90gr Berger VLD and the 223 - 500m Group 1 1/16"X 1/8" see post 357

Well, speed is what I got :)

Loaded some Varget and headed out this am in sub zero weather. Actually, cold is not a bad thing if unsure how 'hot' a load is going to be.

First shots over the screen used 24.6gr and 2800fps -YES!!!!

Crap for a group but at least I know that reaching the 2800fps is not going to be a chore.

24.8gr better groups and 2800+fps.

25.0gr 2830, 2832, 2828fps into a nice 1/2" 3 rd triangle at 200yds. That's what I am talking about. Cases extracted no problem and no flattened primers.

continued up and even reached 2925fps with no serious pressure signs but groups were all over the page. I could have gone higher in powder but didn't think groups were going to improve and I didn't think these groups would tolerate use in the hot weather.

As others have found 2800fps is the node for this bullet in a 7 twist out of a 223. This bullet is very easy to tune.

Varget is a viable powder if you have a barrel that will not make speed with H4350.

I am still shy on N550 because of availability, cost and more importantly, concerns about temp stability. I have used alot of Hodgdon powders over the years and they do very well over a broad range of ambient temp.

Now a bit more testing on a warmer day to reconfirm the data, then onto the 22/250. will also have to look at vertical at 1000yds.

I am very happy to also find a combo that will push these 90gr VLD's to 2800fps. This makes the 223 a real threat to the 308 at LR.

For those who haven't run the numbers, the G7 BC of the 90gr VLD is equal to a 185gr VLD 30cal Berger.

What are the odds that a 308 can push this slug to 2800fps?

A 155gr VLD at 3000fps is not even close.

Jerry
 
Great results Jerry you e/s was very impressive, I never thought varget would get the 90s to speeds you have achived, many fellows at range where blowing primers with 80gr VLD bergers and Amaxs with 25.4gr of varget. but the Savages and Remington actions seem to all have large holes in bolt face and primers flowing around firing pin.
Your action must have a tight fitting firing pin,\.
keep up the good work maybe we will make the .308 guys taking notice of these fast twist 224s
manitou
 
manitou210, I am shooting one of those sloppy firing pin Savages. This is a prefit 28" 7 twist McGowen that I lengthened the throat on. I actually like the slightly larger firing pin hole as it gives me a very predictable way of looking at pressures.

Despite the cold weather, pressures would have shown up so THIS barrel definitely likes to go fast. From the muzzle pattern it might even be a 4 land barrel???? Will have to ask McGowen next week. Kind of neat.

First clue was slow speeds with H4350. Another shooter is using a Krieger and getting 2800+fps using H4350 and the powder weight was similar to mine. So I would have to conclude that my barrel needs more/faster boot to get the bullet moving.

Those shooters that were blowing primers might find H4350 to give them the pressure curve to better suit their barrel. I have found this powder to shoot very well in a bunch of 223's, just really slow. But if you have a tight barrel, might just be what is needed to keep pressures in check?????

With a long throat, there is plenty of room for almost 27gr of H4350 in a Win case. That is alot of fuel to make exciting things happen.

Varget is definitely working in this barrel. It was pretty windy so I didn't pay much attention to group size but it was pretty lousy at 2900 and faster but it would be worth investigating later.

Wouldn't it be a hoot to get accurate 3000fps out of a 223 without blowing yourself to kingdom come?

So we have 3 powders that will make this bullet perform - Varget, N550, and H4350. A nice range of powders to suit the quirks of each barrel. That is great as I hate it when only one powder seems to work. Indicates a set up that is right on a razors edge and any change will likely lead to poor performance.

As for the 308 shooters, best way to impress them is to put holes in paper and compare scores.

In fact, if you compare the ballistics, this 223 going 2830fps BEATS the common 6mm 105gr Berger VLD load from a 6BR (most run around 2850fps).

Now that'll get heads turning...

Jerry
 
By the above results that manitou posted, RE15 seems to be in the game as well. If N550 gives too much ES, seeing as how they are listed as almost identical burn rate, would N150 be a better choice? (single vs double base I assume is the difference?)

I have a feeling no matter how many numbers get thrown out there, there are still going to be those that don't believe it is possible. Ohh well, more prizes for those that do :D
Well, I guess I have to figure out how to shoot first...
 
The 6PPC was a radical departure from the norms of its day. Cases like the 222R were doing just find cutting 1/4 min groups and the PPC was looked as an interesting oddity.

Until, it started kicking everyone's butt.

Now it is a gold standard for SR BR. But then something new might come along....

With the any bullet rule in Cdn F (F) - now the F TR, the smaller 223 can flex its muscle. Boils down to ballistics vs recoil and the 90gr Berger has the ballistics part down.

Now for 223 shooters to get their rigs shooting well enough to start posting good scores and winning.

There are already many top tier 308 shooters very interested in the 223/90VLD concept. Recoil is no fun and never made anyone shoot better. With equal or lesser ballistics, shooters would rather deal with the recoil. With better ballistics and some proven/repeatable receipes, why would anyone stay with the 308?

Nothing moves competition faster then success...

Jerry
 
Here some results using the non VLD 90gr. Berger in my 22-250 1-8 Gaillard bbl.So far I have just tried H4831SC with the bullets touching the lands.I started at 34grs worked my way up to 39.0grs and got 3113fps,SD. 12.64 2.5" group.So not to good a start I will try a couple of different powders and seating depths.But it does not look too promiseing ,this rifle is a solid half minute rifle with 75grAMAX,s.Minus 29 here today too cold for further testing today.
 
matdan2, could be that the twist is not fast enough????

had a chat with Bryan Litz and others on this. The 90's are right on the line with the 8 twist. I have made the VLD's shoot from my 8 twist at lower velocities but it was at a higher elevation in the summer.

The thought is that higher air density, humidity may be enough to make these spears unstable without a 7 twist. The data is still pretty thin as this is a fairly new concept with not a lot of testing yet.

Can you try shooting further?

So far my 223 in a 7 twist has no issues stabilizing these bullets. I hope to get to my 22/250 7 twist by this weekend and see what it will do.

I am excited about you data on using H4831SC. That was the combo that I will be testing and the velocities are right inline with my goals. Hopefully, they will shoot better.

Will let you know...

Jerry
 
Jerry its supposed to be warmer tomorrow I,ll try the same load at 300yds and try some with a bit more bullet jump.If I have time I will try R19 and 4350 as well.
 
matdan2, what was the air temperature on the day that you shot, and what is the elevation of the range (feet above sea level)? What kind (manufacturer) is your 1-8" barrel?

Jerry, what was the air temp, elevation, barrel and muzzle velocity that you used successfully for your 1-8" shooting?

(might as well take a crack as to whether air density can be definitely ruled out, or not)

matdan2, stability is usually "all or nothing", it's the difference between sub-MOA groups versus not being able to shoot your shots inside a foot at 100. If you are *right( on the edge, then shooting in air that is a mere 5C warmer ought to give you a night-and-day improvement.
 
rnbra-shooter said:
Jerry, what was the air temp, elevation, barrel and muzzle velocity that you used successfully for your 1-8" shooting?

(might as well take a crack as to whether air density can be definitely ruled out, or not)

.
Click to expand...

I don't have any info beyond this. Summerland, ambient temp about 25C. I didn't bother keeping any other info.

Also, what is the true twist of our rifles. There is some variation when a barrel is made so maybe I have a fast 8 twist and matdan2 a slow one?????

I am now using 7 twist just to make sure gyroscopic stability is not an issue.

Jerry
 
Some interesting results here.

As far as I can tell, we have two observations. I've run the parameters through Litz's program, and here are the Muill Stability factors that it produces:

Jerry: .223 @ 2680fps, bullet=Berger 90 VLD (1.263" long), barrel is 1-8:" twist Shilen, temp=25C (or 77F), elevation=600m/2000' (so I used pressure=27.92"Hg), I used humidity=50%. Calculated Miller Stability factor=1.11. Observation: stable at 1200 yards


matdan2: .22-250@3113fps, bullet=Berger 90 VLD (1.263" long), barrel is 1-8" twist Gaillard, temp=-9C (or 16F), elevation=1400ASL (so I used pressure=28.52"Hg), I used humidity=50%. Calculated Miller Stability factor=1.02. Observation: 2.5" group at 100


Now the Miller Stability Factor is an empirical formula, so it will not be exactly correct; if it were, then <1.00 would be unstable, and >=1.00 would be stable. We need to interpret the results that we are getting.

It would seem to me that a Miller Stablity factor of 1.11 is stable for the Berger 90 VLD, but 1.02 is perhaps right on the ragged edge.

What if matdan2 were to shoot again when it is warmer?

temp=-9C or 16F, stability factor=1.02
temp=-4C or 25F, stability factor=1.03
temp=0C or 32F, stability factor=1.05

It may well be that somewhere between -5C and 0C, that this load will come together and shoot sub-MOA at 100.

Or if matdan2 could shoot at a range at 2400' ASL and 0C, that would almost certainly do the trick (stability factor=1.09)

Or if matdan2 can get a warmer day, say 10C on his home range of 1400', he'd have a stability factor of 1.09

Or with a 1:7.7" twist barrel, matdan2 could shoot in -9C(16F) at 1400', and have a stability factor of 1.10, which would almost certainly work.
 
Thanks so much for crunching the numbers and posting them.

Wow, talk about walking the thin line. Pity there is too much snow to get up into the hills to see if the lower temp and higher humidity will make my 223 load crash.

If it did, we would have a great baseline for min stability. If it didn't, likely the barrel is not a true 8 but a smidge faster which is also great info to have.

For now, a 7 twist is a sure thing. I think there are a few 7.7's testing and look forward to seeing how that does through the season.

For those heading up to RATON in a few years, this will definitely fly in the higher altitude.

I am hoping that those that are reading this and having problems also post their results. We need to know both good and bad so a better understanding of needed conditions can be made.

Jerry
 
22/250 - love it

Put on my second McGowen barrel. This time a 22/250, 7 twist, 28"

With a guesstimate fireforming load, bullet 2 and 3 went into the same hole at 100yds. The next load up did the same thing. Very promising so far.

Took it out to 200yds today over the chronie. Thinking 5C or so. Light gusty winds, damp (just rained), cloudy. Pretty good conditions.

Using H4831SC, CCI BR2, Win cases with basic prep but no neck turning yet (getting lasy), 90gr Berger VLD just off the lands. The chamber provided will actually work with these VLDs without any work to the throat - that's nice.

The start loads from last time was 37gr and 37.5gr. Vel of the 37gr was only 2900fps so I didn't bother shooting the 37.5gr. too slow.

Started at 39.5gr with just under 3100fps and a decent 1.5" triangle.

39.8gr broke 3100fps with two 1/2" apart and another off to the left 1".

40.0gr was 3123, 3116, 3116. First two touched. Pulled the third left with a gust coming through going left. Bullet landed 1" from the first two. however, there was zero vertical. Will retest this load for sure.

40.3gr gave 3155, 3150, 3158fps for a nice 3/4" triangle - not bad but definitely on the high side of the node. Slight pressure signs showing.

Will retest the 40gr load and hopefully, the bullets will snuggle together.

Speed is definitely in the interesting range. I was hoping for 3150fps so we are close. Pressure is definitely not hot at this speed so should make a nice overall load.

Will test some H4350 and Re17 to get the pressures up and see what type of speed and accuracy can be delivered.

At 3100+fps, the ballistics equal my 6.5 Mystic/260AI 140gr Berger VLD load with a whole bunch less recoil. If I can get into the 3200's to 3300's, that should match a moderate speed 7mm 180gr set up.

That would be fun.

With this much powder down this bore size, I think I am a good candidate to test this nitride hardening :D

Loving it...

Jerry
 
Tried the 40gr H4831SC load and I must be close cause it wants to shoot. 3 nearly touching but I get a couple out and this time, no fault of wind or shooter. Maybe another tenth or two????

Different velocity reading today.3178, 3163, 3188, 3168, 3190fps I did say that Chronies were only a nice approximation of reality didn't I :p

Tried some H4350 and SWAG a load at 38gr. 3295 and 3292 fps in a decent pairing at 200yds. Pressure signs definitely there.

38.5gr - 3356, 3322fps Way too hot but the speed was fantastic. Big distance between shots. Definitely not a load that is safe for use.

Great part, the bullets made the trip and the holes were round. With a larger case, these speeds would certainly be possible and the LR ballistics would be fantastic.

So I will tweak the H4350 loads down and see if accuracy and speed are there. Might just be the better powder with this set up?????

Would have huge grins if I can get accuracy around 3250fps.

Jerry
 
FWIW, I just received the February issue of Precision Shooting magazine, and it has an interesting article about pushing various .22's rather fast -- using WSSM wildcats.. One was a 40gr that was pushed past 5000fps, and another I recall was a 75gr AMAX pushed ~ 3600fps.

Unfortunately I don't have it handy, and can't provide more details right now, but I'd recommend it.

-- L.
 
Mystciplayer, don't know if anyone or you have ran some numbers in Quickload. But, with 28" barrel, 2.76" OAL range, RL22, N560, and MRP may work well also. RL22 should give about 80 fps. over H4831SC, and N560 100-110.

I have been thinking of a project like this for a year and a half. Taking my 220 Swift and improving it with 40 degree shoulder (AI), 30" 1/7 barrel. Playing with quickload program predicts at 3.0" OAL, RL25, H1000 3500 fps, and N560, N570, Retumbo 3600 fps.
 
pockets said:
Mystciplayer, don't know if anyone or you have ran some numbers in Quickload. But, with 28" barrel, 2.76" OAL range, RL22, N560, and MRP may work well also. RL22 should give about 80 fps. over H4831SC, and N560 100-110.

I have been thinking of a project like this for a year and a half. Taking my 220 Swift and improving it with 40 degree shoulder (AI), 30" 1/7 barrel. Playing with quickload program predicts at 3.0" OAL, RL25, H1000 3500 fps, and N560, N570, Retumbo 3600 fps.
Click to expand...

If you could get 3600fps with a 90grn VLD, AND keep accuracy out to 1000 yards, you will be hanging right there with a 7mm 180VLD going 3100. Read as, this can make an F-open leader. Even at 3400fps you are only at 57" of drift at 1000 yards in a 10mph 3'oclock wind. Damn I like these numbers, now to see if it actually comes to fruition. With such a wide velocity window, hopefully one of the nodes are somewhere in between.:rockOn:
 
And there in lies the problem AND opportunity.

How fast will these 90's go and still be accurate?

I know that 3350fps in my 7 twist, the bullets didn't blow up but the set up was running way too high a pressure to consider further testing. It hink 3200fps with my present set up is likely all the 'sane' speed I can get.

But then I haven't tried Re17 yet :)

A 22/250AI or Swift AI would indeed get the speeds up and over 3300fps BUT will it shoot?

Barrel life may be pretty brief but LR ballistics could be very impressive.

As to the 7mm 180gr for F class, the 'hot' setup now pushes these to around 2900fps which is the most common node for match bullets. Going any faster will require a case too big to be effective in F class and the recoil would be horrendous.

You still got to live through a relay to win.

The 90's at 3200 to 3300fps match the 7mm load above and recoil is of course Zip by comparison. I am really enjoying shooting this load. Just need some more groups to see how this thing shoots.

Jerry
 
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