricing is often based on.



Dunno, I still find it kinda fishy that they're not as open to the country of origin... All things being equal, I'd personally prefer get my glass from some place with a longstanding tradition of quality optics and mechanics.



I'm willing to bet the farm that there will be an English version of that manual that they could send you (free of charge, more likely than not), or that is at least available online. If Zeiss is anything like S&B, they will go above and beyond to help you, and it "coming straight from Germany" won't get in the way. Case in point, when I got my scope, there was no cleaning kit in it, despite there being one described in the manual. I shot an e-mail to their sales dept. and within a week got the cleaning kit (and some S&B promotional apparel ). If you're really interested, I again recommend you talk to someone from The Shooting Edge - they may even have one (or more) in stock.

They don't have an S&B in stock that I'm looking for and could take 3-4 months

As for the Hensoldt have yet to hear back from them (sounded like they were trying to find one for me or something lol). Also although the glass tops anything else out on the market today, from my understanding the Premier turrets were nicer. And dont get me wrong PR and S&B came a very close second on glass clarity.

Also did you look into Premier? What do you think of Premier?

Thanks,
- Koshy

 

[redman]

I know they have a reputed history and that S&B uses one of their reticules ("Gen4 Mildot" or something like that). The place to get the lowdown on Premiere Reticles is Alberta Tactical Rifle (imports them), I'm sure you've seen that username around here. Shoot him a PM.

 

[Koshy]

I know they have a reputed history and that S&B uses one of their reticules ("Gen4 Mildot" or something like that). The place to get the lowdown on Premiere Reticles is Alberta Tactical Rifle (imports them), I'm sure you've seen that username around here. Shoot him a PM.

They are also building all the S&B 3-12's for the USMC.

I was just wondering if you had looked into them at all and had an opinion I could add to my list of opinions

Thanks,
- Koshy

 

[redman]

You'll have to go to ATR for that. I went to PR's website a while back and just recently, but never tried their products firsthand, and haven't spent any lengthy period with American optics at all... Tried a Leupold once, that's about it!

 

[Tomochan]

PGW ( makers of Coyote and Timberwolf ) also provide Premier Recticle scopes. I've never seen one but I've read that they are very good. I saw in a mag featuring the Tubbs 2000 that the featured rifle was wearing one.