Precision Shooting Reality

Last I heard, three shots were the minimum requirement to form a group. Most people favouring 5 shots per group. I don't see how a sinlge hole in a deer's head proves 1/4 MOA precision. It only proves accuracy, which you are obviousely happy with.

This debate would easily be ended by a photograph of said pie plate with 3 or more holes in it, preferable shot from 800 yards.
 
I am very interested in the original purpose of the thread, and hopefully we can steer away from the current argument and go back towards the original idea. If someone makes a claim that you feel is BS please don't argue with them; fabricating a tall tale is a bit immature, but so is fueling an argument. I am sure that most of us are clever enough to decide for ourselves which claims may be embelished. I appreciate photos of targets and data, but I still have to decide for myself if the information is truthful.

On a calm day from a nice solid shooting bench, with my best rifle (also an ATRS) and handloads I can shoot an average of about 3/8" 5 shot groups at 114yards (why they never placed the target at 100 yards or meters is beyond me). Depending on ammo / rifle quality the group size goes up from there. Because of my obsession with load development it seems that lately I have spent more time bench shooting than field shooting, but I know that last fall I took a few hours to make a drop chart for a .338 Lapua AI on a calm afternoon and I was able to shoot roughly 1 MOA with 5 shot groups out to 400 yards. I also fired a couple shots at an 800 yard rock - later the bullet spatters showed me that I was grouping larger than MOA, but I don't honestly remember how large - maybe 1.5MOA? Shooting offhand, kneeling, sitting, etc. I have no idea what my group sizes would be, but I know they would be awful.

...and as per the last post - I personally give 3 shot groups absolutely no statistical relevance whatsoever. I always shoot 5 shot groups.
 
Thankyou Lloyd...things veered so far off course, I was about to ask to have my handle removed from the OP! Not being a competition or long range shooter, I am not sure what to expect for accuracy much past 300M...but I was pretty certain that anybody claiming much bettter than 1MOA consistency past 600M would need to be in the top 10% of shooters and be using top notch equipment. Since our Range is only 300M, I have to base my expectations on what I can do and what I see others doing at that distance. I see very few targets from the 300M board under 1/2MOA with 3 shot groups. Perhaps the long Range facilities attract a greater percentage of the really competent shooters? One thing I can be sure of, is that if you can't shoot well out to 300M...you won't get better further out.
 
Well, I am just learning but I find consistency the hardest part( I guess that is everyone's problem). 20-25% of my 4 shot groups at 400 yards are under an inch, some well under an inch.It's that other 75-80% that are the problem. Anyways I am working on it and hopefully I can reverse the trend.I have my loads down to both single digit ES and SD .For anyone interested the rifle is a fully custom 7mm SAUM with a 0.315 neck. I had Dave Kiff make the reamer. It is built on a Barnard action, Roberston composites GBF stock( bedded by Ian), Lilja 30 inch barrel,Schmidt and Bender PMII 12-50x56 with 1/8 moa adjustments. I am using a SEB rest and rear bag.The gun was smithed by Joe Kroetsch.
 
I can shoot an average of about 3/8" 5 shot groups at 114yards

If you can make every reload as consistent as possible you should be able to achieve 1/4MOA or better at this distance. For instance, the difference between 3000 fps and 3025 fps is noticeable in 100 yard group size with this cartridge. Any pressure differences will also result in POI differences. At the end of the day it depends what accuracy you are happy with and how much effort you are willing to put into your brass.

Since our Range is only 300M, I have to base my expectations on what I can do and what I see others doing at that distance.

I am fortunate to be able to shoot at 500 to 1000 yards on a regular basis. Adequate magnification and optical clarity comes into play at these distances (especially for my eyes). The 300 gr. .338 SMK performs extremely well in my application.

Cut out the coffee and do your best to reduce your heart rate while shooting.
 
This debate would easily be ended by a photograph of said pie plate with 3 or more holes in it, preferable shot from 800 yards.

Photo Shmoto. I could dazzle you with Photoshop.

I'd rather sit you down beside me while I shoot. If I can't hit the pie plate 3 times from 800 yards you can throw a pie (of my choice) in my face.
 
This debate would easily be ended by a photograph of said pie plate with 3 or more holes in it, preferable shot from 800 yards.
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How did we get from shooting consistent quarter minute groups at all ranges, all day long, to shooting 3 shots in a pie plate at 800 yards.

More like lets see five consecutive, five shot groups of 2" at 800 yards.
 
Toomanyguns said:
This debate would easily be ended by a photograph of said pie plate with 3 or more holes in it, preferable shot from 800 yards.

Photo Shmoto. I could dazzle you with Photoshop.

I'd rather sit you down beside me while I shoot. If I can't hit the pie plate 3 times from 800 yards you can throw a pie (of my choice) in my face.
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I'll take you up on this if you let me throw a pie in your face(your choice of flavour) after you don't shoot 3 seperate quarter minute 5 shot groups at 800m.I'll even time the pieing to your heart rate beeper so that I launch it in between your heart beats.
 
Toomanyguns said:
Shot a young doe in the noggin out past 800 yards with it. Right in the ear hole where I aimed. Next time you are standing over a dead deer measure the ear hole opening.
1/4 MOA long range hunting rifle. Its a beautiful thing. Deadly accurate and deadly.
Just like the mailman poem: neither wind, snow, sleet or rain will prevent me from shooting 1/4 MOA again and again. Even got the illuminated reticle for low light applications.
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This is either utter BS, written by someone who easily forgets the details of some of the best moments of his life, or socially irresponsible.

You took an "ear hole" shot on a deer at an extended range, and don't know the range any better then "past 800 yards".

Was this a Texas ear hole shot BTW? You know the one. The bullet impacts the close ear hole, then continues out the far ear hole without ever damaging the brain.
 
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carbonrod said:
This is either utter BS, written by someone who easily forgets the details of some of the best moments of his life, or socially irresponsible.

You took an "ear hole" shot on a deer at an extended range, and don't know the range any better then "past 800 yards".
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What part is socially irresponsible? The shot, the doe or the earhole aimpoint? Shooting a doe does not qualify as some of "best moments of his life". That goes to family and dogs. Now, if you were to mention stalking a large grizzly, shooting a billy goat with a bow, or the harvest of a fine Dall's sheep or Rocky Mountain Bighorn you'd have my attention. A doe is just meat for the family.
 
Toomanyguns said:
What part is socially irresponsible?
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Taking a shot at a deer that far out without knowing how far out it is. By your own chart, you lose 21 inches between 800 and 850 yards. What is 21 inches in doe's heads? Maybe your life is full of more bouquets then most people I know, but the people that I know have made shots out there remember exactly how far it was. I can get them rip roaring drunk, and they remember. I can make a pass at their sister. Same, they remember. I don't have the best memory on the planet, and think that my life is full of lots of memorable moments, but I would remember the exact distance of a 800yd+ ear hole shot.
 
carbonrod said:
Taking a shot at a deer that far out without knowing how far out it is. By your own chart, you lose 21 inches between 800 and 850 yards. What is 21 inches in doe's head?
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Then it would have been a clean miss. Perfectly acceptable.:)
Thats not my own chart. Thats what gets spit out when You punch in some of the variables into JBM ballistics program. It is a guideline from which to make accurate measurements/adjustments for your rifle/scope/load combination.

I was simply highlighting the calculated energy for a 300 gr. SMK that leaves the barrel at 3015 fps. Pretty impressive smackdown power eh?
 
Toomanyguns said:
Then it would have been a clean miss. Perfectly acceptable.:)
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How do you know it would be a clean miss if you don't know how far away it was in the first place? How did you correct for wind, or a potentially moving deer? Your bullet is in the air for a second.

I think that this sort of comment does a disservice to both the hunting community, and the precision community. Sure there are lots of people that can make these shots safely. I don't know many that would claim the much coveted ear hole shot though, and completely forget the specifics.

Toomanyguns said:
Pretty impressive smackdown power eh?
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Some kind of smak for sure.
 
It was a calm day - dead calm, (pardon the pun) deer was bedded and not moving. Alfalfa does on private land have a habit of not moving much. My cousin was parked about 100 yards away from the doe - just in case:)

This year I am going to parachute out of a plane with some gear and have a few food/gear drops made. I plan on searching for Mr. Big. Will be gone for 3 -4 weeks, solo. One part of the route requires use of a pre-made rope ladder and lowering my gear down into a canyon with ropes. Plan is to hike out to the highway. I'll be using a Kimber 338 Win Mag. We'll keep it under 600 yards. No long shots.
 
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Toomanyguns,

just when people were starting to be convinced you had to go mention the parachute drops. :D Its all in the timing. :)

For what its worth, I believe you and If you require a media consultant my rates are reasonable.
 
Do you have any experience with hunts for Stone's sheep and mountain goat in the BC mountains? I am looking for a couple of world class trophies - solo - unguided.

The method of parachute and pre-determined gear drops is the only way possible in this area. To the best of my knowledge no human has ever hunted the spots.

The only way I'll become famous from it is if I shoot Sasquatch:eek:
 
Guys - I figured out a while back he's punking us all. He's been called on his BS, and he's just upping the ante so he can claim it's all a joke.

Don't feed the troll. Either that or he's a sociopath. I can't quite confirm which.
 
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