Precision Shooting Reality
- Thread starter JEC
- Start date
rnbra-shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Brunswick
Amen. And thank you.
Tell us more about the rifle (caliber, chambering, barrel length, weight, etc), and ammo (bullet, powder, m.v.). Sounds like a fantastic shooting rifle, wow!
On the 600m range we built, as far as I can tell the 600m firing point is within 1m or 2m of being correct. Somehow though our 100m firing point is about 95m from the targets(!).
Ditto. Such a barbaric way to shoot, eh? ;-)
Shooting offhand, I think I can put the majority of my shots inside 10 MOA. And that seems amazing to me, since my "hold" must be at least a 20 MOA wobble.
They don't have literally *no* relevance, it's just that they are quite *noisy*, and they are less relevant than groups fired with more shots. So provided that you correctly interpret a three-shot group (which basically means knowing just how large a grain of salt to take it with), there's nothing intrinsically erroneous about them.
You can also take the average of numerous three-shot groups. The average size of five or ten three-shot groups does start to filter out the noise and give some info. But you might want to consider if there might be a better way to analyze the data that these fifteen (or thirty) shots contain. (for the curious, there is; techniques such as "mean radius" make much better use of the data)
I suppose tall tales are to be expected, but somehow it seems that the BS stories end up devaluing the actual shooting accomplishments of shooters who actually shoot.
For example, board member Cyanide posted a photo of a wonderful 10-shot group that he fired on the ICFRA 300m F-class target, which I thought was truly stunning. IIRC all ten shots were inside the V-bull, which is 0.45 MOA in diameter. And yet this real accomplishment sounds pretty mundane when ranked amongst the BS claims that populate (pollute?) the Internet.
While not quite common as dirt, rifles that honestly shoot 1/2MOA at 300m-600m are quite doable, and not at all rare at major target shooting competitions. But rifles that honestly shoot 1/2 MOA at 900m are truly rare - I think in all my years shooting I've only ever seen that done *once*.
In the mid-90s I used to shoot ORA sniper matches, which were fired on very challenging targets at 400y (1/2 MOA bullseye) 600y (2/3 MOA bullseye) and 800y (1 MOA bullseye). For fun, a playing card was placed in the center of the 800y target, and if you got any hits you were given the card to keep. This was a nice added bit of fun. Each shooter fired two sighters and fifteen on score at 800, so you were firing a total of 17 shots. Most people ended up getting at least one hit. A good shooter might typically get two or three hits out of the seventeen shots. I have a small stack of these cards, I think the most that I ever got was five hits (so that's my best performance, where luck and conditions and everything worked in my favour).
Since a playing card is about 1/4 MOA wide, and I don't recall ever seeing even the very best and very luckiest shooters getting any more than one third of their shots onto this 1/4 MOA target at 800 yards, I have a pretty darn skeptical view of anybody who claims to be grouping 1/4 MOA at 800 yards. No point in calling it BS, but I have have enough confidence in my guesstimate of the reality of it happening, that I would be *MOST* willing to take the other side of a series of monetary bets that would be easily winnable by somebody who actually could routinely shoot 1/4 MOA groups at 800y.
(I admit I am curious why you've chosen 4-shot groups, especially since you're not firing from a Remington with a 4-shot magazine ;-) Nothing wrong with 4-shot groups, it's just nonstandard)
Sounds like you have first-rate gear, which you can fairly expect to be able to deliver 1/2 MOA or better at that range.
Any idea if the bad groups are your fault (wind reading, shooting technique etc) or the equipment's? Can you consistently get 1/2 MOA at 100 (which would suggest your gear is good and your technique is good)? If you're not an experienced shooter, are you able to get somebody who is, so that you can get a good "baseline" of what your gear is capable of and therefore what you know you can realistically strive for?
Cyber sociopath. In real life I'm a 1/4 MOA shot with the hunting skills of a puma. Pretty good golfer also
And last night he stayed at a Holiday Inn!
Remington 700P in 7mm Rem Mag, all original factory parts including 26" barrel, but bedded, tuned, etc. at ATRS plus an ATRS break that takes almost 100% of the recoil away (more of a vibation than a recoil). As for weight - no idea, but heavy, 10-12lbs? And a Nightforce 5.5-22 X 56
-Nosler Custom Brass
-7mm 168gr Sierra Matchkings
-Federal 215M primers I think (possibly BR2 - bad memory)
-IMR 4350 55.00-56.50grains (measured on an Acculab scale which displays accuracy to .02 grains)
~2775fps
Velocities usually all chrono within ~25fps. Of course the more consistent the velocities the better groups I get. Once I produced a group where shots 1,2,3, and 5 were all within 4fps and averaged something like 0.19" at 114 yards which I worked out would have been 0.17" at 100 yards. Shot #4 was quite a bit faster or slower and opened the group much closer towards an inch... if I were a believer in 3 shot groups I would have had an awsome one before the 4th shot. It is fairly common to see 5 shot groups where 4 shots are well sub 1/4MOA but one shot fouls the group for no obvious reason.
I won't give a single 3 shot group any credit at all, but there is nothing wrong with multiple 3 shot groups. But I never saw the point of sooting 5X 3 shot groups when you could shoot 3X 5 shot groups (less targets, less measuring, less math).
Measured the targets... my 400 yard group was 3.78ish", the 200 and 300 yard targets were not as good MOA wise. I think this can be explained by the fact that it was my first, brand new .338, and I was psychologically frightened of the recoil. As I worked my way out to 400 yards and learned that I was not getting beaten up by the rifle I became slightly more accurate. I had not done much load development before those shots, and all the bullets were seated to mag length but ought to be seated out much farther. Bottom line - I am quite sure I can do better with a little more load development and psychological conditioning!
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Thanks jason, nice to be able to filter out a "provocature" who "baits" others.
Toomanyguns- If you want attention, instead of hijacking another member's thread, why not create your own....sorry, won't be able to read your response.
19 Badger by James Calhoun
I like to do 5 shot groups but for a lightweight hunting rifles 3 shot groups are a good enough. Shouldn't need more than 1 if it shoots like this 7mm-08 Rem Mountain Rifle. Looks like more than three but I can't remember.
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I wasn't going to post any more on this thread as gong shows are not very productive. I see that there are a few serious shooters who would like to share their stories so here goes.
In my quest for the ultimate gopher gun I purchased a Custom CZ 527 in James Calhoun's 19 BADGER.
Jim tuned the main trigger to 12 oz and his hand picked Pac Nor Super Match grade barrels are awesome. I topped it with a Leupold VX II 6-18X40 with VLR reticule. This allows me to set the cross hair Zero at 50 yds., +1" a 100 and 150 yds. respectively, and -1" at 225 yds. The first dot is +2" at 250, Zero at 283 yds. and -1 1/2" at 300 yds.The second dot puts me -1" at 350 and -2" at 375 yds. and this puts me at the maximum effective range that this cartridge was designed for.
Load workup was easy as Jim gave me the basic recipe. While I found it virtually impossible to better the first 5 shot factory load, .223", 100yd group in a gusty wind I came close. My first 100 yard group was 3 shots into 0.254" in a gusty wind. It consistently shoots 1/3 MOA five shot groups.
This is a five shot group at 50 yds during load workup just after breaking in barrel.
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This is a target shot with my selected 28 grain Double Hollow Point load while sighting scope at 300 yards. It typically shoots around 1/2 MOA with this load and gophers are barly a challenge. This inspired my 500 yard gopher gun that I featured earlier in this thread.
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I will post pictures and story of my Rem 700V later as time permits.
I like to do 5 shot groups but for a lightweight hunting rifles 3 shot groups are a good enough. Shouldn't need more than 1 if it shoots like this 7mm-08 Rem Mountain Rifle. Looks like more than three but I can't remember.
I wasn't going to post any more on this thread as gong shows are not very productive. I see that there are a few serious shooters who would like to share their stories so here goes.
In my quest for the ultimate gopher gun I purchased a Custom CZ 527 in James Calhoun's 19 BADGER.
Jim tuned the main trigger to 12 oz and his hand picked Pac Nor Super Match grade barrels are awesome. I topped it with a Leupold VX II 6-18X40 with VLR reticule. This allows me to set the cross hair Zero at 50 yds., +1" a 100 and 150 yds. respectively, and -1" at 225 yds. The first dot is +2" at 250, Zero at 283 yds. and -1 1/2" at 300 yds.The second dot puts me -1" at 350 and -2" at 375 yds. and this puts me at the maximum effective range that this cartridge was designed for.
Load workup was easy as Jim gave me the basic recipe. While I found it virtually impossible to better the first 5 shot factory load, .223", 100yd group in a gusty wind I came close. My first 100 yard group was 3 shots into 0.254" in a gusty wind. It consistently shoots 1/3 MOA five shot groups.
This is a five shot group at 50 yds during load workup just after breaking in barrel.
This is a target shot with my selected 28 grain Double Hollow Point load while sighting scope at 300 yards. It typically shoots around 1/2 MOA with this load and gophers are barly a challenge. This inspired my 500 yard gopher gun that I featured earlier in this thread.
I will post pictures and story of my Rem 700V later as time permits.
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For the record, the OP started the thread to call "bulls**t" on shooters who talk better than they shoot.
Read below.
Those of you who are interested in technical posts related to accuracy should start your own thread. Some of you geezers should get out to the mall or Tim Horton's more often and gossip with the rest of the grey haired "know-it-alls".
Read below.
Those of you who are interested in technical posts related to accuracy should start your own thread. Some of you geezers should get out to the mall or Tim Horton's more often and gossip with the rest of the grey haired "know-it-alls".
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- Location
- inside a huge cloud of MOSQUITOS
I was going to pound out a lengthy reply to the above, but instead, see ya later Toomnayguns. I'm done.
I'm all for great groups, but atleast take a pic or something. Toomanyguns, I wish you the best in your shooting career, but I just don't believe you. Not only the outlandish claim, but how much defensiveness was put forward when someone claimed that it may not be true.
I have no shooting career. It's just a plain, simple hobby. Nothing I take very serious. In fact, I am selling my long range rifle because it bores me.
"Let's all go to A&W, experts are at A&W, learn about shootin, reloading too, Lets all go to A&W". (you have to be old enough to know the song in order to sing along)
Not what I meant about career, but if its not for you, who am I to stop you?
bulldog284
CGN Regular
- Location
- pigeon hill
toomanyguns that is the best thing i think you have said from the beging of this post is that you are getting rid of your guns,because you sure as hell bore me with your nonsense and your wild imagination.
You forgot the eyes.
Very nice shooting tiriaq
Thanks.
The rifle is one I made up on a salvaged Remington 78 action, Mike Rock barrel from Andy Webber, .308, Richards Microfit stock, Falcon Menace 4-14 metric 'scope, 155 SMKs, 45 Varget, fl sized Lapua brass. Only real downside is that it is on the heavy side. Can't complain about its shooting though.
Just getting rid of the long range tactical gun. That type of shooting bores me.
Keeping a full lineup of hunting rifles. So much opportunity to hunt many types of species out in BC.
