IDPA Cover calls - interesting note

Onagoth

Onagoth

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If your anything like me, you've probably had cover shouted at you while performing a reload, and perhaps even earned a procedural error or two.

Today, while re-reading the rule book I noticed this

Pg 43

If a competitor shoots to slide lock with targets still remaining to be engaged from a specific firing point, the competitor does NOT have to duck behind cover while reloading,
if you are using cover adequately while firing it will also be adequate cover while reloading. Keeping an eye on your threat zone while reloading is a sound tactic in the real world.
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And again on pg 44.

Reloads must be completed from cover, however this does not mean that a shooter must duck back completely behind cover to reload before reengaging targets from a stationary firing point. The contestant may keep his eyes on his next “opponent” as long as he follows the
definition of cover and does not expose too much of his body to the next threat target.
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Defintion of cover: Pg 43

More than 50% of the shooter’s upper torso must be behind cover while engaging threat targets and/or reloading. For low cover, one knee must be on the ground and for vertical cover such as a wall/barricade, 100% of the shooter’s legs and feet must be behind cover.
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I thought this was interesting, I think there is the general misconception that shooters have to be 100% behind cover while reloading.

Thoughts?
 
If you are using cover correctly ie 50% of your upper body and 100% of your lower body is behind cover then you are behind cover and there is no need to duck 100% of your body behind cover to do your reload.

It doesn't mean you can ignore cover while doing a reload.

If you are leaning from the side of a wall and go into your reload often times the shooter just straightens his body and in doing so puts his body 100% behind cover. I see this with new shooters who find the reload difficult enough to do quickly standing straight never mind while leaning out.

Shooters have to be careful though not to lean out to much while doing their reload, as sometimes happens, that is where you can get caught outside of cover.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
...no need to duck 100% of your body behind cover to do your reload.
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I've been called for not taking 100% cover, a few times, even when I had mroe than 50% upper and 100% lower behind cover.

I didn't realize at the time that the procedural was unfair, but now I do.
 
You shouldn't be. If I were you I would take it up with the MD. If you get no satisfaction then send me an email or one to the Club Contact in your area and I/he will see this misunderstanding is corrected. You don't have to have 100% of you body behind cover while doing a reload. You do have to maintain cover as defined in the rule book though while doing a reload ie 50% of your upper body and 100% of your lower body.

You can print this reply out and use it as your confiormation if you want.

Take Care

Bob Bonenfant
 
Onagoth said:
...
I thought this was interesting, I think there is the general misconception that shooters have to be 100% behind cover while reloading.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Misconception? :D What misconception?

It's clearly stated that more than 50% of the shooter’s upper torso must be behind cover. How's that confusing?

If you were warned about cover, you simply didn't comply with the 50% upper body cover rule.

Shooters do it all the time cause their gun stops working and they're stumped out in the open for long enough to be warned about "cover". Don't blame the SO, he just saved your ass from target induced fire. :p
 
easy said:
Misconception? :D What misconception?

It's clearly stated that more than 50% of the shooter’s upper torso must be behind cover. How's that confusing?

If you were warned about cover, you simply didn't comply with the 50% upper body cover rule.
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Some folks don't connect the dots or just read over the 50% defintion. Mistakes can be made and mistakes can also be corrected.

Take Care

Bob
 
... besides, I bit of purposely induced stress makes for a more realistic match. Yes?

I think Procedural Pete should make more like a drill sergeant and yell at shooters like a blast from the past. Cover, or not. :D
 
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As Bob says call the MD and point it out in the rule book. As a SO if I make a bad call I want someone to tell me I am wrong. That is how you learn.
I can see how this happens as most of our Guys played IPSC . In IPSC if you dont reload on the move your wasting time.
In IDPA we have to be more carefull in telling them to use cover and not getting totaly behind it when reloading. All the best Ray.
 
One thing we all want to remember, we are all gentleman and no matter how a call is resolved we except it. If at the end of the day the MD makes an error it all can be resolved later through reference to the Area Contact or the AC for a ruling. All we are ever playing for is a 12 cent certificate and at the end of the day a three second penalty doesn't count much in the greater scheme of life.

Take Care

Bob
 
Most cover calls I see are either
A) ones where they are engaging multiple targets from 'cover' while slicing the pie, with no movement outside of transitioning their pistol, between engagement of targets.
B) clear foot and leg violations of cover
 
beltfed said:
Most cover calls I see are either
A) ones where they are engaging multiple targets from 'cover' while slicing the pie, with no movement outside of transitioning their pistol, between engagement of targets.
B) clear foot and leg violations of cover
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The foot/leg calls are easy on the SO. No movement of the upper body can be reflective of the course design and target placement. If the targets are close together or even stacked, it makes it a very tough call.

Sandy Wylie
 
While I agree that course design is important, in most cases a good SO can spot guys not slicing the pie right if they're positioned correctly. Having another SO as score keeper and a second set of eyes watching for cover and sequence is handy too.
 
FWIW, anytime this situation comes up, its almost always on low-cover or horizontal barricades...And the call was always because your head is sticking over top (unless your head is huge, your likely still 50%> behind cover.

And I almost never agrue about an error with an SO....its just not that important to me....I don't shoot for score, I shoot for fun and personal improvement. Score just adds a little competitive element :)

I'm just glad I saw this is the rule book, cause now I know.
 
This is part of the problem with the ?DPA's. Some calls are purely subjective, and rely on the positioning of the SO,and the ego of said individual.....who is to measure what is 50%....pretty impossible in a fluid and moving sport IMHO!

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy shooting ?DPA's, but the scoring and ruling system seems to be too subjective, to be taken seriously,if you are the competitive type!
 
7.62mm - There is really nothing subjective about cover calls as I understand the word "Subjective". You are either using cover correctly or you are not. Whether or not the SO is in position to make the call is another matter altogether.

Beltfed summed it rather consisely with his observation regarding the calls he sees at matches. This mirrors my own observatons.

I can only speak to IDPA training of SO's. Our instructors make every effort to instill in newly minted SO's the need for proper positioning on stages to ensure they are indeed in positon to make the correct call. That said, I am not so niaive as to believe all who take the course will make competant SO's or leave the class fully understanding the concept. Like any sport we have the element of human failing which most understand and accept.

When errors occur in rules interpretations such as the OP described in IDPA the remedies are rather simple and calls can easily be reversed by the SO or the MD as the case maybe. Most situations I have observed are dealt with at the end of the stage either by the SO or the MD., amicably, a credit to both our shooters and our match staff.

I should add Onagoth's observations as why he shoots IDPA are not unique in our sport. Enjoying the day, meeting knew, often life long, friends and publicly demonstrating our ineptness at our sport trumps the 12 cent certificate everytime.

Take Care

Bob
 
I am not trying to kick anyone here, the sport is what it is, the point is, the structure of the rules in IDPA, are left open to the interpretation of the SO. Like I said, give me an idea of how you can acurately measure what is 50% cover, in a dynamic shooting environment.....it is impossible.

I have seen instances at practicality every IDPA match that I have attended, of purely "Subjective" calls by SO's, that could have gone either way, depending on ones "View" of the action. Is that fair? No! But I don't put so much emphasis on the competition side of IDPA, some people do, and I think that is why some get frustrated with the sport.

I am sure most SO's are trying to do the best they can. But, ego's also come into play. I have witnessed, long time shooters able to get away with more things, because the SO doesn't, or won't call them on it. I have witnessed seasoned SO's going harder at newer shooters, and letting other long time shooters doing the same thing, skate. Like I said, the subjective nature of the rules allow for this.
There is no getting around it.
 
I don't recall ever making a cover call on 50% of the upper body as you are right it is very difficult to make and very much depends on the angle viewed.

The lower body call though is easy and where I would suggest most calls, if not all are made. With IDPA being relatively new to Canada I would hope the ego situation, where it exists, will resolve itself over time. Perfection is not always achievable and our SO's god bless them, are volunteering their time for a job that is much more complicated than that in other shooting sports. Not only do they have to watch for muzzle and finger violations but also use of cover, sequence of engagement, reloading and stage expectations ie shooting on the move all under the stress of wanting to adjudicate the shoot fairly and consistantly.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
Not only do they have to watch for muzzle and finger violations but also use of cover, sequence of engagement, reloading and stage expectations
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We try (depending on available volunteers) to use a two-person system: RO and SO. The RO is the guy up front with the timer, focusing on muzzle and finger, and SO has the scoresheet and is behind the shooter in a good position to assess cover.
 
Canuck44 said:
Enjoying the day, meeting knew, often life long, friends and publicly demonstrating our ineptness at our sport trumps the 12 cent certificate everytime.

Take Care

Bob
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Thanks for the laugh Bob, lol. I think we're about to up our level of ineptness this Sunday. I'm about to put the finishing touches on the clubs first swinger target, lol.

We have a pretty good group of guys here, all we want is to get out and enjoy a day of shooting. We could care less who wins. Sure there's a little good natured ribbing, but it's all in fun.
 
cday said:
Thanks for the laugh Bob, lol. I think we're about to up our level of ineptness this Sunday. I'm about to put the finishing touches on the clubs first swinger target, lol.

We have a pretty good group of guys here, all we want is to get out and enjoy a day of shooting. We could care less who wins. Sure there's a little good natured ribbing, but it's all in fun.
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Dear god not a swinger! Last year I actually got thru a stage with a swinger without a FTN. My misses on swingers are legendary. You should see me go after three of them! It truy is a sight to behold. I look like a grandfather clock on steroids.

Take Care

Bob
 
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