making a shotgun chamber adapter from a chopped .22LR barrel

gunzik said:
Old pistol barrels are abundant, and are free (or extremely cheap) when they are replaced and discarded.
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And this is exactly why the rules regarding handgun barrels and pieces of such exist. When the governments "firearms experts" were making up all this foolishness, there was a huge concern over short barreled handguns, the ones they liked to refer to as Saturday Night Specials.
Because they considered these firearms to be more dangerous than toxic waste, they wanted to be sure that they removed all means of creating more. So the rules for pistol barrels were created, the fact that the same rules don't exist for rifle and shotgun barrels was just an oversight on their part. If the whole gun control program did not go off the rails I am sure they would have gotten around to "fixing" that too.



SandRoad you are probably referencing on-line material and it is far from complete and that is what is confusing you.

Think of these scenarios: You have a plumber or gasfitter that has lenghts of cast iron pipe on their truck. You could easily find a round that would fit inside one of those pipes, so are they considered barrels? How about if they cut a 3" section off of one of those pipes, have they created a short prohibited pistol barrel?

What about a hardware store that carries 2-3" pipe nipples that you could fit a round inside, are they prohibited short pistol barrels?

How about every metal shop across this country. If you went through all their tubing you will easily find several diameters that are capable of "chambering" ammo. What about all the pieces in their cutoff bins are the short ones prohibited pistol barrels?


In my shop I have 12Ga barrel blanks and heavy wall seamless tubing that look identical. Which one is a barrel and which one is just tubing? Neither one has any identifying features that stand out but both are capable of being made into a barrel. Is it simply the fact that some of them were sold to me as barrel blanks?

There has to be some way of identifying a barrel as such and that is where the definition of "being capable of chambering and discharging ammunition" comes from. This is the definition that exists in the laws and it applies only when used in the context of firearms ie: it's not a barrel if you can put a round inside a tube and discharge it with a finish nail and a hammer. The barrel has to be attached in some way to a frame or receiver that is considered a firearm. The means test will be is it a functioning critical part of a firearm.

So in the case of a chamber adapter it is not in any way attached to a frame or receiver and the firearm functions without out it. So it is nothing more than a metal tube and barrel rules don't apply.

Clear as muddy water now?:D:D
 
While it's all fun to build stuff, I prefer to buy when the product is cheaper than I can make it. Especially when it's better. I just found

http://store.dinaarms.com/12_GA_Adapters_s/1.htm

Numrich sells this product (for more than the manufacturer, plus their extra shipping costs). Dina Arms also sells direct, and for less than $30 each shipped I've ordered two. I'll post the outcome and accuracy, compared to a unit of my own manufacture. Various calibers are available, but .22 is the topic, and is the most useful and economical of the possible cartridges, especially if you use them for (indoor) range training.

Front and back views:

wgvqeq.jpg


5ppkyw.jpg


I like the idea of a floating adjustable barrel -- I'll build that into my own variation. Sounds like I'll have a few weeks to do it before these show up.

Happy machining!
 
Mudpuppy said:
SandRoad you are probably referencing on-line material and it is far from complete and that is what is confusing you.

Clear as muddy water now?:D:D
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Yep, good and muddy. The on-line material that I referenced is the actual Criminal Code of Canada........ :D plus some legal precedents.
 
tiriaq said:
None of which are relevant to a chamber insert or insert barrel.....;)
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Except

(b) a firearm that is adapted from a rifle or shotgun, whether by sawing, cutting or any other alteration, and that, as so adapted,
(i) is less than 660 mm in length, or
(ii) is 660 mm or greater in length and has a barrel less than 457 mm in length,

Is an adaptor included withing the definition of "any other alteration"? It sure does alter what that shotgun shoots. So the question is is not the adaptor itself, it is the "alteration" to the shotgun.
 
The firearm is not being altered in any way shape or form.
Subcaliber tubes are well established for shotguns - Brileys, for example - used with serious trap guns. Browning also offers them.
This is long established practice.

There is one chamber insert situation that is a legal bomb for anyone foolish enough to mess with the idea. That is using an adapter to allow conventional ammunition to be fired in a flare gun.
 
The shotgun itself is not altered by inserting a chamber adapter. Its original barrel length remains unchanged. I can't imagine it raising anyone's eyebrows, you firing something out of your unaltered full length shotgun. I wonder how well the 410 adapter works? Might be handy for shooting birds.
 
I don't agree with Mudpuppy at all. When the regs were made, the government came up with a clever way of banning 58% of all handguns in a way that more or less slipped under the radar. If they had banned all handguns there would have been much more hue and cry raised but this way most people did not notice the ban until after passed.
As to the barrels themselves, something that often seems apparent is that government regulators are relatively unknowledgeble about modifying guns and work on the presumption that they can only be modified using factory parts. While a gun is defined on the basis of its frame for example, on the FRT disc, a Win model 70 is defined on the basis of the writing on its barrel. As applies to handguns, revolvers in particular, it does not seem to occur to them that a barrel can be cut down in minutes or that a new one made from a legal length piece in perhaps 1 hour. The government seems convinced that the only way a short barreled handgun can be made is using an existing factory barrel.

cheers mooncoon
 
The techs are well aware that there are choices other than factory parts.
Because an under 105mm handgun barrel is a prohibited device under the legislation, making such a barrel would be an offence. But the newly manufactured item actually has to be a barrel, i.e. a device that can be assembled to the handgun. If the tubular object is not machined in such a manner that it can be installed in a firearm, it is not a prohibited device.
Now here is an odd twist, it was Rudy H that pointed this out: A barrel from an under 105mm handgun is a prohibited device when removed from the frame. A handgun which fires .25 or .32 caliber cartridges is a prohibited handgun. But according to the law as it is written, a .25 or .32 caliber handgun barrel (a barrel from a prohibited handgun) is a prohibited device only if it is less than 105mm in length. A longer .25 or .32 handgun barrel is not a prohibited device. Also, an under 105mm prohibited handgun can be reclassified as restricted if suitably rebarrelled, but a .25 or .32 handgun is prohibited regardless of whether is is rebarrelled in a different caliber. Its status cannot be changed.
 
Yes, the whole 12(x) thing is just a way to eleminate a large number of firearms without having to consider compensation. It is particularly irksome in that even legitimate, historically significant antiques like the little S&W tip up .22 revolvers from the 1860s are prohibited.
Much is made of doing away with the long arm registry. The whole 12(x) system is far more serious and offensive.
The whole package of firearms legislation was badly written. It could easily have been much worse, though. Fortunately the input from the Coalition, et al. was solidly founded on a fundamental ignorance of firearms.
 
SandRoad said:
Is an adaptor included withing the definition of "any other alteration"? It sure does alter what that shotgun shoots. So the question is is not the adaptor itself, it is the "alteration" to the shotgun.
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Since this conversation just keeps going round and round all I can suggest to you is to call 1 800 731-4000 and ask to speak to a Firearms Tech. Or you can e-mail them at cfp-pcaf@rcmp-grc.gc.ca send it to the attention of the Firearms Tech Dept.
 
Mudpuppy said:
Since this conversation just keeps going round and round all I can suggest to you is to call 1 800 731-4000 and ask to speak to a Firearms Tech. Or you can e-mail them at cfp-pcaf@rcmp-grc.gc.ca send it to the attention of the Firearms Tech Dept.
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That's a useless exercise, been there, done that. They almost always give the worst case scenario, meaning there is some reason it is not allowed, or simply pass it on to someone else/other department for a "formal" review, without giving you a decision.

The reason I am bringing up the questions here is because I am interested in an adaptor and am questioning the status of it.

Yes I know that sub caliber adaptors have been available as sets for shotguns etc. But this isn't quite the same because it is so short and "easily adaptable" per the regulations. I would actually be quite happy/legally comfortable if the adaptor was such that the length with the adaptor installed, from the muzzle of the adaptor to the butt was over 660 mm.
 
fingers284 said:
SandRoad, by your logic shotgun choke inserts (as plentiful as hair on a hog) would be prohib. devises.
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No, entirely different, not even close. However if you would care to explain/justify the logic behind your statement, I am all ears.

What I am talking about is the change from making a long arm go from an OAL above 660mm to potentially a rear to muzzle length below 660 mm. We already know that utilizing a non-gunsmithing type of change such as a folding stock which crosses either side of the 660mm length regulation is clearly prohibited.

If a shotgun has an OAL of over 660 mm then installing a short insert, MIGHT convert the firearm where the OAL from the "muzzle" of the adaptor to the rear of the stock is less than 660mm. And it is that change in the parts part that might be deemed prohibited.

However the more I read up on examples, it seems as though it might actually be OK, as the existing shotgun barrels will act as a "muzzle extension" to increase the total OAL, keeping it over 660 mm

So what you legally have is a long gun, with a 4" non-pistol barrel, manufactured by a LICENSED MANUFACTURER (not sure about the Licensed part but wouldn't hurt), A manufactured barrel would have to have the manufacturers name on it, just like Dlask did with his original 8.5" shotgun barrels. So it would have an OAL of more than 660 mm, and that can't be shortened to below 660 mm without gunsmithing.

BTW, I am going through this exercise (and not just :nest: ) to develop a solid and well referenced rational for explaining/defending use of these short adaptors.

Simply referring to a section of the CC doesn't really help much.
 
There is no provision for a barrel manufacturers licence. Similarly there is no requirement for a licence to make stocks, magazines, bolts, cylinders, or any firearm part other than the receiver.
Do you sincerely believe that a 50" long shotgun miraculously becomes a 25" long shotgun when 12 to 20 gauge adapter is dropped into the chamber?
 
I have three Krieghoff Semper barrel inserts that are made in Germany and designed to be used in the right barrel of a drilling. One is 12 ga / .22WMR, the other 2 are for 16 ga. and are .22 WMR and .22 Long rifle. They are about 8" long, shoot accurately, remove and install in seconds, and are legal as far as I know. Seems like a better solution than a home built, questionably legal alternative.
 
tiriaq said:
There is no provision for a barrel manufacturers licence. Similarly there is no requirement for a licence to make stocks, magazines, bolts, cylinders, or any firearm part other than the receiver.
Do you sincerely believe that a 50" long shotgun miraculously becomes a 25" long shotgun when 12 to 20 gauge adapter is dropped into the chamber?
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Don't know, you tell me.

Which is the "barrel" when you are shooting a 22LR through a 4" long 22 calibre rifled barrel/adapter inside a 28" 12 gauge shotgun barrel?
 
Chamber adapter's are NOT barrel's. They don't thread onto a frame.
I had a huge legal issue year's ago and that was one of the ruling's.
I made'em in 22,9mm,40,45 and they were fun to use. Minute of pie plate at 50 yds.
22 I made up a solid bar,dry fired a couple of time's for the indentation and drilled it thru in a drill press held in a vice that had a verticle groove milled it it.
Turn the rifled chunk down to .375, but .5 dia. for the length of the chamber so the chamber was larger then the barrel and pressed it in from the rear.
When fired it couldn't move foreward.
Center fire was easier.
 
SandRoad said:
That's a useless exercise, been there, done that. They almost always give the worst case scenario, meaning there is some reason it is not allowed, or simply pass it on to someone else/other department for a "formal" review, without giving you a decision.
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Well that has never been my experience and I deal with them on a regular basis. They may not be able to answer my questions right away but they have always got back to me with all the information I need. Sure a lot of times they told me what I wanted to do could not be done but they never gave me the run around.
I know a Chief Provincial Firearms Officer and if I felt at any time the firearms techs were giving me the run around I would have him light a fire under them pretty quick but that has never happened because the techs have done their jobs well.


SandRoad said:
Don't know, you tell me.

Which is the "barrel" when you are shooting a 22LR through a 4" long 22 calibre rifled barrel/adapter inside a 28" 12 gauge shotgun barrel?
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The 28" shotgun barrel as the ADAPTER IS NOT A BARREL.
 
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