90gr Berger VLD and the 223 - 500m Group 1 1/16"X 1/8" see post 357

90gr and 2800fps has already been done by several shooters in NA, and around the world. Nothing new. The key is getting it to shoot without any vertical dispersion. That is what we are all trying to tune out.

H4350 is pretty much the slowest powder that will work in this set up and in this barrel, it is a darling. The Re17 is too slow. N550 has been working but I wonder if it is too peaky or temp sensitive.

With a 223, a few tenths change in load WILL drop you out of the accuracy node so you need very precise scales and a powder that can stay in tune over a wide temp range.

I know several shooters are using the N550 but it may not be temp stable enough. If that is true, it will be very difficult to use cause you will need to constantly vary your charge weights to keep the rifle in tune. Could also be why they are seeing vertical over the course of a match.

In Canada, not a big deal to see 15C changes in a day. That is more then 0.2gr of powder change of the non temp stable powder. Way too much.

Jerry
 
Jerry, from my experience and N540 with the 80gr Sierra and Bergers was vertical dispersion at any range. Keeping the ES down is not easy with the .223 case. I was able to obtain 3,065fps with mollied 80gr pills out of my McLennan 8" twist 30" barrel in .223 Ackley with Wylde throat.

I experimented out to 1,000yds and found that slight seating depths and/or plus .2 or minus .2 gr. of powder caused verticals everytime. I was surprised how easy it was to make this case do that and it really showed up on a practice session @ 1000yds with no wind and almost perfect conditions.

As a result, I've moved on to other cases. IMO though I've never tested it, the 22PPC/BR should lower the ES and give better velocity for longer ranges. I really think that would work better with the 90gr VLD.
 
The 223 is definitely a case that needs proper attention to weighing charges. 0.1gr in a 223 case is like 0.3gr in a 308 case. No one would want their loads varying that much.

I have had excellent results in dialing out vertical in the 223 case. Hitting a sub MOA target at 1 mile pretty much teaches you what you need to look for. Primers matter too.

Overall, it has as many good and bad quirks as any other chambering.

So far, the 90gr VLD, 223 and H4350 has been super docile to tune. Got my first node 9 rds into load development. Second on the next batch. If you discount the sighters and obvious high and low loads, this barrel has shown its likes in 30rds. That is pretty good.

Now to test in larger volume to see how things average out. If it continues to pan out, I will punch targets out to 1000yds. I am hoping to see the vertical gone and if so, this would make a truly competitive setup for F TR.

As to F open, the 22BR is definitely a nice cartridge but I want more speed. First stop is the 22/250 and it that goes well, maybe the AI.

No worries for barrel life....

Thanks for the advice and your experience.

Jerry
 
Jerry, et al:

My experience is no where near the mean average for most of the posters in this thread, and I'm hesitant to comment lest I say something embarrassing. That said, I can't help but think that if I were going to pursue pushing a 90gr out to 1k yards/meters, then perhaps .223, .222, .22-250, .22BR etc. are not the way to go. As I read this thread, I couldn't help but flashing back to the Precision Shooting magazine articles I've read over the years that talked about resizing a larger case to fit a smaller caliber bullet. Maybe that's the answer here. What case? I can't say, I don't have the expertise. Maybe someone else here does.

-- L.
 
Interesing thought and wildcatters have been playing with all manner of concepts over the decades.

Whatever cartridge you wish to compete with, you need a steady supply of quality brass that needs limited reworking - just takes too long.

I really doubt anyone is going to come up with a more accurate shape then the 22/6BR in either wider/shorter or longer/thinner format. It has all been done before.

The larger cases like the 22/250 reg. and improved have had decades of useage and their case volume has stayed the test of time because it works for its intended uses. The use of a 90gr Berger VLD is new so we will have to see how much case we need with todays powder to reach the velocity goals.

If my SWAG is correct, the case volume of the reg 22/250 will get the work done BUT the case shape is not ideal due to more stretching then desired. But it is readily available and dirt cheap to set up.

We will have to see what testing yields but I am thinking 38 to 40gr of H4831SC will push these Bergers to 3200fps in my 28" barrel. If it does so with accuracy, then the ideal package for these parameters would be a shorterned and improved 22/250.

Think 22 Dasher with a length of 1.75" - right in between the BR and 22/250. There is no case that is close so going this route would mean a whole lot of work sizing, annealing, turning/reaming.

And the huge cost of custom reamer, dies and failed brass.

The closest potential case is the 6.5X47L and a test rifle by another shooter may be in the works depending on my results.

Jerry
 
Lojak said:
[snip...] pursue pushing a 90gr out to 1k yards/meters, then perhaps .223, .222, .22-250, .22BR etc. are not the way to go. As I read this thread, I couldn't help but flashing back to the Precision Shooting magazine articles I've read over the years that talked about resizing a larger case to fit a smaller caliber bullet.
Click to expand...

Since there are specific classes of competition for .223 ("TR Target Rifle" for iron sight shooting, and "F-TR" for scope shooting), the question becomes ".223, or anything else".

It is important to note that a high performance 90 grain target bullet from a .223 will outperform a high performance 155 grain target bullet from a .308.

It is possible to get even more performance by going to a larger case - the first step up would be a .22 BR, another step up would be a .22-250. While there are even larger .22 cases, the .22-250 is actually pretty big, and is quite a high performance cartridge (including all the warts of a high performance rifle - shorter barrel life, sometime problems with blowing up bullets, etc)

mysticplayer said:
44rds down the McGowen barrel and some repeated test groups so I will say,

1) This bullet is very easy to set up
2) The McGowen barrel SHOOTS

***THIS LOAD DATA WILL NOT WORK IN A STANDARD 223 CHAMBER***
Click to expand...

Why not - is your case larger than standard .223? or is it just a longer throat?

mysticplayer said:
The chamber is SAAMI. The throat is longer and similar to a Wylde or NATO. As far as I know, the rules do not dictate throat length otherwise, there will be a whole bunch of defunct 308's in service.

The rule is to ensure the case volume is controlled.

Think of a long throat as a well worn barrel....

Jerry
Click to expand...

Agreed. Case volume is important to control for competitive advantage reasons. Neck diameter can lead to safety problems if a shooter is less than 100% knowledgeable. Throat length ought to be pretty free and easy.

FWIW when I loaned my JGS .223 Wylde reamer to a friend, he remarked that it seemed to have quite a short throat. I should really look up a print for it. Or I suppose I could just ask Bill Wylde (he is a Canadian Gunnutz member, and he posts here from time to time)

mysticplayer said:
90gr and 2800fps has already been done by several shooters in NA, and around the world. Nothing new. The key is getting it to shoot without any vertical dispersion. That is what we are all trying to tune out.
Click to expand...

Amen to that. We need to get tight verticals at 1000yards (or more). So far I know of only one shooter who has reported this (Jerry Tierney said he was getting 1/2 MOA vertical at 1000). The more success reports we get, the more 90s can move out of the "lab" and into the shooter's regular bag of tricks.
 
Daniel, the throat on my rifle is much longer then SAAMI. You can't use my load data cause you can't get that much powder into a case set up for standard throat chamber :)

Dialing out Vertical is the holy grail of my testing. Just need some time to get out to the range. Maybe this weekend.

H4350 has been very linear in its load progression so even if not the fastest speeds, it certainly is an easy powder to get started with.

I wonder if the N550 and even Varget may be causing vertical due to elevated pressures?????

Shooter I know is doing very well with a 22BR. Seems to thrive at 2900+fps with bughole accuracy. maybe the bullet is just going a bit too slow in a 223?????

More questions then answers at this time but I am excited about how things have started.

28", 7 twist barrel is what I have right now so easily duplicated and I have found 28" to pretty much max out useable speed from the 223 case.

Now to test, and retest, then test further out, then retest further out to prove consistency and repeatability. got a few hero groups but that does not a match rifle make.

Will keep posting data.

Jerry
 
Was just getting out my Wylde chambered .223 and loading up some ammo for this weekend. Yes a longer throat will be needed for a 90gr pill. The Wylde throat is too short for it. Here's your chance to make it a .223 Mysticplayer chamber if it ain't been done already.

I too have designed my own .260 Ackley back in 1998 similar to yours, but that is another story for another thread some day.
 
The last thing I want is to call it something other then a 223 Rem. Afterall, this is a SAMMI chambered class and any other stamped barrel is going to get some negative examination.

Eventually, ALL 223 barrels will have the same throat as mine does now :)

Love to hear about your 6.5 someday. They sure do work well.

Jerry
 
kind of a bummer morning. Put the H4350 loads over the chronie and they are slow.

2650 to 2700fps is the speed ranges of my best loads. Accuracy is great but no zip.

Was wondering why the brass didn't need as much sizing. Pressure just isn't there.

too slow in this rifle.

Back to the drawing board with VARGET. That'll get things rolling along or not :)

Jerry
 
Some test results from 6mmbr on 223rem

Hi Jerry this may be of help for your quest of powders to get the 90gr Bergers
up to the 2800+
Quite a few fellows testing now in Ottawa area some with Hart 1/7, Krieger1/7.7 ,True-flyte1/7 and factor 1/7 Savages some amazing groups at 300y speeds up to 2850 with no pressure signs. Some are using VT 550, Rl15, H414.and soon to try RL17. Varget wont get speed up enough with 90gr Bergers.

LR 223 bolt rifle barrel length.


The loads listed below were shot in a single shot Barnard action all were below the highest loads tested.
May NOT be suitable for other bolt rifles or AR type rifles.


This section of the test is comparing barrel length / MV.




LATEST UPDATE ----------- August 24, 2009

Testing the 223 Palma rifle

NEW RIFLE
Barnard Action 223 Palma Rifle completed on May 5, 2009
Krieger barrel 32” 7.7 Twist. Same chamber as Flaharty’s rifle.
The fired brass from Dennis’ rifle will chamber in the Barnard.

Winchester brass Neck sizes: fired is .249”, sized is .245” and loaded is .246”.
Case max. L= 1.760”, Trim to 1.750”

Bullet OAL to touch the lands:
Sierra 80 grains = 2.557”
Berger 80 VLDS = 2.503”
Berger 82 BTs = 2.515”– New Lot = 2.519”
JLK 80 VLDS = 2.540”
Berger 90 VLD = 2.624
Berger 90 BTs = 2.579”
Nosler 80 BTs = 2.536”
JLK 90 VLDS = 2.607”
Hornady 80 Amax = 2.564”

UON: all primers are cci-br4s











Three Lots of RL15 ---- BARREL AT 32”
August 3, 2009 Sacramento 100 yard chronograph – 63 degrees – 62% humidity
Bullet --- Powder-lot --- Charge --- MV ---- ES --- SD --- Primer --- Group size --- Comments
S80 ---- RL15-13X ------ 25.0 ------ 2986 ---- 13 --- 05 -----CCIBR --- 0.387” ------- jump 20 8/03/09
S80 ---- RL15-13X ------ 25.5 ------ 3033 ---- 21 --- 09 -----CCIBR --- 0.497” ------- jump 20 8/03/09
S80 ---- RL15-13X ------ 25.0 ------ 2980 ---- 37 --- 15 -----F205M --- 0.537” ------- jump 20 8/03/09
S80 ---- RL15-13X ------ 25.5 ------ 3028 ---- 09 --- 03 -----F205M --- 0.356” ------- jump 20 8/03/09
S80 ---- RL15-27X ------ 25.0 ------ 3002 ---- 27 --- 09 -----CCIBR --- 0.230” ------- jump 20 8/03/09
S80 ---- RL15-27X ------ 25.5 ------ 3044 ---- 17 --- 06 -----CCIBR --- 0.591” ------- jump 20 8/03/09
S80 ---- RL15-27X ------ 25.0 ------ 2999 ---- 15 --- 06 -----F205M --- 0.479” ------- jump 20 8/03/09
S80 ---- RL15-27X ------ 25.5 ------ 3040 ---- 35 --- 15 -----F205M --- 0.701” ------- jump 20 8/03/09
S80 ---- RL15-27Y ------ 25.0 ------ 2988 ---- 22 --- 09 -----CCIBR --- 0.812” ------- jump 20 8/03/09
S80 ---- RL15-27Y ------ 25.5 ------ 3028 ---- 13 --- 05 -----CCIBR --- 0.302” ------- jump 20 8/03/09
S80 ---- RL15-27Y ------ 25.0 ------ 2973 ---- 28 --- 11 -----F205M --- 0.740” ------- jump 20 8/03/09
S80 ---- RL15-27Y ------ 25.5 ------ 3023 ---- 30 --- 11 -----F205M --- 0.379” ------- jump 20 8/03/09
H80 ---- RL15-13X ------ 25.3 ------ 3015 ---- 18 --- 08 -----F205M --- 0.544” ------- jump 20 8/03/09
B90VLD -N550----------- 25.5 ------ 2850 ---- 48 --- 19 ------------------ 0.561” ------- in 10 6/15/09
B90BT ---N550----------- 25.5 ------ 2825 ---- 21 --- 07 ------------------ 0.504” ------- jump 20 6/15/09
B82 ------ N550----------- 26.0 ------ 2963 ---- 40 --- 15 ------------------ 0.352” ------- jump 20 6/15/09
S80 ------ N150----------- 25.6 ------ 2971 ---- 26 --- 10 ------------------ 0.518” ------- jump 20 7/20/09
S80 -----Varget ----------- 25.6 ------ 3022 ---- 27 --- 10 ------------------ 0.675” ------- jump .010” 5/15/09
B80 ---- Varget ----------- 25.5 ------ 3024 ---- 32 --- 12 ------------------ 0.351” ------- IN .010” 5/08/09










Barrel Cut to 30”
August 21, 2009 Sacramento 100 yard chronograph – 70 degrees – 48% humidity
Bullet --- Powder-lot --- Charge --- MV ---- ES --- SD --- Primer --- Group size --- Comments
S80 ---- RL15-13X ------ 25.0 ------ 2973 ---- 41 --- 16 -----CCIBR --- 0.216” ------- jump 20 8/21/09
S80 ---- RL15-13X ------ 25.5 ------ 3022 ---- 25 --- 09 -----CCIBR --- 0.541” ------- jump 20 8/21/09
S80 ---- RL15-13X ------ 25.0 ------ 2971 ---- 25 --- 10 -----F205M --- 0.735” ------- jump 20 8/21/09
S80 ---- RL15-13X ------ 25.5 ------ 3025 ---- 29 --- 12 -----F205M --- 0.768” ------- jump 20 8/21/09
S80 ---- RL15-27X ------ 25.0 ------ 2976 ---- 25 --- 10 -----CCIBR --- 0.580” ------- jump 20 8/21/09
S80 ---- RL15-27X ------ 25.5 ------ 3034 ---- 22 --- 09 -----CCIBR --- 0.640” ------- jump 20 8/21/09
S80 ---- RL15-27X ------ 25.0 ------ 2975 ---- 13 --- 05 -----F205M --- 0.467” ------- jump 20 8/21/09
S80 ---- RL15-27X ------ 25.5 ------ 3033 ---- 16 --- 06 -----F205M --- 0.558” ------- jump 20 8/21/09
S80 ---- RL15-27Y ------ 25.0 ------ 2984 ---- 17 --- 06 -----CCIBR --- 0.628” ------- jump 20 8/21/09
S80 ---- RL15-27Y ------ 25.5 ------ 3033 ---- 24 --- 10 -----CCIBR --- 0.623” ------- jump 20 8/21/09
S80 ---- RL15-27Y ------ 25.0 ------ 2969 ---- 16 --- 06 -----F205M --- 0.809” ------- jump 20 8/21/09
S80 ---- RL15-27Y ------ 25.5 ------ 3021 ---- 25 --- 10 -----F205M --- 0.491” ------- jump 20 8/21/09
H80 ---- RL15-13X ------ 25.3 ------ 3013 ---- 28 --- 11 -----F205M --- 0.341” ------- jump 20 8/21/09
B90VLD--- -N550 ------- 25.5 ------ 2837 ---- 27 --- 09 ----------------- 0.431” ------- in .010 8/21/09
B90BT ------N550 ------- 25.5 ------ 2853 ---- 26 --- 10 ----------------- 0.461” ------- jump 20 8/21/09
B82 --------- N550 ------- 25.5 ------ 2958 ---- 19 --- 09 ----------------- 0.394” ------- jump 20 8/21/09
S80 --------- N150 ------- 25.6 ------ 3011 ----- 14 --- 06 ---------------- 0.706” ------- jump 20 8/21/09
S80 --------Varget ------- 25.6 ------ 3039 ----- 18 --- 07 ---------------- 0.431” ------- jump .010” 8/21/09
B80 ------- Varget ------- 25.5 ------ 3042 ----- 21 --- 10 ---------------- 0.425” ------- in .010 “8/21/09

Barrel Cut to 28”
August 24, 2009 Sacramento 100 yard chronograph – 69 degrees – 48% humidity
Bullet --- Powder-lot --- Charge --- MV ---- ES --- SD --- Primer --- Group size --- Comments
S80 ---- RL15-13X ------ 25.0 ------ 2936 ---- 08 --- 03 -----CCIBR --- 0.362” ------- jump 20 8/24/09
S80 ---- RL15-13X ------ 25.5 ------ 2993 ---- 26 --- 10 -----CCIBR --- 0.447” ------- jump 20 8/24/09
S80 ---- RL15-13X ------ 25.0 ------ 2941 ---- 37 --- 15 -----F205M --- 0.424” ------- jump 20 8/24/09
S80 ---- RL15-13X ------ 25.5 ------ 2994 ---- 24 --- 09 -----F205M --- 0.638” ------- jump 20 8/24/09
S80 ---- RL15-27X ------ 25.0 ------ 2944 ---- 17 --- 07 -----CCIBR --- 0.590” ------- jump 20 8/24/09
S80 ---- RL15-27X ------ 25.5 ------ 3016 ---- 34 --- 13 -----CCIBR --- 0.896” ------- jump 20 8/24/09
S80 ---- RL15-27X ------ 25.0 ------ 2965 ---- 37 --- 16 -----F205M --- 0.532” ------- jump 20 8/24/09
S80 ---- RL15-27X ------ 25.5 ------ 3004 ---- 16 --- 06 -----F205M --- 0.582” ------- jump 20 8/24/09
S80 ---- RL15-27Y ------ 25.0 ------ 2960 ---- 33 --- 11 -----CCIBR --- 0.520” ------- jump 20 8/24/09
S80 ---- RL15-27Y ------ 25.5 ------ 3021 ---- 38 --- 14 -----CCIBR --- 0.513” ------- jump 20 8/24/09
S80 ---- RL15-27Y ------ 25.0 ------ 2954 ---- 44 --- 17 -----F205M --- 0.285” ------- jump 20 8/24/09
S80 ---- RL15-27Y ------ 25.5 ------ 3012 ---- 43 --- 19 -----F205M --- 0.518” ------- jump 20 8/24/09
H80 ---- RL15-13X ------ 25.3 ------ 2985 ---- 38 --- 14 -----F205M --- 0.330” ------- jump 20 8/24/09
B90VLD--- -N550 ------- 25.5 ------ 2806 ---- 07 --- 02 ----------------- 0.480” ------- in .010 8/24/09
B90BT ------N550 ------- 25.5 ------ 2805 ---- 32 --- 13 ----------------- 0.473” ------- jump 20 8/24/09
B82 --------- N550 ------- 25.5 ------ 2934 ---- 59 --- 09 ----------------- 0.514” ------- jump 20 8/24/09
S80 --------- N150 ------- 25.6 ------ 2989 ----- 12 --- 23 ---------------- 0.579” ------- jump 20 8/24/09
S80 --------Varget ------- 25.6 ------ 3021 ----- 34 --- 05 ---------------- 0.466” ------- jump .010” 8/24/09
B80 ------- Varget ------- 25.5 ------ 3018 ----- 26 --- 10 ---------------- 0.397” ------- in .010 “8/24/09


Summary after cutting barrel from 32” to 30” and to 28”
19 five shot groups for each length.

MV average
32” --------- 30” ---------28”
2989 ------- 2983 ------- 2963

ES average
32” --------- 30” ---------28”
25 ---------- 23 ---------- 30

Group size average
32” --------- 30” ---------28”
0.539” ----- 0.501” ----- 0.502”

The first 60 shots of the three RL-15 lots.
AVERAGE OF 60 SHOTS BY LOT NUMBER – RL15
LOT -------- MV --- ES --- GROUP
95013X --- 2990 --- 25 ---- 0.492”
95027X --- 3003 --- 23 ---- 0.568”
95027Y --- 2997 --- 28 ---- 0.552”

AVERAGE OF 90 SHOTS BY EACH PRIMER – RL15
PRIMER --- MV --- ES --- GROUP
CCIBR ---- 2996 --- 25 ---- 0.516”
F205M ---- 2995 --- 27 ---- 0.556”
 
Hey Jerry,

Why not the 6mm Dasher?

What you are doing is good ballisticly, but the Dasher is certainly in the hunt.
I can't see a hot 22 matching the Dasher in the accuracy department.

Just curious what your thoughts are in this comparison.

Keep up the good work!
 
Manitou, Thanks for the info. Great stuff. Since I have it, I wil give Varget a whirl. Odds are pressures will rear up before speed gets too high but what the heck.

Then the quest for Re15 begins. I am guessing that Re17 will be too slow as it is slower then H4350 and I cannot get any more powder into my case.

With the amount of powder I was using, I would have expected more speed.

My OAL with the 90gr Berger VLD's is 2.60" so very similar to yours. Kind of funny to see a 223 that is almost as long as a reg 308.

How is the Vertical in these loads? Looks like the groups were just below the 1/2 min range for the 90gr VLD's

Jerry
 
X-fan said:
Hey Jerry,

Why not the 6mm Dasher?

What you are doing is good ballisticly, but the Dasher is certainly in the hunt.
I can't see a hot 22 matching the Dasher in the accuracy department.

Just curious what your thoughts are in this comparison.

Keep up the good work!
Click to expand...

This testing is specifically for F class. The use of the 90gr VLD in a 223 at 2800fps makes it a 'better' ballistic option then the 308 loads commonly used and you get no recoil as a bonus.

I will eventually use a 22/250 to push these 90's as hard as possible. The goal is to equal the big 6.5's and 7mm with way less recoil.

Although the 6 Dasher is a wonderful cartridge, it gives up quite a bit in wind drift to the bigger 6.5's and 7's.

In the LR F class game, an inch or two means a dropped point. As long as the rifle maintains 1/2 min mechanical accuracy no matter how hot it gets, it is plenty accurate for this game.

For me, F class is all about beating the wind and letting technology make up for my less then stellar reading skills.

More tests to follow.

Jerry
 
X-fan said:
Hey Jerry,

Why not the 6mm Dasher?

What you are doing is good ballisticly, but the Dasher is certainly in the hunt.
I can't see a hot 22 matching the Dasher in the accuracy department.

Just curious what your thoughts are in this comparison.

Keep up the good work!
Click to expand...

You have to compare apples to apples. 6mm improved case vs. 22 improved case, the 90grn .224 beats it. Do the calculations for 22 dasher, 22-243mdstd, 22-250AI, 22x47 etc.. The only thing that beats them is the 6.5mm over 140grn and all the 7mm VLD's.
 
Actually a 90gr VLD at 3200fps will equal the common 140gr VLD at 2900+fps and the 180gr 7mm at 2800fps.

Of course, you can push the 6.5 and 7mm faster but recoil and barrel heat/wear become issues.

The appeal of great ballistics and low recoil is why I am experimenting with this setup.

But first the 223 needs to have a case full of Varget.
Jerry
 
Sorry, should have read the posts more carefully.

I thought we were talking 90 grains at 2800....3200fps is a different picture.
 
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