Using the slide stop to drop the slide on an empty chamber (IPSC Global Village)

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I was going to just step out of this but wow, I just can't believe the hostile attitude here.

TDC, what exactly is your issue? A guy posts a comment about dropping the slide on an empty chamber; a few others respond and you instantly default to leveling insults at anyone who has an opinion that differs from yours. People who actually might even know a little something about the guns in question. Just who are you to level this kind of abuse at people you know nothing about, and what makes you think it is appropriate to chuck sh*t at people just because you disagree with them? Who made you God of all that is holy about the shooting sports, and who made you the supreme judge of all that is considered reasonable or logical?

And I have to ask; what exactly is it you are training for? You talk like you are some sort of combat guru. Are you? Do you have a permit to carry a gun for self defense, or are you like 99.999% of the rest of non-military or LEO Canadians and forbidden to carry a concealed weapon? Or do you just KNOW that the Zombie invasion is imminent? Not that I care what kind of shooting you or anyone else does; fill your boots and have fun at whatever turns your crank, but why is it you think your philosophy is more valid than mine, merely because I like to compete? Hey, you don't want to try IPSC or any other form of competitive endeavor, don't. It's doubtful your bitterness will be missed in the great, international family that we all enjoy so much. But you quite clearly don't understand the international history behind the rule set. If you did, you wouldn't have made those asinine comments. Good Lord Man, you keep harping on the lack of realism in the rules. It's a SPORT! It isn't real life anymore than auto racing is real commuting, ok?

I just don't get where this is all coming from. Are you always this rude, arrogant, boorish and ignorant with people you meet in real life, or is this just something you only feel comfortable doing in the sweet, protective embrace of internet anonymity? Here's a tip; it never hurts to be polite in a debate, and you will find people pay more attention to a person who can be gracious, even in disagreement. At the very least, if you are truly the martial artist you purport to be, you would know the concept of the empty cup. Apply THAT ideal and you might just learn something new that you can use in that weird little universe you seem to live in. Simple tolerance would certainly be a valuable life skill as it applies to respectful dialogue and debate...which is what these forums are SUPPOSED to be about. Of course, your mileage may vary.
 
when a gun fires the process of the slide striping the next round out of the mag and loading it in the chamber acts like a shock absorber. So the action locks up with less impact when firing then when you drop the slide on an empty chamber. Metal slaming into metal is never a good thing on any type of machine. If you want to do it to your gear go nuts, just like if you want to slam your car doors or leave your boots on in your home go right ahead, its yours. Just have some respect for other people's guns and ease the slide forward, just like you wouldn't walk thru someone elses house with muddy boots even though you do it at your own home.
 
wow gotta love typing on a Blackberry while drunk. that spell check is awesome!

OK, home in front of a computer, so I'll try to be a little more clear.
First off I agree with the idea that a gun that can't take a slide being dropped on an empty chamber being a bit of a joke. But then again, I don't own one. However I've worked on a few, and while not to my current taste, I understand the reasoning (although I've heard arguments against the reasoning that make sense too), however the critical part is this, if it's someone else's gun, it's their rules. Full Stop, if they don't want you to, you don't. It's like slamming a car door on a Ferrari, or something, they paid good money for it, and don't want it f**ked with. Pretty simple. And really that's what we are looking at here, high end guns, tuned to the limit, to perform at break neck speeds. If I ever buy one, I'll tune it to the same level and expect it to perform at that level, that's what they are for. To criticize people for choosing these kinds of guns is beyond stupid, do you call down John Force for having a car that they need to swap the engine out of and rebuild after basically every race? I doubt it, and you do, you're a moron. Go ahead lets compare your bone stock Honda to a drag car, lets see how far that argument goes.
As for the stupidity being blown out by TDC, and I'm sorry, it really is getting lame, well if that's your boat, then stay in it. The so called fundamental 4 rules of firearms safety are wonderful and excellent, but they aren't the rules for IPSC. IPSC operates under a cold range rule, which means we need to KNOW that your firearm is unloaded, the last and final way of proving that is to pull the trigger, while under the care and control of a Range Officer. There is nothing unsafe in this action, nor does it teach bad firearms habits, if you're so stupid that you can't differentiate between a game and real life, then you have bigger problems to worry about. As for the unrealistic course of fire, round counts, etc, it's a f**king game, G A M E, same as IDPA, however to say you won't learn anything from it is just as unrealistic. There is a reason why the top IPSC shooters are also the most in demand when it comes to training top level special forces, SWAT, HRT, ERT etc, it's because they can teach how to shoot under stress, how do it fast, and how to do it accurately. if I had to choose between Rob Leatham and someone who's taken some Sig Arms courses, along with a few Tactical Response Courses, I know who I'd pick, it's the guy who actually knows what he's doing with a gun (and for you slow people, that's Rob Leatham). If you talk to people who've been in shootings AND compete in shooting sports they'll all tell you the same thing, the stress of a competition is much more than they experienced during their particular shooting. It's something that is repeated time and time again. While IPSC has it's roots in practical shooting and has kept that particular word in it's name, no one in their right mind expects it to replicate real life situations anymore, again, it's a GAME. However, again, talk to people who actually shoot people for a living (or at least train to for their jobs), and they'll mostly agree (not all certainly), that the skills they learned from IPSC are useful and important, shooting on the move, reloading on the move etc, and they have no problem sorting out which are appropriate to use depending on the situation. that's why they train, to fill their toolbox with multiple options, as no one option will cover every situation. For some of them this even means shooting IPSC as if it were real life situations, even when a stage is obviously unrealistic, and we don't care. really we don't, they are out doing what they want, within our rule set, and usually having fun doing it. Sure they might get heckled, but no more than anyone else.
Your arguments have pretty much zero validity to them TDC because you've never participated in most of things you criticize, it's that simple. You sit behind your keyboard spouting mantra you learned from a couple schools, picking and choosing the bits that suit you, and that's it. You come across worse than Gecko45 for Christ's sake, and then you get upset when called on it? Seriously dude, you need to expand your horizons a bit. You are not a tactical god, nor are you a SME on weapons. You argue with people who have real life experience (like say, umm Reaper), and again get upset when called on it. If you really want to prove you're right there is only one way to do it, sign up, not for an IPSC match we already know where that would end, but for the CF or the RCMP, or some other police agency. Then you'll at least be in a position to argue from a position of knowledge and experience.
 
TIM_COX said:
you guys have to lay off TDC, what he says is the truth.
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Some of what he says is true; some is just regurgitating flawed info from other sources.

I wouldn't be so hard on him, but his "my way or the highway" approach invites strict criticism. If a normal guy says, "I never pull the trigger on my guns unless I'm firing them", I just let it slide. But if a Glock shooter who jumps all over everyone who thinks differently than they do about guns and shooting does, then I'll point out that unless they never strip their Glock, that's not very likely.

There are a lot of people who can give you higher grade info than TDC in my opinion. And also lots people who give information that is equal parts of good and bad, but who will do it without being a ####.


I agree with some of what he has to say...he just needs to learn when to STFU and listen.
 
maurice said:
TDC<... you waste all that energy and you still get the same results,...you will not compete. There are times when people "sweep" themselves when they holster or unholster there pistol. THis is fact; especially with your ubor tactical IWB holster, or even a regular belt holster, the muzzle points at your leg.
Production division guns refer to duty type DA guns. IF you looked at Standard division you would see where the 1911's, 2011's etc. fit.

Revolver shooters compete against revolver shooters. THese are called "divisions", hence the division in the types of firearms. Hence an OPen gun with optics and comp would almost always give an advantage over a revolver with iron sights.

Ya see, you learning already. LIke all SPORTS, there are rules. Normal people follow rules to be active participants in any sport.

If you put this much effort into getting the BB course you would be once step closer to being an active member of a world recognized shooting sport. No one recognizes the shooting sport and rules of TDC.
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I apologize for the delay in this regularly scheduled program, I was busy "getting a life" to respond in a more timely fashion.

Lets start with my last post. Can you Maurice or anyone else validate the ridiculous rules and double standards put forward by IPSC??

Clearly you've spent more time running your gaming gear than practical gear. Never have I swept myself with any holster I use. Your support hand has no business being in front of the muzzle, ever. Seeing how your holster sits NEXT to your leg it is quite difficult(read near impossible) for the muzzle to be pointing at your leg. In addition, with a quality holster that covers the entire trigger guard, there is zero chance of a negligent discharge when holstered.

If production division refers to "duty type guns" then why not call it "duty or service gun" division?? Production division is misleading. I'm confused on the "standard division". What makes a pistol "standard" without being a "production" gun? Again, pointless divisions that serve no purpose.

"Revolver shooters compete against revolver shooters... Hence an OPen gun with optics and comp would almost always give an advantage over a revolver with iron sights."

What's that? You mean the revolver is an inferior dinosaur?! Who knew! That discussion is for another thread and another day. I still have to ask, why the divisions? Why not have everyone compete together and see where it all shakes out. I know my experience in a "world recognized shooting SPORT" is limited, but of the open class shooters I have competed against in three gun. There isn't one I haven't beaten with my stock gun. Again, I'm sure there are many with open guns and a fair number with stock guns that could wax my a$$ but I have yet to see the advantages offered by steel guns/single action/trigger jobs/reddots/compensators/speed holsters/45ACP/magazine bumpers/target sights/pet loads/match barrels or custom grips. I'm not saying, I'm just saying.

You're right Maurice, IPSC is a SPORT. I'm not into shooting sports, I don't game. I train. In lew of another post I will answer Slavex here as well.

I agree that some good can be obtained from the shooting SPORTS like IPSC and IDPA. Learning the fundamentals to marksmanship and how to apply them in a timely fashion can be learned along with stress inoculation. Aside from that, the rest is all about gaming. Of course reloading on the move can be a vital skill. However, doing so while exposed to a threat is a piss poor idea. As you posted Slavex, TRAINING is what determines what tool is and is not used. IPSC is not a tool, its a vehicle. No different than the snap on tool truck that goes door to door selling TOOLS. Unlike the snap on truck, the IPSC wagon sells mostly useless crap for those who use a firearm to defend life. For example, the rules I posted previously.

Speaking of vehicles. John Force is the sh*t. That guy gives some priceless interviews, especially when his car ignites or comes apart. Anyway, I will gladly call down his car. Its great, its fast, and it does what it was designed to do very well. It goes fast in a straight line on a groomed track. His car is the open division race gun. His car, and the open division race gun will never beat the honda civic or off the shelf service pistol on the street, in the real world we all call everyday life. You can't haul groceries in it, I doubt it would even start in the winter, maintenance is insane and the body is just for looks.

Much like IPSC, drag racing is just a GAME. It isn't practical, efficient or effective. Its just for fun. I'm not into fun without a purpose. If it isn't practical I don't want it. More importantly, if it isn't practical it isn't realistic and reality is what matters. When a game fails to take reality into account, it fails to be relevant in the real world. Again, the rules I posted above are some examples of where reality has been removed or prohibited.

As for getting upset. I'm far from upset. I'm confused as to why so many believe what they do but lack the knowledge to support their beliefs. Your personal ability to run your guns or run a blender make zero difference in my life and I would say I lose about zero sleep as a result. I've mentioned this in previous threads and previous posts. Could someone please point ot where I proclaim to be an expert, SME, or "tactical god"?? Why do so many feel compelled to label me as such when I've never aspired to be such?? perhaps it is an attempt to attack my character, or perhaps it is a compliment?

As for enlisting in either the CF or a police dept. How does that validate anything? Are you of the belief that what they learn/teach/preach is the most proficient and correct way of operating? If that is indeed the case, you need to remove the rose coloured glasses. As you mentioned. LE and often MIL units seek the private sector for training, not the other way around. How long did it take the CF(and other militaries) to see the benefit of an adjustable stock? How long did it take LE agencies to see the benefits of tritium sights, weapon mounted lights and automatic handguns? I'm sure some within the MIL and LE community saw the benefits of the above. The wheels of progress within these groups move slowly thanks to bureaucratic BS and personal agendas.

TDC
 
relliott said:
I was going to just step out of this but wow, I just can't believe the hostile attitude here.

TDC, what exactly is your issue? A guy posts a comment about dropping the slide on an empty chamber; a few others respond and you instantly default to leveling insults at anyone who has an opinion that differs from yours. People who actually might even know a little something about the guns in question. Just who are you to level this kind of abuse at people you know nothing about, and what makes you think it is appropriate to chuck sh*t at people just because you disagree with them? Who made you God of all that is holy about the shooting sports, and who made you the supreme judge of all that is considered reasonable or logical?

And I have to ask; what exactly is it you are training for? You talk like you are some sort of combat guru. Are you? Do you have a permit to carry a gun for self defense, or are you like 99.999% of the rest of non-military or LEO Canadians and forbidden to carry a concealed weapon? Or do you just KNOW that the Zombie invasion is imminent? Not that I care what kind of shooting you or anyone else does; fill your boots and have fun at whatever turns your crank, but why is it you think your philosophy is more valid than mine, merely because I like to compete? Hey, you don't want to try IPSC or any other form of competitive endeavor, don't. It's doubtful your bitterness will be missed in the great, international family that we all enjoy so much. But you quite clearly don't understand the international history behind the rule set. If you did, you wouldn't have made those asinine comments. Good Lord Man, you keep harping on the lack of realism in the rules. It's a SPORT! It isn't real life anymore than auto racing is real commuting, ok?

I just don't get where this is all coming from. Are you always this rude, arrogant, boorish and ignorant with people you meet in real life, or is this just something you only feel comfortable doing in the sweet, protective embrace of internet anonymity? Here's a tip; it never hurts to be polite in a debate, and you will find people pay more attention to a person who can be gracious, even in disagreement. At the very least, if you are truly the martial artist you purport to be, you would know the concept of the empty cup. Apply THAT ideal and you might just learn something new that you can use in that weird little universe you seem to live in. Simple tolerance would certainly be a valuable life skill as it applies to respectful dialogue and debate...which is what these forums are SUPPOSED to be about. Of course, your mileage may vary.
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I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm not here to sugar coat my opinions and neither should anyone else. Of course, I'm the one that is labelled the a$$hole for having such a blunt opinion when others have resorted to personal insults. I can see how I would be the villain.:rolleyes: I'm not hurling insults at anyone, atleast not directly. If someone feels offended, good for them. That is where their rights end. My posts are put out there as an opinion of mine regarding a topic. I disagree with what others post and I illustrate why. If you cannot support your side, you are either wrong or fail to understand the topic.

As for concealed carry. It is illegal to do so, it is not impossible to do so. Like the rest of the criminal code. Its only illegal if you get caught. The laws on paper have zero ability to stop you or anyone else from committing a crime. Fortunately, for many of us, the risk of punishment outweighs the so called "gain(s)" offered by many crimes. We all break the law, probably a dozen times a day or more. The difference is that many of the laws we break daily are minor or carry minimal punishment like traffic violations. The criminal element understands that paper prevents nothing, sadly the rest of the public do not. They continue to rest their faith in a system designed to react to crime not be proactive in preventing it.

I posted this above so I'll cut to the chase on this post. You're right, IPSC is a game, it is not realistic. It is this point I would like all who shoot IPSC to understand. Playing a game, has very little relevance to real world skills and tactics. Thus, ones experience in IPSC has near zero merit when discussing practical firearms and/or tactics. Like you, I have no desire to abolish, ban, or otherwise ostracize IPSC, IDPA or any other discipline. If it turns your crank then keep turning. I just wish the words PRACTICAL and DEFENSIVE were removed as neither apply.

misanthropist said:
Some of what he says is true; some is just regurgitating flawed info from other sources.

I wouldn't be so hard on him, but his "my way or the highway" approach invites strict criticism. If a normal guy says, "I never pull the trigger on my guns unless I'm firing them", I just let it slide. But if a Glock shooter who jumps all over everyone who thinks differently than they do about guns and shooting does, then I'll point out that unless they never strip their Glock, that's not very likely.

There are a lot of people who can give you higher grade info than TDC in my opinion. And also lots people who give information that is equal parts of good and bad, but who will do it without being a ####.


I agree with some of what he has to say...he just needs to learn when to STFU and listen.
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I'll address the bold above. Your attempt to quote the third rule of the fundamental four is flawed. The rule reads "Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target and you've made the CONSCIOUS decision to fire". When I field strip my Glocks, I point them at something I AM willing to destroy, and I make the CONSCIOUS decision to fire/pull the trigger. That being said, You can field strip your Glock without pulling the trigger.;)

My "approach" is not "my way or the highway". My approach is "support your side or reserve judgement." Whether you believe in what I post or not makes no difference to me. All I ask is that you(anyone and everyone) think about what you do and why you do it. Justify the gear, guns, tactics, matches, disciplines etc to yourself and no one else.

TDC

ETA: As a side note to all of this and the vast majority of my posts. It is apparent that real life experience carries with it significant weight in an argument. That being the case. Do yourself a favor. Grab the latest edition of SWAT magazine(poor name, sounds cheesy) and read the article by Pat Rogers. You know, the guy who spent most of his life with the Marine Corps(MEU SOC I believe) as well as many years as a cop in New York. The article is chock full of blunt, to the point statements. Don't take my word for it, read it for yourself. Here's a couple snippets to get your attention.

"If you're the type who is not comfortable carrying a gun in condition one(round chambered), you should question your ability to use deadly physical force against another human being."- Pat Rogers, "SWAT" magazine March issue 2010

Nothing that you can hold in your hand can be guaranteed to stop anyone with one or more shots. Eliminate the terms "stopping power" "knock down power," and "hydrostatic shock" from your internal dictionary. They do not apply to what you are carrying. However, calibers that fall between .356(.38 special/9x19mm) and .45 are usually considered to be useful.

While i have seen a lot of people turned into canoes at the city morgue as a direct result of ingesting projectiles in .22 long rifle, .25ACP, .32 and 9x17(.380), I have also seen failures to stop from .357 magnum, .45, and 7.62x51mm.- Pat Rogers 'SWAT" magazine March issue 2010
 
You profess to not be an expert, yet you feel the need to offer opinions like you are one. That's why people think you're an #######. It's pretty simple really, it might not be correct either, but that's how you come off.
as for gun games, you've chosen to play 3 gun, which has about as much realism to it as IPSC or IDPA, it's a game. The fact that you have kept track of whom you've beaten shows that you game. You could shoot any of the other games out there, do it "tactically" and maybe actually learn something in the process. There is a reason why the top draw instructors are also top level competitors, it's because they shoot.
As for the next to zero chance of shooting yourself with a "proper" holster, well that's not true, it's not the holster that causes the shot, it's usually the finger, or occasionally something getting caught in the trigger guard on insertion. the issue with M&P's and Serpas being the odd one out. I've read reports of Glocks going off when pull tabs from jackets have gotten caught in them and reports of people leaving Sigs cocked when trying to race during training, causing nice knee and leg damage as a result. And these were all duty related incidents not competition.
 
Slavex said:
You profess to not be an expert, yet you feel the need to offer opinions like you are one. That's why people think you're an a**hole. It's pretty simple really, it might not be correct either, but that's how you come off.
as for gun games, you've chosen to play 3 gun, which has about as much realism to it as IPSC or IDPA, it's a game. The fact that you have kept track of whom you've beaten shows that you game. You could shoot any of the other games out there, do it "tactically" and maybe actually learn something in the process. There is a reason why the top draw instructors are also top level competitors, it's because they shoot.
As for the next to zero chance of shooting yourself with a "proper" holster, well that's not true, it's not the holster that causes the shot, it's usually the finger, or occasionally something getting caught in the trigger guard on insertion. the issue with M&P's and Serpas being the odd one out. I've read reports of Glocks going off when pull tabs from jackets have gotten caught in them and reports of people leaving Sigs cocked when trying to race during training, causing nice knee and leg damage as a result. And these were all duty related incidents not competition.
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Based on your first line and your posts, you come across as an "expert/know it all as well". Does that make your opinion any more or less valid than mine? I state my opinion and support it with logic, something lacking in many other posts.

I shoot three gun because it involves three systems, has few rules, is cheaper than the other disciplines(gear excluded) and challenges my skills across the three systems. I don't care if I win, the competitions are an excuse to shoot. Its easy to keep track of those I've outshot when I win grand aggregate three years running.

You're right about the holster. Its the shooter who shoots himself, not the gear. As for the pull tab incident, circa CPS around 2003/2004. The official answer was "slide from frame separation". The reality is that catching a zipper pull in your holster is entirely user error and slide separation cannot cause a negligent discharge. Even if it was possible, broken slide railS(yes plural) should have been noticed during routine cleaning and maintenance of the pistol, a user responsibility.

Tim Cox,

I have not heard of the allegations surrounding Mr. Rogers credentials or the lack thereof. You do raise a good point. Regardless of who you choose to support your statements or training. Their credentials are always up for debate. Seeing how Mr. Rogers is one of the better known names in the industry and generally one that is respected, I felt it was appropriate to post his blunt beliefs and non candy coated opinions.

TDC
 
Have been reading this post for the last two weeks, and, although entertained, its come to a point where I finally have to take sides.
Firstly, gotta say that I like all CGNrs since most of my pistols have come from this site.
Would like to inteject my humble opinions. Lets face it, when it comes to the final analysis, what will we do when the real threat comes!!!!! What will make us more prepared. Is it arguing about what we percieve is practical or actually practicing for the threat situation???
Have any of you been in a situation that calls for the elimination of one's life (or safety, for that matter???)
Being from the third world, it has confronted me numerous times and the result has been, FORTUNATELY, without any loss of life. However, with some of my close friends, some of those lives are not with us anymore.
The one thing these friends of mine have in common is the discipline we have learned through constant practise through "so-called" games such as IPSC and real life army training. In my personal experience, one of the most coveted moments was a two day training course with the Mossad, specifically on the Uzi and AR16.
So TDC, if you are claiming that IPSC and other related action sports are not to your liking, I beg to disagree completely from a first hand point of view. Maybe you should go to a place where "real" threats are a way of life and not just conjecture. I guarantee you one thing, it ain't no "drag race", and believe me, there is no time for "double standards". As for Pat Roger's article, I'll read it when I find it, but having having lived through some "critical" situations beats anything on paperback.
Do I think that everyone has to be like me and must come from a "third world" country" to experince what I have??? Certainly not, but having the desire to enjoy firearms in a safe manner and gaining the tools to become prepared and mentally strong for any "critical situation" in this country is not derogatory.
IPSC provides such a venue (as well as many other organizations-BTW, I am not an IPSC member). Don't be so quick to put these groups down, as not only do their members master their techniques but moreso, congregate in an envirionment that caters to comeraderie and sharing of expertise.
Personally, I am full of gratitude for living in Canada. A country where we can all speak our minds and share our thoughts openly. Open your thoughts and share, rather than castigate organizations in the gun community. Life here is worth something, but from where I came from (and many other places in our world), human life can be like buying a Big Mac.
Would rather continue practising and honing in my skills with all groups, including yours (if it has disciplined guidelines) so lets all quit the bickering and accept each others form of supervised firearm enjoyment.
To address the OP, I recently allowed a fellow member at my local range to shoot my DWesson PW7 as he had previously allowed me to try out his Colt .45 acp. After a firing an 8 round mag (I was busy picking up brass) I turned around and he was freely putting my prized piece throught numerous "dry" slide releases (why, I will never know). Obviously this upset me and eventually I had to replace the sear (gun was tuned for a 2 lb. trigger pull). Did I get pissed off, no! It was my fault for not letting him know what my personal criterea was for my handguns.
All of us have different reasons for having guns and if we want them tuned, why not??? I have other pistols which I will never have tuned (SigPro 2022). Why, that one will most probably be my carry piece if Canada ever allows CCW.
Open your mind man. Allow others to enjoy guns in any way they legally can and at the same time create new friends and learn new skills in the process. Have a nice day and happy shooting to all!!!!!!
 
TDC said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm not here to sugar coat my opinions and neither should anyone else. Of course, I'm the one that is labelled the a$$hole for having such a blunt opinion when others have resorted to personal insults. I can see how I would be the villain.:rolleyes: I'm not hurling insults at anyone, atleast not directly. If someone feels offended, good for them. That is where their rights end. My posts are put out there as an opinion of mine regarding a topic. I disagree with what others post and I illustrate why. If you cannot support your side, you are either wrong or fail to understand the topic.
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Well it's pretty clear to me who's not getting what here.

As I have already said; I don't care what type of shooting a person is interested in. I don't care what games or philosophy you follow just so long as you are safe. IPSC, IDPA, plinking, sporting clays, long rage rifle, trap, skeet, bullseye....whatever. As long as people are shooting and having fun, I'm happy.

What I have an issue with is your rudeness. It is one thing to, as you say, "sugar coat an opinion;" it is quite another to be deliberately rude to people for no good reason and and then turn around and blame them when they take offense for "not understanding the argument." Feel free to disagree about anything you care to. Debate, discussion and exchange of information is what these forums are supposed to be for, but common RESPECT is also important. You seem to think that because I discuss an issue from a different point of view than yours that I don't understand what your point is. I understand it just fine; it's your attitude and general lack of respect for others who's opinions differ from yours that I object to. You are in fact hurling insults at people pretty much constantly. It's your standard operating procedure, apparently. You attack those who disagree with you, insult their belief systems, then accuse them of leveling insults at YOU when they get irritated with your bullying. Reread the posts in this thread in chronological order, and if you can't see that then I guess we just have a fundamental breakdown of the general rules of communication.

Note also that I personally do not automatically default to the insult position in any of my arguments. I always try my best to be civil, polite and clear in my statements. Disagreement is part of life, and there is no reason people can't be gracious in debate. As well, everything I've stated in this thread I have indeed backed up with factual information. That you keep (deliberately?) misinterpreting or not understanding it is not something I cannot control.

And you should not assume that just because I like to play a structured game with a specific rule set you don't understand that I don't comprehend the martial philosophy. You know what they say about assuming, right?

I won't even get into your discussion on illegal concealed carry other than to mention that other people besides shooting enthusiasts read these forums. You know that, don't you?
 
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TDC said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm not here to sugar coat my opinions and neither should anyone else. Of course, I'm the one that is labelled the a$$hole for having such a blunt opinion when others have resorted to personal insults. I can see how I would be the villain.:rolleyes: I'm not hurling insults at anyone, atleast not directly. If someone feels offended, good for them. That is where their rights end. My posts are put out there as an opinion of mine regarding a topic. I disagree with what others post and I illustrate why. If you cannot support your side, you are either wrong or fail to understand the topic.

As for concealed carry. It is illegal to do so, it is not impossible to do so. Like the rest of the criminal code. Its only illegal if you get caught. The laws on paper have zero ability to stop you or anyone else from committing a crime. Fortunately, for many of us, the risk of punishment outweighs the so called "gain(s)" offered by many crimes. We all break the law, probably a dozen times a day or more. The difference is that many of the laws we break daily are minor or carry minimal punishment like traffic violations. The criminal element understands that paper prevents nothing, sadly the rest of the public do not. They continue to rest their faith in a system designed to react to crime not be proactive in preventing it.

I posted this above so I'll cut to the chase on this post. You're right, IPSC is a game, it is not realistic. It is this point I would like all who shoot IPSC to understand. Playing a game, has very little relevance to real world skills and tactics. Thus, ones experience in IPSC has near zero merit when discussing practical firearms and/or tactics. Like you, I have no desire to abolish, ban, or otherwise ostracize IPSC, IDPA or any other discipline. If it turns your crank then keep turning. I just wish the words PRACTICAL and DEFENSIVE were removed as neither apply.



I'll address the bold above. Your attempt to quote the third rule of the fundamental four is flawed. The rule reads "Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target and you've made the CONSCIOUS decision to fire". When I field strip my Glocks, I point them at something I AM willing to destroy, and I make the CONSCIOUS decision to fire/pull the trigger. That being said, You can field strip your Glock without pulling the trigger.;)

My "approach" is not "my way or the highway". My approach is "support your side or reserve judgement." Whether you believe in what I post or not makes no difference to me. All I ask is that you(anyone and everyone) think about what you do and why you do it. Justify the gear, guns, tactics, matches, disciplines etc to yourself and no one else.

TDC

ETA: As a side note to all of this and the vast majority of my posts. It is apparent that real life experience carries with it significant weight in an argument. That being the case. Do yourself a favor. Grab the latest edition of SWAT magazine(poor name, sounds cheesy) and read the article by Pat Rogers. You know, the guy who spent most of his life with the Marine Corps(MEU SOC I believe) as well as many years as a cop in New York. The article is chock full of blunt, to the point statements. Don't take my word for it, read it for yourself. Here's a couple snippets to get your attention.

"If you're the type who is not comfortable carrying a gun in condition one(round chambered), you should question your ability to use deadly physical force against another human being."- Pat Rogers, "SWAT" magazine March issue 2010

Nothing that you can hold in your hand can be guaranteed to stop anyone with one or more shots. Eliminate the terms "stopping power" "knock down power," and "hydrostatic shock" from your internal dictionary. They do not apply to what you are carrying. However, calibers that fall between .356(.38 special/9x19mm) and .45 are usually considered to be useful.

While i have seen a lot of people turned into canoes at the city morgue as a direct result of ingesting projectiles in .22 long rifle, .25ACP, .32 and 9x17(.380), I have also seen failures to stop from .357 magnum, .45, and 7.62x51mm.- Pat Rogers 'SWAT" magazine March issue 2010
Click to expand...

Are you REALLY quoting Swat magazine. Your wasting time, stop eating the potatoe chips, put down that hotdog and start participating in activities with other people. :p.
You remind me of this person I met at work,....a "client",...he was an expert on everything, as he had."read many books on the subject":rolleyes:
He told us how he was an expert in Karate, and the martial arts (he again told us about all the movies he had seen and some of the books he had read). Well after we had nagged him to do a demonstration, he reluctantly decided to show us some "moves". Imagine a near blind Danny Devito dressed as the penguin trying to do a round house kick,....he nearly knocked himself out,:D,on a steel railing. The rest of my fellow employees started laughing so hard, we were crying. This went on for at least 10 minutes. My boss came out from the back and laughingly scolded us,.." well, if he knocks himself out, you guys are going to be stuck doing CPR and taking him to Health care or the hospital.:redface:

So,...perhaps I should just ask you to not hurt yourself. :redface:Who wants to explain that ####. World ofWarcraft is neat, but that does not make you an expert on warcraft.;)
 
relliott said:
Well it's pretty clear to me who's not getting what here.

As I have already said; I don't care what type of shooting a person is interested in. I don't care what games or philosophy you follow just so long as you are safe. IPSC, IDPA, plinking, sporting clays, long rage rifle, trap, skeet, bullseye....whatever. As long as people are shooting and having fun, I'm happy.

What I have an issue with is your rudeness. It is one thing to, as you say, "sugar coat an opinion;" it is quite another to be deliberately rude to people for no good reason and and then turn around and blame them when they take offense for "not understanding the argument." Feel free to disagree about anything you care to. Debate, discussion and exchange of information are what these forums are supposed to be for, but common RESPECT is also important. You seem to think that because I discuss an issue from a different point of view than yours that I don't understand what your point is. I understand it just fine; it's your attitude and general lack of respect for others who's opinions differ from yours that I object to. You are in fact hurling insults at people pretty much constantly. It's your standard operating procedure, apparently. You attack those who disagree with you, insult their belief systems, then accuse them of leveling insults at YOU when they get irritated with your bullying. Reread the posts in this thread in chronological order, and if you can't see that then I guess we just have a fundamental breakdown of the general rules of communication.

Note also that I personally do not automatically default to the insult position in any of my arguments. I always try my best to be civil, polite and clear in my statements. Disagreement is part of life, and there is no reason people can't be gracious in debate. As well, everything I've stated in this thread I have indeed backed up with factual information. That you keep (deliberately?) misinterpreting or not understanding it is not something I cannot control.

And you should not assume that just because I like to play a structured game with a specific rule set you don't understand that I don't comprehend the martial philosophy. You know what they say about assuming, right?

I won't even get into your discussion on illegal concealed carry other than to mention that other people besides shooting enthusiasts read these forums. You know that, don't you?
Click to expand...

I appreciate your mature posts, unlike Maurice below and others, you have refrained from personal attacks. I will not and have not assumed that you or anyone else fails to understand my opinion. What I have is what you folks have posted. For those who fail to support their beliefs I am left with only the conclusion that they can neither defend them or don't understand the topic. Your decision to shoot IPSC or any other discipline is one you made and for reasons only you need to justify to yourself. I'm a practical shooter and a practical kind of guy. If what I do doesn't serve a purpose I generally won't engage in said activity.

maurice said:
Are you REALLY quoting Swat magazine. Your wasting time, stop eating the potatoe chips, put down that hotdog and start participating in activities with other people. :p.
You remind me of this person I met at work,....a "client",...he was an expert on everything, as he had."read many books on the subject":rolleyes:
He told us how he was an expert in Karate, and the martial arts (he again told us about all the movies he had seen and some of the books he had read). Well after we had nagged him to do a demonstration, he reluctantly decided to show us some "moves". Imagine a near blind Danny Devito dressed as the penguin trying to do a round house kick,....he nearly knocked himself out,:D,on a steel railing. The rest of my fellow employees started laughing so hard, we were crying. This went on for at least 10 minutes. My boss came out from the back and laughingly scolded us,.." well, if he knocks himself out, you guys are going to be stuck doing CPR and taking him to Health care or the hospital.:redface:

So,...perhaps I should just ask you to not hurt yourself. :redface:Who wants to explain that s**t. World ofWarcraft is neat, but that does not make you an expert on warcraft.;)
Click to expand...

Maurice, do you have the knowledge to debate what I've posted or are you going to change directions/topic as an attempt to avoid the discussion? I quoted a trainer who as I posted is well known and generally respected. Seeing how so many on this forum seem to know what "credibility" is and associate LEO and MIL types as SME's. I figured you folks would know who Pat Rogers is. Clearly you all train frequently and attend many courses/classes offered by high speed tier one operators right??

What the f*ck is world of warcraft??? On a final note, the bold above should be you're not your.


TDC
 
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