Any interest in a reproduction 19th Century Canadian Red Ensign?

GrantR

GrantR

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Figure this may be the best CGN forum to post this in, being the home for "the lovers of the old ways" .....

I am in the process of getting quotes to have a custom flag made which will be a facsimile of the type of "Canadian Red Ensign" normally made and flown from about the mid-1870's through to the late 1890's. I think it will be a nice bit of kit for my military re-enactment activities (which concentrate on that period) and also for use at Cowboy Action shoots.

I am posting (here and elsewhere) to ask whether anyone else - clubs, individuals, or whatever - might also want such a flag for their use. To keep costs reasonable, as well as in the interests of both convenience of use and durability, the flag would be of "modern" printed nylon or polyester construction - i.e. not the sewn cloth type which would actually have been made back then. (It is still possible to have such flags made, but of course the cost skyrockets!)

A bit of historical background ......

In 1868 a Red Ensign was adopted by Canada - not as an official "national flag", per se (..... in fact, the Union Jack remained Canada's "official" flag until well into the 20th Century .....) but rather as a sort of unofficial flag to emphasize Canadian nationhood, as distinct from simply being one of many components of the British Empire. As a result, this red ensign was frequently flown on government buildings and elsewhere. The form adopted in 1868 incorporated a shield which displayed the Coats of Arms (at that time) of the four original Provinces in Confederation - i.e. Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec and Ontario, and in its simplest form looked like this -
ca-1868.gif


The legislation authorizing the above design was never changed until the first version of the Red Ensign most of us are familiar with was adopted a few years after the Great War, so this 1868 version remained the authorized Red Ensign until 1922 ...... notwithstanding the entry of new Provinces into Confederation, starting with Manitoba in 1870, until there were nine Provinces when Alberta and Saskatchewan were established in 1905.

However, In actual practice, flag-makers usually incorporated their own revisions to the shield by adding new Arms as Provinces joined Confederation. As a result, after 1873 the Red Ensign actually flown usually looked like this - i.e. including Arms for Manitoba, Prince Edward Island and British Columbia. This is one of the fancier versions, with the shield surmounted by the Imperial crown, a gold beaver below the shield, and a wreath of gold maple leaves surrounding the whole works. Sometimes the shield and other devices were even centered in a white circle .....
1873redensignCanada_crownandwreath.jpg

However, all that embellishment makes the flag much too "busy looking" in my view - and simpler forms incorporating only the shield, or a crown-topped shield, were made.

My preference is for a facsimile of one of the simpler forms which were made back then. I am particularly partial to the crown-topped shield, without more, like this:
1873RedEnsignCanada_sm.jpg

(This is actually a small-scale version of the artwork I have produced for this project. Proportions have been changed from 1:2 to the 3:5 sizing most flag-makers now utilize .... to avoid "extra charges".)

Anyway ..... back to my question - would anyone like to get such a flag?

I can get a "one-off" custom flag made for my own use for about CDN$110, but it seems the cost per unit goes down if more copies are ordered. I seem to be having a hard time getting specific price information on multiple copies of the flag, so far. When I asked about that with the outfit which had quoted CDN$110 for a single flag, they just responded that two made to the same design would be US$75 each (not sure why they switched currencies in mid-stream.) I now have to go back to them to ask about unit pricing for greater quantities (i.e. 5 flags, 10 flags, or more). I am also going to make inquiries with some US-based custom flag-makers, who have information on their websites indicating a sliding price scale as greater numbers of a particular flag are ordered.

I should mention that a modern-made flag (of the official1868 design shown first above) is currently available from "Dominion Regalia" here in Canada .... but their price is CDN$215 per flag, plus shipping!
 
You should post this on MILSURP as well; lots of guys there who I am sure would want one but never come here.

My grandfather immigrated from Scotland in 1913, joined 54th B'n (The Kootenay Regiment) and spent the next 4-off years overseas. He carried one of these under his jacket the whole time. When he died, I asked my grandmother about his flag and she said, "Oh, you wouldn't want that old thing; it was all full of bulletholes and blood and all ate up by gas. I burned it."

That was 46 years ago and I still can't believe it.
 
Update:

Despite my own personal preference for the "plain" version of the old ensign (influenced no doubt by growing up with the very basic 1922 and then 1957 flags) after doing more research I am now coming around to the idea that the more complicated version of the seven-province design would actually be most representative of the era in which it was flown ....

One of the leading experts on the history of Canadian flags, Alistair B. Fraser, indicates quite strongly (in his book "The Flags of Canada") that throughout the entire period when the "seven province shield " was being used on these flags, all of the embellishments (crown, wreath, beaver and white roundel) were almost universally incorporated into the ensigns made by all manufacturers.

Some relevant quotes:
"By late 1874, the devices for British Columbia and Prince Edward Island had been added to those of the other five provinces. The resulting seven-province shield was, by itself, a marvel of quasi-heraldic clutter, but with the addition of a wreath and crown, it became a dog's breakfast of devices. Not content to leave it alone at that, the designers added a beaver to the base of the wreath. The composite was in the best tradition of Canadian compromise: a little something for everyone ....."
- - - - -
"The seven-province Red Ensign was flown enthusiastically and in great numbers across the country for a third of a century. It spoke of Canada, all of its provinces, and its relation to the empire. It was flown on ships, hotels, mine works, stores, manufacturing plants, and private homes. Many pictures survive showing it flying over the Victoria Tower of the pre-1916 parliament buildings."
- - - - -
"Usually the seven-province ensign is easily recognizable in pictures of the time by its familiar white roundel even when details of the badge are indecipherable. The white roundel was rarely used for earlier ensigns, never for later ones, and of all the seven-province ensigns the author has seen, only one early example did not place the badge on a white roundel."
Click to expand...

Accordingly, even though my personal taste urges me to keep it simple, in order for this facsimile to be truly "period correct", it would seem that it should indeed incorporate the full "dog's breakfast", all displayed on a white roundel!

I have revised the Manitoba component (which originally showed a running buffalo) and the B.C. crest (by opening up the wreath a bit) to make my shield more closely resemble the majority of originals I have seen in pictures, and found a better crown - i.e. more "Victorian-looking". With a late 19th Century image of a beaver (adapted from a patriotic table platter, of all things) and an added wreath of maple leaves, the crest on a white roundel now looks like this ...... (click thumbnail images to enlarge) ......



The full ensign would accordingly look like this -



Smellie: your comments about your grandfather carrying an ensign during WWI are Interesting. Even though after about 1907 manufacturers began producing "nine-province" ensigns (i.e. with elements added for Saskatchewan and Alberta, once they had both been granted a Coat of Arms) I gather that the most commonly seen versions still had the "seven-province" shield, either because some makers didn't bother to change their design, or simply because so many people already had the earlier version. So, odds are it was this version he carried .....

I recently remembered that an original May 1915 issue I have of "The War Illustrated" magazine (British) features the first of a series of "Young Lions of the Old Empire" cover illustrations .... in this case a rather odd illustration of what purports to be a Canadian soldier. It features a seven-province shield and, based on its overall appearance, I'd say it was heavily influenced by "file images" from the Boer War! (For one thing, the crown surmounting the shield is a decidedly the "Queen's crown" used in the latter part of Victoria's reign ..... and she died in early 1901 .... The artist was pretty 'loose' with the rifle, too - definitely not a Ross, and the bayonet looks a lot more like a P'1888 that the longer P'07 used on the SMLE ....)





The detail on the shield is admittedly pretty poor, but the New Brunswick component is missing its St. George's cross and seems to feature a sinking ship! :rolleyes:
 
Yes, that is a much later design than I want to have made, and is readily available in Canada at very modest cost. I have at least tow of them myself, and paid about that for them, or maybe $20 or so at most.

However, the design I want to do dates back a half century earlier than the 1922-1957 ensign, and has never been reproduced to my knowledge. It will be a custom printing using my artwork and, depending on interest, there may be only ten or so flags made in the run. Thus cost will necessarily be a far cry from something that is made up in quantities of hundreds or thousands.
 
Comments

I've got a couple of friends who don't subscibe to GN so I'm putting their comments up for them.
"If you could let this guy know, I would like one flag, I’d appreciate it. I am going to let a couple of the guys know about this and if they are interested, to get back to me. That’s a good posting. Thanks TG"

The other fella says..."How far along is the guy in getting these done? I have the flag my grandfather flew from his tent in ww1.which may help him decide on final design. Not too keen on the style of crown - too much like modern Queen's crown. Should be more squared at top for a true victorian era crown.
I would be interested in one - depending on final design, size and price.
I can't get into site as not a member. Could you forward the attachments to him?. "
Anything you want passed on just let me know. Good luck.

Japes
 
I'm in for one in the 50$ range.
My Gramps was at Vimy and got hit twice for his efforts. Last hit was on a pump rail car while being evacuated.
This flag may be a bit before his time, but it's closer to the Canada that him and I love, than the one I'm living in now.
 
Update

Based on feedback from various individuals, and consultation with Alistair Fraser who wrote the history on Canadian flags, I had pretty much decided that the facsimile of the 1873 Red Ensign would feature the full "dog's breakfast" emblem (i.e. the seven-province shield surmounted by a crown and surrounded by a wreath with a beaver at the base, all on a white ground) - mainly because Dr. Fraser's studies showed that this was by far the most common format for the ensigns produced by all flag-makers of the period. (In fact, he indicated he has only seen one seven-province flag without the white ground, ever ....)

However, if one studies actual original ensigns, what stands out is that the emblems were, for the most part, relatively crudely rendered - downright "amateurish" in many cases. In most cases, the wreath surrounding the shield was composed of maple leaves on the left side and oak leaves on the right, rather than being all maple leaves. (In many instances, these are so crudely rendered that it is difficult to tell what they are supposed to be!) Also, the white background was almost never round, but instead tended to more or less follow the contours of the emblem. Here is a montage of several such emblems I have located, to show what I mean - unfortunately, only the one on the lower right has a seven-province shield -

old%20ensign%20montage_lo%20res.jpg


AS a result, I just wasn't happy with the earlier version I had come up with (i.e. with the very symmetrical wreath of maple leaves on both sides and centered on a circular white background) - it just didn't have enough of a "period look" to my eyes. By the same token, I certainly didn't want my emblem to be overly crude ..... no matter how "historically accurate" that might be ..... so I have adapted an original wreath pattern (from the lower right emblem above) to make it more completely encircle the shield (like it does on most versions) and have also placed the whole works on a contoured white background -

wreatha_01_lo%20res.jpg


With the above emblem, the final version of the ensign would look rather like this -

1873%20ensign_b_final_sm.jpg


Comments?

Who wants one, in 3' x 5' size, at a likely price of about Cdn$55 plus shipping?
 
Grant,

I like this version better than the roundel style one you had going. However I really prefer the one without the white background, like you have on the first page, but meh....i'll take whatever turns out.

The collage of the 6 shields look like they have come from real documents and the Beaver is always a good touch.

I will re-affirm I am in on whatever you end up with. I just want a pre-1922 flag.
 
Just a note that there has been one final revision, made in response to a comment made elsewhere .... which actually touched directly on something which had been vaguely bugging me also ..... namely, that I consider making the shape of the white background a little less like a "hot water bottle" ....

Here is likely what it now looks like - so it has a little bit more of the general rounded appearance of the various original emblem backgrounds. This is what will likely "go to press" -

1873ensign_c_final_sm.jpg
 
Bittermansbro said:
Should not the shield be centered top to bottom so as to be 'balanced'?
Click to expand...

Good question, Sean!

Although admittedly that seems to be the practice nowadays if one looks at the ensign-based flags of other Commonwealth nations, the practice a century or so ago (with Canadian ensigns, at least) definitely seems to have been to position the shield lower - closer to being centered in the lower right quadrant - in an apparent attempt to achieve a "visual balance" with the Union Jack in the upper left quadrant! I was trending toward the latter approach with a view to giving this flag a more "historical" appearance .....

Here are several images of original late-19th Century ensigns to illustrate what I mean -

fraser02.jpg
oldensign05sm.jpg


oldensign03_sm.jpg
pencilflag_sm.jpg


oldensign07sm.jpg


Here are the two positions side-by-side .... I'm going to have to think on this a bit!

1873ensign_shieldpositioncomparison.jpg
 
Based on those images of actual flags and the side by side comparison, I agree with Icebox, let's keep it 'vintage'. Now looking at all that, it does look a little better lower.
 
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