Question about C7

[CFSAC or other service rifle competition,both of which have no bearing on combat.[/QUOTE]


Surely you arent implying that marksmanship skills learned on a flat range, by 031's or any trade for that matter, during peace time, are no longer relevant in combat...
 
Slings create poor weapons handling. We used to tape up the sling swivel.
only use..jumping and rapelling.
kinky sling wrapping around your forearm is very homo-erotic, i always though. A natural progression would be leather chaps with no panties.
 
long bow said:
[CFSAC or other service rifle competition,both of which have no bearing on combat.
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Surely you arent implying that marksmanship skills learned on a flat range, by 031's or any trade for that matter, during peace time, are no longer relevant in combat...[/QUOTE]

Not in all cases, seldom did I ever encounter a time when the bad guys were being engaged that I found myself on a nice mound with wind flags, range indicators, and birds chirping. Flat ranges are good to teach basic skills nothing else, we do field firing to teach the real bread and butter of marksmanship. being able to shoot at unknown distances,during fire and movement, under stress, and at moving targets are the true skills that give an edge in combat. Yes it would be nice if the enemy came at us in nice neat rows over a manicured lawn with 00m range markers, but it just isn't so. Advanced shooting skills keep you alive,not slow fire from a static position.
 
jamiejaf said:
Slings create poor weapons handling. We used to tape up the sling swivel.
only use..jumping and rapelling.
kinky sling wrapping around your forearm is very homo-erotic, i always though. A natural progression would be leather chaps with no panties.
Click to expand...

A properly designed and user sling does not create poor weapons handling skills, ####ty NCO's do. The sling is a vital piece of equipment, and allow the rifleman to do tasks while still retaining his weapon. If your primary weapon goes down and a transition to a secondary is required, or an LMG Gunner is killed and his weapon is grabbed by a rifle man, what do they do with their rifle? Throw it away? Who ever told you to tape up the sling swivels is an idiot.
 
Reaper, words of wisdom. On course we weren't permitted to use slings during our normal day, only in the field, with the idea being to teach people to carry their weapon properly. But in the field and since course we always use the sling, keep it on you but of the way when you need your hands, or when moving about carrying stuff, etc.

My introduction to firearms was from the military, and I've never used a sling as a shooting aid or seen it as one, only saw them as being a tool to help carry your weapon, something that frankly I don't think the standard issue sling does a good job of anyway, at least not for me.
 
Reaper..
you dont get it....and I dont think you will. With all this combat experiance you speak of, and no need to teach basic marksmanship skills on conventional ranges, perhaps you should talk to INT or the RQ and draw yourself an AK as clearly you cant benefit from the intristic accurracy capabilities of the C-7. Sounds like you didnt make the cut to make the rifle team..:p
All in good humour ol dog....
Not all battles are FIBUA or MOUT...there will come a time when you may be called apon to engage at extended distances(without mortar support)..and the skills learned on a conventional range will come in handy..thats all..
Oh ya..I dont ever recall hearing birds chirping on any ranges I shot on..sure you werent paintballing??
 
long bow said:
He uses a sling..no question, not an issue...and of late, he uses a standard grade Armalite AR 15 Hbar, and it is NOT freefloated..for these last couple years..but he has in the past used a DPMS Sweet 16 and it is free floated.
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My apologies, when I met him in '06 he was using a free floated stainless 16" with an Elcan I believe.

You say that he uses an HBAR now? That might be why he has no issues using a sling, those HBARs are beasts and I'm sure you'd have to be reefing on it pretty good to put any real stress on the barrel.

Either way I personally don't "sling up" while shooting. I believe that with a skinny service barrel it may induce flex but aside from that I wouldn't sling up overseas so I don't do it while shooting service rifle. That way I won't develop any bad habits for myself. I certainly don't begrudge those that do though.

I do consider a decent sling to be mandatory equipment on a fighting rifle for the same reasons stated by Reaper, not as aid to shooting. I too prefer a quick adjust two point but I use a Boonie Packer.
 
I read all posts related to the use of a sling.

How can one talk about a sling when they have never used one? Second or third hand knowledge, BS, get out and use a sling. Use it for what you require it for.

Can you parachute with your carbine and not use a sling? When you transition to your secondary do you just drop the carbine and use your pistol? Try shooting in the prone at a confirmed target more than 700m away, a sling will aid the stability of the weapon. You just have to know how to correctly use one. Don't knock it until you try it.

CQB, use a sling that won 't cause you to waste time fixing a stoppage, a reload, whatever... Close range, it won't help your shot placement.

Slings do have their uses.

A sling is a tool. We give you a tool box, use what you need to do the job.
 
USRanger85 said:
I read all posts related to the use of a sling.

How can one talk about a sling when they have never used one? Second or third hand knowledge, BS, get out and use a sling. Use it for what you require it for.

Can you parachute with your carbine and not use a sling? When you transition to your secondary do you just drop the carbine and use your pistol? Try shooting in the prone at a confirmed target more than 700m away, a sling will aid the stability of the weapon. You just have to know how to correctly use one. Don't knock it until you try it.

CQB, use a sling that won 't cause you to waste time fixing a stoppage, a reload, whatever... Close range, it won't help your shot placement.

Slings do have their uses.

A sling is a tool. We give you a tool box, use what you need to do the job.
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There you have it boys...well said..and no armchair BS.

remember this..you dont miss cause you are to close...
 
long bow said:
Reaper..
you dont get it....and I dont think you will. With all this combat experiance you speak of, and no need to teach basic marksmanship skills on conventional ranges, perhaps you should talk to INT or the RQ and draw yourself an AK as clearly you cant benefit from the intristic accurracy capabilities of the C-7. Sounds like you didnt make the cut to make the rifle team..:p
All in good humour ol dog....
Not all battles are FIBUA or MOUT...there will come a time when you may be called apon to engage at extended distances(without mortar support)..and the skills learned on a conventional range will come in handy..thats all..
Oh ya..I dont ever recall hearing birds chirping on any ranges I shot on..sure you werent paintballing??
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I never said that square ranges aren't good for teaching the basics,they have a place but shouldn't be the prime focus, reading skills are required for intelligent debate ol dog.
I agree not all battles are FIBUA ,not sure where that came from as again, not my words. What I did say is our troops have to become expert in engaging moving targets at unknown distance ranges, which cannot be done on a flat range.
So if you are done misquoting me and making sad attempts at sarcasm can we move on here?
 
Reaper said:
What I did say is our troops have to become expert in engaging moving targets at unknown distance ranges, which cannot be done on a flat range.
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I agree, being able to hit a "real" target is the goal. However, I am sure we can both agree that poor marksmanship does not get better under stress.
 
Hey Bud...wasn't trying to be sarcastic...just adding a little humour to something that seems pretty clear.
I agree with most of your take...and also know that the hardest thing to get good at is range estimation. No argument. There had been several ref's to "gunfighter" training..so I guess with my FIBUA comment, it was a blanket response..Sorry bout that..wasnt directed at you per say. I must admit though..the matches that are currently fielded at CFSAC, lack on the unknown distance element..However....they have fire and movement, tight timings..(causes duress)
All firing positions...MOVING TARGETS, fired at from all pos'ns, at all distances.mandatory mag changes..so I'll stick to my belief that it still is a pretty good training vehicle..
Anyhow...this thread is way off track from the original poster's inquiry into sling use..I hope he is satisfied with some of the responses..the under lying thought is..common sense = survivabilty..
 
long bow said:
Hey Bud...wasn't trying to be sarcastic...just adding a little humour to something that seems pretty clear.
I agree with most of your take...and also know that the hardest thing to get good at is range estimation. No argument. There had been several ref's to "gunfighter" training..so I guess with my FIBUA comment, it was a blanket response..Sorry bout that..wasnt directed at you per say. I must admit though..the matches that are currently fielded at CFSAC, lack on the unknown distance element..However....they have fire and movement, tight timings..(causes duress)
All firing positions...MOVING TARGETS, fired at from all pos'ns, at all distances.mandatory mag changes..so I'll stick to my belief that it still is a pretty good training vehicle..
Anyhow...this thread is way off track from the original poster's inquiry into sling use..I hope he is satisfied with some of the responses..the under lying thought is..common sense = survivabilty..
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No problem,sorry if I took it out of context. CFSAC is anything but a training venue as it is limited to small groups and individuals that get extra time to practice the very matches they intend to shoot no stress there at all.. At no time during CFSAC did I ever fell any sort of duress,well I do get pissed off at the prima donna shooters that are a cancer at the event, I don't bother with it anymore as the politics and general goofiness of the event has turned me off.
 
I've been to CFSAC twice. It's helped my rifle skill to a level beyond what I was being taught in hurried classroom courses at the Reserve level, and beyond what is typically possible given the extremely condensed and hurried nature of our Infantry Officer training courses.

CFSAC gave me the chance to prone out with an excellent shot who taught me the nuances of the C79 scope and some simple and practical ways to get accuracy beyond what you're expected in PWT3. I've yet to do the CF Gunfighter course, btw. Still, after an hour of one-on-one coaching, i was getting headshots at 500m with some wicked crosswinds, something I never thought i'd ever do, and something i was never taught how to do through the usual CF training mill.

I didn't use the sling for those prone shots, either. We tended to prefer the magazine resting on the ground as a sort of impromptu mono-pod support. No feeding issues to speak of - as I understand it, that's a holdover from FN days where the FN mag would actually fail to feed properly, but this isn't a problem with the C7 magazine. Someone can feel free to correct me if i'm wrong on that, as I'm certain there are others who have more knowledge than I.

As for Combat Pistol matches, I improvised the best I could with the issue sling system. Instead of using the front sling swivel, I jury-rigged the forward end of the sling to cover the delta ring (the part you press down on to remove the handguards), and this worked well-ish. I'm sure a 3rd-party sling would easily be better, but honestly I haven't spent that much time trying other options out.

I also didn't use the issue 84-pattern or Bianchi holsters for those matches, either. I stuck with a Blackhawk Serpa holster, and it's worked well for me. I never scored that high in the CP matches, but I never intended to. I didn't 'game' my way through, as some did. I went slow, and tried to take it seriously, not so much for score. I felt I learned more doing it this way. I digress, but those are my 0.02.

Pat
 
And that coaching you got for CFSAC should be something incorporated into training, teaching us how to use our sights, etc, as well as the stuff Reaper mentioned. For reservists (myself being one of the newer trained privates in my unit) I see, along with many others, plenty of time being given to things that aren't as critical, or to such things as drill and parades, but time spent learning the nuances of our weapons and developing our ability to actually fight with our guns isn't a big priority it seems. IBTS was something of a joke, given how much time we spent on the range, compared to how little was actually accomplished. We could have gotten all of it done in a third of the time, and assigned people with the knowledge and experience on the C7 to teach and properly coach others, instead there was a lot of time wasted on absolutely nothing and lots of time spent standing around.

During the training courses themselves there's definately opportunities to spend more time on dry fire drills, weapon drills in general, and live fire. We seem to have plenty of blanks, but only put a handful of live rounds downrange. My DP1 staff were great people, many recently returned from Afghanistan, who took the time to run us through extra house clearing, gunfighter, and when we had free time practice mag changes and a course competition to see who could change mags fastest, all stuff that was in addition to our normal training whenever we had some free time.

As for regular reserve training, I've often wondered why we don't just cancel a pair of parade nights every few months and instead spend a full day, on say a saturday, doing weapon drills, dry fire practice, practice range estimation, and put the SAT trainer to good use.
 
Reaper said:
No problem,sorry if I took it out of context. CFSAC is anything but a training venue as it is limited to small groups and individuals that get extra time to practice the very matches they intend to shoot no stress there at all.. At no time during CFSAC did I ever fell any sort of duress,well I do get pissed off at the prima donna shooters that are a cancer at the event, I don't bother with it anymore as the politics and general goofiness of the event has turned me off.
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When were you last there?
 
Reaper said:
As a shooter, not since 94/95, been involved with various teams and acted as range staff on several occasions since then.
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15 years ago,, the CFSAC you know hasn't existed for 8 years. The CFSAC of 4 years ago (Post Pause), was not like the CFSAC of the last two years (Post NSCC Split). The CFSAC of this year will be unlike any of the previous.
 
Gunnerlove said:
Storing furniture is the best use I can think of at the moment.
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I take it then that the SAT trainer isn't a very good training aid? I only used it once, briefly, with the C8, but I figured it would make a good training for reinforcing some of the marksmanship principles given the relative lack of live fire training we get.
 
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