You never shot at CFSAC during their pistol courses then because we used it 2007 and as far as I know it is still used there. So much for "just civie talk and crap". The Connaught ranges were cold ranges for the shoot as well.
Take Care
Bob
Using the slide stop to drop the slide on an empty chamber (IPSC Global Village)
- Thread starter Wendell
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You never shot at CFSAC during their pistol courses then because we used it 2007 and as far as I know it is still used there. So much for "just civie talk and crap". The Connaught ranges were cold ranges for the shoot as well.
Take Care
Bob
I agree, TDC needs to open a canadian shooting school, or at least write all this down and publish it.
Yep, I said that, WITH CONDITIONS.
You do realize that EVERY time you fire your gun, the slide slams back into battery with your finger STILL pulling the trigger? Do you expect it to continue firing? So what is the difference with pulling the trigger when dropping the slide? Aren't you still doing it in a safe direction?
The technique is actually GOOD TO KNOW, not necessarily to use because it is politically incorrect. And EXACTLY as TDC was saying, there is nothing wrong with a "hot" range (except politics/policy) if you are safe. So following that logic what is wrong with dropping the slide with your finger on the trigger?
Also, if you end up with a broken gun (semi auto rifle included) it is a technique that can be used to PREVENT NDs.
As for the training, it was actually standard practice for shooting target guns 40 years ago (way before action shooting). And as relliot said, there is a big difference between modified guns and "stock" guns. Yes you can beat the c**p out of a stock gun, including a stock/GI 1911. But how many stock guns have 2 lb triggers with a 4mm reset travel?
Yet my gun is extremely reliable and very, accurate. I can put a couple thousand full power 40 S&W rounds through it without cleaning or many, many thousands without a single jam/stoppage. I expect to do trigger and tune up work on it every 25 to 50k or so, provided the slide isn't dropped too many times on an empty chamber, damaging the sear/hooks.
Tuned guns don't always mean fragile or unreliable.
And I wouldn't use that particular gun as a carry gun, no more than you would use a Porsche as a delivery van, even though you could. Just as you don't stomp the gas peddle every time on a Porsche the same way you would stomp the gas every time on a little 4 banger, even though you could, and in the end, the Porsche would still be more reliable.
Dropping the slide with your finger on the trigger is not a normal practice. Closing the action/slide is usually associated with a reload and should remain that way. Furthermore, as per fundamental rule two "Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are aligned on target AND you've made the conscious decision to fire". Unless you're reloading(or otherwise dropping the slide) with your sights on target, your finger should NOT be on the trigger. Finger on trigger working the action is bad form and promotes negligent discharges.
As for tuned guns. There's no need for such fine tuning. If you can't make solid hits with a 4lb trigger you need to focus on the fundamentals of marksmanship, not the latest trigger job. On top of that, if your pistol requires pampering or regular "work" to maintain its level of performance, its a lemon.
Easy there tiger. None of what I've posted here or elsewhere is my own creation. All of this information and logical thinking can be found at many reputable schools. I practice what I preach and I only preach what I cannot disprove.
TDC
Don't get me wrong. I agree, just pointing out a different point of view.
You are dealing in absolutes again.
In my case the pistol doesn't "require" regular work and similar guns from the same manufacturer are designed and do, go hundreds of thousands of rounds without problems or maintenance (other than cleaning). Just like most cars can go 250,000 km without any maintenance. However, the gun, just like a car, work BETTER, with a little TLC, and that in no way means it's a lemon.
Same with the light trigger. I can make very solid hits with a 4+ pound trigger. But myself and others who have tried my gun (who were excellent shots BTW) have shot WAY better with it, and even commented that they shot it better any of their own guns. They were very, very surprised that the gun/trigger combination could make that much of a difference.
(BTW the "tune up" I was referring to is simply making sure the pull weight hasn't dropped much below that 2 lb. I am not talking about a full trigger job. The tune up also includes changing out recoil springs and checking tightly fitted parts)
Nothing wrong if you prefer to drive a reliable, average performing clunker, I personally prefer a sportier model and to stay on top of the maintenance.
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Finger depressing the trigger while releasing the slide forward... isn't that just unsafe? I understand that if it's a semi pistol with traveling parts, yes after the trigger is depressed, it does engage the sear to hold the Hammer/firing assembly from driving into the firing pin again. But wasn't there another term called the "Run-Away gun"? -Though I've never had a run-away with any pistol, but I did have that experience with the C9.
So I guess yeah, every now and then I do expect my firearm to continue to fire if I put around 200 rds down range lol
SandRoad, I agree with maintaining the pistol and all the tune-ups. lol Like I say, baby that 1911!
Just like you would baby a Ferrari no harm in that. If anything makes a high performance even better.
As for the CFSAC, never have competed. Haven't heard of it until just now That's kinda cool.
I still have to say, I have NEVER heard of the command "Hammer-Down" before in my 4 years. It's always been "Make-Safe" or "Cease Fire, Unload" and there was that one time some M.Cpl from somewhere shouted "De-####" but never "Hammer-Down"
Oh and SandRoad and TDC, I agree on both of the point of views here about fine tuning and keeping it stock config.
I understand from TDC's pov to shoot the base weapon until you are familiar with it's working and bring it under your control so during such time, no tuning or any upgrading should be done on the weapon itself. TDC's pov is also base on combat situation where your life is depended on the reliability of the weapon you're using and how proficient you are with it.
So therefore, if your basic marksmanship blows, your shooting will suck as well.
The car can only perform as well as the driver driving it. (Give a F1 car to a 16 yrs old driver and he/she will most likely crash it)
Now from SandRoad's pov, where years of experience has already invested in shooting and the fun with the stock config is wearing out and would like to do even better during competition or day to day practice. Then upgrading and fine tuning is necessary and keeping this baby purrring is just enjoyment.
So Competition and perfection mindset is also valid. At the same time, you wouldn't take is baby out to combat now would you? haha
It's like a professional driver getting his own team of mechanics to work up his pride and joy. Maintenance and Tune-up.
Back to the topic of 1911 having to ease the slide forward... I'm still no big fan of it, but if it'll get you shooting better hey by all means... though shouldn't they coat the darn thing in some protective solution or paint or coating? and if you inspect it regularly and see chipping or the coating fading then change it out or re-coat the system.
It's been how many years since the 1911 came out? And they still haven't figure a fix for it?
So I guess yeah, every now and then I do expect my firearm to continue to fire if I put around 200 rds down range lol
SandRoad, I agree with maintaining the pistol and all the tune-ups. lol Like I say, baby that 1911!
Just like you would baby a Ferrari
no harm in that. If anything makes a high performance even better. As for the CFSAC, never have competed. Haven't heard of it until just now
That's kinda cool.I still have to say, I have NEVER heard of the command "Hammer-Down" before in my 4 years. It's always been "Make-Safe" or "Cease Fire, Unload" and there was that one time some M.Cpl from somewhere shouted "De-####" but never "Hammer-Down"
Oh and SandRoad and TDC, I agree on both of the point of views here about fine tuning and keeping it stock config.
I understand from TDC's pov to shoot the base weapon until you are familiar with it's working and bring it under your control so during such time, no tuning or any upgrading should be done on the weapon itself. TDC's pov is also base on combat situation where your life is depended on the reliability of the weapon you're using and how proficient you are with it.
So therefore, if your basic marksmanship blows, your shooting will suck as well.
The car can only perform as well as the driver driving it. (Give a F1 car to a 16 yrs old driver and he/she will most likely crash it)
Now from SandRoad's pov, where years of experience has already invested in shooting and the fun with the stock config is wearing out and would like to do even better during competition or day to day practice. Then upgrading and fine tuning is necessary and keeping this baby purrring is just enjoyment.
So Competition and perfection mindset is also valid. At the same time, you wouldn't take is baby out to combat now would you? haha
It's like a professional driver getting his own team of mechanics to work up his pride and joy.
Maintenance and Tune-up.Back to the topic of 1911 having to ease the slide forward... I'm still no big fan of it, but if it'll get you shooting better hey by all means... though shouldn't they coat the darn thing in some protective solution or paint or coating? and if you inspect it regularly and see chipping or the coating fading then change it out or re-coat the system.
It's been how many years since the 1911 came out? And they still haven't figure a fix for it?
SandRoad,
Great post. Your support your decision very well. Your guns are geared towards competing and I agree that pampering it more than necessary can't hurt. As for the tuned guns and parts. Why not strive for better performance with a stock gun?
TDC
Great post. Your support your decision very well. Your guns are geared towards competing and I agree that pampering it more than necessary can't hurt. As for the tuned guns and parts. Why not strive for better performance with a stock gun?
TDC
Holding the trigger down when releasing the slide is MECHANICALLY SAFER because the disconnecter is typically more robust than the sear surfaces. The unsafe part is because it is not the normal practice and WILL confuse most people.
There is a difference in the sear and disconnecter of a semi and full auto. In semi mode, a disconnecter "claw/surface" holds the hammer back until the trigger is released, and then the sear engages until the trigger is pulled. (there are many variations of this)
This is why I had previously mentioned that with a semi auto, if you have a runaway, it means the sear/hammer surfaces are not stopping the hammer when the trigger is released, so to stop a runaway, you can PULL the trigger, because that will ENGAGE the disconnecter to stop/hold the hammer (instead of the sear/hammer surfaces). Yes, it is VERY counter intuitive.
In a full auto, often it is only the disconnecter that is holding the hammer back until the bolt is in battery, and then the disconnecter lets the hammer go. The hammer and sear surfaces never touch.
A standard GI or basic model doesn't need a "fix". They are plenty durable especially if they use modern quality steel, properly manufactured and hardened/tempered parts. And you can also expect that "durable"
type of longer trigger pull and long reset distance. But that is exactly what gives it the durability.And as said by TDC, if it breaks, it IS A LEMON.
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Thank you.
Actually is it only a couple of our many guns (pistols and rifles) that are geared towards all out competition. They might get a little more pampering, as you call it, but then again, they cost MANY times more than stock guns.
The majority of our guns are stock, or have just had minor work done to them, typically smoothing any roughness in the trigger, but not changing pull weight or anything else.
Can we shoot these stock guns as well as the "tuned" guns, not usually. As for reliability, the one "tuned" 1911 referred to in the previous post is the most reliable gun I have. If it wasn't then I would also call it a LEMON.
As for practising with stock guns, yep, do that all the time. We go through more 9mm than 40, and all of our 9mm's are stock. Also a lot of our time is spent shooting 22's and most of them are also stock.
Trigger time (including dry firing) and real coaching are the important things to improving. If you are no good with a stock gun, then moving up to a tuned gun isn't going to help.
And as you mention, the most important thing to remember, is to be safe, always.
No. All that is happening is that the jarring is causing the catch that holds back the slide to "jump" and release the slide.
Do it 10,000 times, and that slide holdback catch might tend to "slip" a little more easily.
Thank you.
Actually is it only a couple of our many guns (pistols and rifles) that are geared towards all out competition. They might get a little more pampering, as you call it, but then again, they cost MANY times more than stock guns.
The majority of our guns are stock, or have just had minor work done to them, typically smoothing any roughness in the trigger, but not changing pull weight or anything else.
Can we shoot these stock guns as well as the "tuned" guns, not usually. As for reliability, the one "tuned" 1911 referred to in the previous post is the most reliable gun I have. If it wasn't then I would also call it a LEMON.
As for practising with stock guns, yep, do that all the time. We go through more 9mm than 40, and all of our 9mm's are stock. Also a lot of our time is spent shooting 22's and most of them are also stock.
Trigger time (including dry firing) and real coaching are the important things to improving. If you are no good with a stock gun, then moving up to a tuned gun isn't going to help.
And as you mention, the most important thing to remember, is to be safe, always.
The bold is what many don't seem to understand and is the basis behind my popular quote. " A hardware solution to a software problem"
Alex you don't need to hammer the magazine home like you're smashing Nazi skulls. A firm press is sufficient.
TDC
Holding the trigger down when releasing the slide is MECHANICALLY SAFER because the disconnecter is typically more robust than the sear surfaces. The unsafe part is because it is not the normal practice and WILL confuse most people.
There is a difference in the sear and disconnecter of a semi and full auto. In semi mode, a disconnecter "claw/surface" holds the hammer back until the trigger is released, and then the sear engages until the trigger is pulled. (there are many variations of this)
This is why I had previously mentioned that with a semi auto, if you have a runaway, it means the sear/hammer surfaces are not stopping the hammer when the trigger is released, so to stop a runaway, you can PULL the trigger, because that will ENGAGE the disconnecter to stop/hold the hammer (instead of the sear/hammer surfaces). Yes, it is VERY counter intuitive.
In a full auto, often it is only the disconnecter that is holding the hammer back until the bolt is in battery, and then the disconnecter lets the hammer go. The hammer and sear surfaces never touch.
A standard GI or basic model doesn't need a "fix". They are plenty durable especially if they use modern quality steel, properly manufactured and hardened/tempered parts. And you can also expect that "durable"
And as said by TDC, if it breaks, it IS A LEMON.
The dis-connector doesn't hold the hammer back actually. It "DISCONNECTS" the trigger from the sear. This occurs when the slide begins to move rearward, and pinning the trigger back keeps it disconnected while the slide cycles fully and until the trigger is released. Once the slide begins moveing forward again, the sear comes back into contact with the hammer hooks, but until pressure on the trigger is released the mechanism is still disconnected.
If a 1911 does go full auto, the sear and hammer do in fact touch; they just don't hold, often due to peening or possibly a dis-connector that is malfunctioning and not disconnecting. And that's why they are dangerous.
The idea for pinning the trigger came from the days of retro-fitting GI 1911's for target work. It was to keep the sear disconnected while feeding a live round. This is precisely what happens (by design) when the gun is deliberately fired by the way.
We are discussing two very different animals here people; combat oriented guns and purpose-built competition guns. My original statements were in response to Wendell's comments that started this string. And as I have already stated, sear bounce is unlikely to occur in a box stock 1911 with an eight pound trigger when you drop the slide on an empty chamber. If you want to do that with your own equipment go ahead. I don't want it done on my competition pistols.
Those of you who believe that highly tuned target guns are "useless," or "lemons," or "crap" are welcome to your opinions. I would however like to see this same logic applied to everything else in this world. Let's take cars for one possible comparison; how do you think base line Toyota Corrola would do against a 500 horsepower Lamboghini? Not that well? Does that mean one of the other of these cars is crap or are they simply built for different applications.
All mechanical devices will break at some point, including guns....ALL guns. The harder you use/abuse it; the sooner it will break. That's reality, and that doesn't make it a lemon.
Yes, you are absolutely correct.
I was OT and generalizing about many designs, rather than getting into specifics about 1911s, and is also why I mentioned semi auto rifles in some of the posts. Most designs have a built in "safety" to capture the hammer if the sear doesn't hold.Yes, you are absolutely correct.
Yes, the half-#### notch. Trouble is; dropping it to half-#### also peens the sear. It's nice to have it there as a back-up if the hammer slips off the sear for some reason, but done enough times it mangles the trigger.
relliott - Excellent post and analogy regarding cars. Applies to most things in life. Most folks understand the principle...some never do. Often, but not always, the more refined the tool the more it's use becomes limited to the application at hand. Seldom a tool capable of doing a myriad of tasks does any of them extremely well. We certainly see it in our shooting sports. For rapidity of accurate fire the IPSC Open has few peers but the guns weight and bulk would destract from using it as a CCW gun. Different application, different tool required.
Take Care
Bob
Take Care
Bob
so by your way of thinking TDC you should be striving for perfection in your own physical shape too then right? so you should be damn near an olympic athlete if the tone and nature of your posts were to carry over to your personal life.
the simple fact of the matter is, you play one game, and other people play other ones. your failure to understand the reasons for, and the differences in rule sets speaks volumes about your abilities and capabilities. perhaps it's time you stopped being a keyboard commando and actually put up.
the simple fact of the matter is, you play one game, and other people play other ones. your failure to understand the reasons for, and the differences in rule sets speaks volumes about your abilities and capabilities. perhaps it's time you stopped being a keyboard commando and actually put up.
For starters, round is a shape and I'm working on perfecting that. Seriously though, my physical condition is irrelevant to the conversation. The topic at hand is the practice of using the slide stop and dry firing/dropping the hammer to "show clear". The operators physical, moral, ethical, ethnic, marital status or age have zero bearing on an ignorant "rule" brought about to cater to those who cannot adhere to FOUR simple rules.
I participate in three gun matches, that is true. I don't do it to win, I do it as a means of wringing out my gear and my ability to apply the skills and tactics I've learned and practiced. I find it much more interesting when someone else sets up the COF.
I don't believe I've failed to understand the "reasons" behind ignorant rules. What I've "failed" to do is buy into the bullsh*t excuses used to validate such garbage.
I don't understand your last sentence. How would I "put up"? Did you want to meet after school by the bike racks or should we select a street and meet at high noon? If I'm such the keyboard commando and you apparently are not, why are you a moderator on this site? Based on your profile and mine, we've got nearly the same average post rate so what does that make you?? On a side note, the bolded letters above should be capitalized as they are the beginning of a sentence. Seeing how I strive for perfection(which cannot be obtained) I thought I'd let you in on your errors. Of course, when someone such as yourself attacks my belief that striving for perfection is flawed simply because I haven't obtained such status in all that I do, I have to ask. What do you strive for?
TDC
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