Do you shoot your antiques?

[mooncoon]

I remain from Missouri :>) I am reminded of a shotgun blowup reported in the Double Gun Journal a year or so ago. The fellow claimed to be shooting Pyrodex. Turned out that he had stored a fast smokeless powder (red dot or similar) in the Pyrodex container then later dumped pyrodex on top. After the blow up (blew the chamber right out of the gun) a number of shells were cut open and some were loaded with straight Pyrodex, some with mixed powder and some with pure smokeless which translated to roughly a triple charge for that powder.
I can't help but wonder if that "reduced charge" actually was a case of a charge hanging up in the powder thrower then both it and the next charge both going into the next shell for a double charge. Extremely difficult to prove after the fact.

cheers Doug

 

[dixda]

Do I shoot my antiques?
Yes, but not with any regularity.
Black powder in the muzzle loaders, and AA5744 in the cartridge guns.
I've been wanting to try Trailboss to see how it works in 380 revolver, 44 Russian, and 38-55.KD

 

[Grizzlypeg]

Monday night I tried a light load of 4.0 grains of Trailboss pushing a 250 gr casts bullet in my 45 S&W Schofield. I only tried half a dozen shots. It seems to produce a light / moderate load that I will have to chronograph. Burns fairly clean with a nice smell. Accuracy was hard to judge, I was shooting too high at 20 yards. After I figured that out, I was out of ammo. I'm also going to try some 200 gr cast swc's I have with 4.0 grains of TB. Its funny powder. Sticks to plastic and metal because its so light. 4.0 grains is a little less than half full for a 45 S&W case.

 

[BUSHMAN79]

I think there is a lot of urban legend in the above posting. Semiautos will go full auto because they are dirty and "slam fire" from the firing pin being stuck forward but I have never heard of a revolver firing full auto. The guns being blown up from light smokeless charges that I have heard of, have involved small charges of slow burning powders in large volume cases. These blow ups are not replicable and are usually attributed to the powder being slow to combust and all powder grains igniting within the shell before the slug leaves and leading to a sudden pressure peak in the chamber.
I strongly suspect that handguns that blow up with smokeless are a result of either double charges or poor loading practices using loads outside the published tables
I also suspect that the photo of the SAA with the hammer at full #### and the muzzle flame is a result of a long shutter opening and a double flash or a double shutter opening. I have had photos, taken in poor light with double images; one of the gun level and one superimposed under recoil with flames out the muzzle.

cheers mooncoon

No, not urban legend. There was an article by Brian Pearce in "Handloader" magazine last year, in which he covered the full auto SAA in some detail. He was able to duplicate the conditions that caused the revolver to go F/A. I will try to dig up the article.

 

[762mm]

There's also this... the Blade Runner auto-revolver, lol! We better not talk too loud about FA SAA's or they'll join the AK family on the "banned" blacklist. Let's not forget that commies and socialists are still lurking behind every bush & corner...

ht tp://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/05/31/blade-runner-gun-sold-for-270000/

 

[dingus]

No, not urban legend. There was an article by Brian Pearce in "Handloader" magazine last year, in which he covered the full auto SAA in some detail. He was able to duplicate the conditions that caused the revolver to go F/A. I will try to dig up the article.

Thats Right my freind said it was artical in that mag he subscribes to.

I figgered it must be so as he is not the type of fellow to just make stuff up for ####s and giggles.

 

[mooncoon]

I once heard from one fellow (who used to collect a lot of milsurp) that underloaded 7.62x39 ammo can make a semi-auto SKS cycle in full auto quite easily. Supposedly if you get the powder just right, the ammo doesn't have the momentum to fully cycle the action into semi-auto mode and fires round after round all by itself.

That one is more or less the basis of a NFA defense of a full auto case about 10 or 15 years ago. The police underloaded a semi auto plus used pistol primers (because they are softer) and were able to fire the gun full auto when factory ammo functioned properly

I have to confess I did not notice that the recoil shield was missing in the description of the full auto SAA. I guess I will have to concede on that one :>(

cheers mooncoon

 

[762mm]

That one is more or less the basis of a NFA defense of a full auto case about 10 or 15 years ago. The police underloaded a semi auto plus used pistol primers (because they are softer) and were able to fire the gun full auto when factory ammo functioned properly

Interesting... I didn't know that. So I guess there might be some truth to what that fellow was saying after all. But let's face it: FA can be achieved quite easily on pretty much anything that self-cycles.

So, did the NFA win the case? From the sound of it, cops really went over the top to fake FA operation on that gun (can anyone say "falsified evidence"?)... they migh've just as well Dremeled a few notches here and there in the receiver and make it select-fire while they were at it, because that would certainly scare soccer moms even more. Another reason to buy, cherish and preserve our antiques... because if our country's "gray eminence" can get away with stunts like these, then complete confiscation can't be that hard to legally accomplish either (unless it's NOT registered, of course - how can you seize something that you don't know exists?). Another reason to push hard for C-391... it will be either now or most likely never again, in all probability.

 

[Road King]

Antique Rifle Explodes, woman's arm amputed

Thought I might post this article of an incident that happen in 2002 in the Kitchener, Ontario. Just a reminder of the hazzards of shooting antiques. I have seen x-rays of metal fatigue in gun barrels and breeches of guns that could not be seen by the naked eye. Some of these guns may be just ticking time bombs and the shooter may not be aware. I am not saying that all antiques are unsafe to shoot but all precautions need to be taken before using.


Jan. 3, 2002. 06:43 AM


Woman's arm amputated after rifle explodes

Black-powder gun sent metal flying after it ignited
Liz Monteiro
Torstar News Service


Mathew McCarthy/TORSTAR NEWS SERVICE
GUNS SEIZED: Waterloo Regional Police Sergeant Rudy Smith shows a muzzle-loading rifle similar to the one that exploded.

A 36-year-old Cambridge woman had her left arm amputated just below the elbow after an antique rifle she was holding exploded in her hand on Tuesday night.

The woman, whose name has not been released by police, was holding the black-powder rifle when it ignited and metal fragments went flying in all directions.

When Waterloo regional police arrived at the home east of Kitchener after 9 p.m., part of the woman's fingers were lying on the back porch.

Gun fragments were found imbedded in the ceiling of the back porch.

Paramedics bandaged her hand and she was taken to Grand River Hospital. She was later transferred to St. Joseph's London Health Centre, but doctors could not save her arm with reconstructive surgery.

Police removed about 20 rifles and ammunition from the home, owned by a 46-year-old man.

Some of the firearms included a .22-calibre hunting rifle, handguns and an AR-15 semi-automatic military-style rifle.

The black-powder rifle, which was 150 years old, was valued at about $3,000.

The man, who was also hurt but did not go to hospital, had purchased the rifle about five years ago and had never fired it.

Police said the man had all the proper paperwork for the firearms and had them stored in cases. But because of the accident, officers removed the guns from the home.

The woman remains in hospital and has not yet been interviewed by police.

"I would describe this guy as a responsible owner," said Waterloo Staff Sergeant Al Cassidy.

He said the man is in shock and doesn't know how the firearm went off.

His name was also not released by police.

Waterloo Sergeant Rudy Smith said the woman was visiting the man for dinner when the pair began talking about three antique rifles on the fireplace mantle. The man took one of the rifles from the mantelpiece and they both went outside on the back porch of the home.

The woman, who wore protective goggles, took the 4.5 kilogram rifle and held it while the man put some gunpowder in it.

"He was going to show her how it worked. She had never held a gun before," said Smith.

Smith added the man is unsure whether the woman pulled the trigger or whether the gunpowder caused a spark that led to the explosion.

KITCHENER-WATERLOO RECORD

Road King

 

[Grizzlypeg]

Antique rifle explodes -

Yikes, that's a terrifying and gruisome story to hear.

I'm pleased to say that 4.0 ever so carefully measured grains of Trailboss and 200 gr cast SWC bullets sound like a capgun out of a 45 Schofield revolver. I'll have to drag a chronograph out to the range next time to see what the velocity is. Surprising observation is that you see a bright white flash of light from the muzzle that isn't seen with 250 grain bullets. There is also considerably less recoil and report than the 250's. I have a feeling the powder isn't being properly utilized under these conditions (of low pressure).

 

[mooncoon]

I think the problem with the report about the antique is two or three fold. We really have no idea of what its condition was before shooting. We have no idea of how much powder nor what kind of powder was put down the barrel and we have no idea how much knowledge the owner had of antiques or of black powder shooting. Plus he unquestionably would be adjusting his statements to minimize his stupidity in the event.
As an example, I saw some photos about 1 year ago of a "cannon" that had been in this area for a while. The last owner had been advised to talk to someone who knew about shooting cannons before shooting it. However he had a friend who knew all there was to know about cannons and black powder. They used 1 lb of rifle grade Pyrodex which the friend said was the same as 1F black powder, then paper wads and large wads of dirt or mud. A long fuse, had another beer and retired what turned out to be a safe distance to watch. The gun literally opened up like a banana and split for half of its length in four strips. It turned out to be 2" electrical conduit surrounded by concrete encased in a culvert or similar.

cheers mooncoon

 

[Bittermansbro]

I shoot 'em. Not full blast hot loads or anything, just enough to hit what I want but keep the old geezers happy and healthy.

 

[Road King]

Maybe someone from the area remembers this and can shed some more light in the final out come of this incident. I presently live in the area but only for the past 3 years.

The article does leave a lot of unanswered questions.
Road King

 

[cantom]

i have 2 sniders and peabody shoot them all . black powder sub no real black powder . i want a hand gun too . i will also shoot it . if you cant shoot it ,its no good too me . just my 2 cents

Thanks again for today SCHNEIDERSAUTO!

He provided more than 10 rounds of magic "rimfire" Peabody ammo today at the club black powder shoot, it was a blast and the Peabody shot great!

And, that Shockey's Gold powder cleaned up really easy...like after one soapy patch, there was nothing at all on the patches...very clean stuff!

 

[tactical870]

I loaded up a little .43 mauser with shockeys gold but haven't tried them out yet. Although I already know I'm gonna miss the smell of real bp....

 

[SCHNEIDERSAUTO]

your not going too miss stained cases . still lots of smoke. it does smell different . you dont need too rush home after shootin your $3000 plus peabody in fear of rust

 

[Andy]

Thought I might post this article of an incident that happen in 2002 in the Kitchener, Ontario. Just a reminder of the hazzards of shooting antiques. I have seen x-rays of metal fatigue in gun barrels and breeches of guns that could not be seen by the naked eye. Some of these guns may be just ticking time bombs and the shooter may not be aware. I am not saying that all antiques are unsafe to shoot but all precautions need to be taken before using.

There are also hazards in shooting modern guns, especially if you're careless or just generally an idiot - important factors that I bet account for 99%+ of all accidents.

We have absolutely no information on the cause if the accident, so how is this article helpful? Exactly what precautions need to be taken specific to antiques, aside from the usual for all guns - i.e. an inspection, and using loads at pressures equal to or lower than for which the gun was designed?

I shoot all my antiques, although for many it's just once, as I enjoy making up the brass and the load and especially enjoy the sound of something that might not have been fired for 100 yrs barking to life. Others I fire frequently such as a Swiss Vetterli and Swedish Rolling Block that I have competed with against WWII military guns, and beaten soundly.

 

[BUSHMAN79]

Thought I might post this article of an incident that happen in 2002 in the Kitchener, Ontario. Just a reminder of the hazzards of shooting antiques. I have seen x-rays of metal fatigue in gun barrels and breeches of guns that could not be seen by the naked eye. Some of these guns may be just ticking time bombs and the shooter may not be aware. I am not saying that all antiques are unsafe to shoot but all precautions need to be taken before using.


Jan. 3, 2002. 06:43 AM


Woman's arm amputated after rifle explodes

Black-powder gun sent metal flying after it ignited
Liz Monteiro
Torstar News Service


Mathew McCarthy/TORSTAR NEWS SERVICE
GUNS SEIZED: Waterloo Regional Police Sergeant Rudy Smith shows a muzzle-loading rifle similar to the one that exploded.

A 36-year-old Cambridge woman had her left arm amputated just below the elbow after an antique rifle she was holding exploded in her hand on Tuesday night.

The woman, whose name has not been released by police, was holding the black-powder rifle when it ignited and metal fragments went flying in all directions.

When Waterloo regional police arrived at the home east of Kitchener after 9 p.m., part of the woman's fingers were lying on the back porch.

Gun fragments were found imbedded in the ceiling of the back porch.

Paramedics bandaged her hand and she was taken to Grand River Hospital. She was later transferred to St. Joseph's London Health Centre, but doctors could not save her arm with reconstructive surgery.

Police removed about 20 rifles and ammunition from the home, owned by a 46-year-old man.

Some of the firearms included a .22-calibre hunting rifle, handguns and an AR-15 semi-automatic military-style rifle.

The black-powder rifle, which was 150 years old, was valued at about $3,000.

The man, who was also hurt but did not go to hospital, had purchased the rifle about five years ago and had never fired it.

Police said the man had all the proper paperwork for the firearms and had them stored in cases. But because of the accident, officers removed the guns from the home.

The woman remains in hospital and has not yet been interviewed by police.

"I would describe this guy as a responsible owner," said Waterloo Staff Sergeant Al Cassidy.

He said the man is in shock and doesn't know how the firearm went off.

His name was also not released by police.

Waterloo Sergeant Rudy Smith said the woman was visiting the man for dinner when the pair began talking about three antique rifles on the fireplace mantle. The man took one of the rifles from the mantelpiece and they both went outside on the back porch of the home.

The woman, who wore protective goggles, took the 4.5 kilogram rifle and held it while the man put some gunpowder in it.

"He was going to show her how it worked. She had never held a gun before," said Smith.

Smith added the man is unsure whether the woman pulled the trigger or whether the gunpowder caused a spark that led to the explosion.

KITCHENER-WATERLOO RECORD

Road King

Makes you wonder if he filled it up with Bullseye. Did anybody else catch the news story on one of the US channels several years back, where the two guys blew up their muzzle loaders? They thought that any powder that was black was good to use in them, and the first guy burst his barrel. The second guy tried some of the powder in his rifle, to see if the powder was the problem. They were warning people to be careful of what you load your rifle with.

 

[41 Colt]

Makes you wonder if he filled it up with Bullseye. Did anybody else catch the news story on one of the US channels several years back, where the two guys blew up their muzzle loaders? They thought that any powder that was black was good to use in them, and the first guy burst his barrel. The second guy tried some of the powder in his rifle, to see if the powder was the problem. They were warning people to be careful of what you load your rifle with.

There was also one local to me where a young man blew his hand off ringing in the new year with his muzzle loader.

 

[41 Colt]

Here's a question in relation to the article and the other event of the man who blew his hand off: Is an old muzzle loader, properly loaded up with the correct amount of blackpowder, capable of taking your hand off or doing that amount of damage if it failed?