Precision Shooting Reality

Canuck525 that's a real puzzler. Your very(!) good ES and SD indicates that you have a nice hot, uniform load. Really tight groups at 100 means that you, your scope, your rifle, your ammo, your shooting technique, are all working well. Assuming you are shooting 1/2 MOA at 100 or better on a repeatable basis, there's simply no way you can do that without everything being right. Except in horrid wind conditions, these bullets should be flying through the centre of the target at 400y.

And yet, three quarters of your groups at 400y (which is not very far) are pushing 1 MOA. Something is wrong.

What bullets are you using? Have you only ever used one kind, or have you tried several? What is your muzzle velocity and what is your barrel's twist rate?(just wondering here if you have some weird nearly-failing bullet problem).

Next time you are at 100y, try shooting a group or two using your 400y elevation setting, or even a few MOA more (make sure you have enough paper above your aiming point to capture the bullets). Can you shoot sub-half-MOA, or is it nearly 1 MOA? I only suggest this in case the problem is a weak erector spring, which is snug enough at your 100y setting, but not snug when you've unscrewed the elevation knob to get to your 400y setting. I admit this is a low-probability item.
 
Yeah, I guess it's just the nut behind the wheel as they say. I have improved a lot in the last week and will have a chance to shoot saturday. I will see if the latest improvement is repeatable.
The other thing is this is all rather new to me, my first real custom gun, new rest,bags etc. With my other long range hunting rifles I would only practice at long range when the conditions were very good.Maybe I just need a lot more practice in real conditions and learn how to compensate for wind and mirage.I guess that is a real art in itself.
RNBRA-SHOOTER
Rereading your post I just realized we are not on the same page. I am shooting 20-25% sub 1 inch groups at 400 yards( not 1 MOA). The other 75-80% are as far out as 2.5 and even 3 inches which isn't very good considering the equipment. I suspect an elite level shooter would put just about everything under an inch at 400 with this gun and these loads.I would be very happy if I could keep everything under 1.5 . I am not sure if this is realistic or not( is it?).
 
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Yup. What Oscar said.
In a pinch one can use toilet paper flags.

I looked into the Kestrel and the Nightforce handheld ballistic compooter a few years back. Nothing I wanted to own.
 
Canuck525 said:
RNBRA-SHOOTER
Rereading your post I just realized we are not on the same page. I am shooting 20-25% sub 1 inch groups at 400 yards( not 1 MOA). The other 75-80% are as far out as 2.5 and even 3 inches which isn't very good considering the equipment.
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Actually (I think) we are on the same page. I was referring to your 400y bad groups being nearly 1 MOA (OK 3/4 MOA), which is quite a bit larger than you would expect with the quality of gear you are using.

You never said what size groups you were shooting at 100 but you implied that they were quite good, so I am assuming they are half-minute or less (PM me with specifics if you wish - I won't accuse you of BS'ing ;-). If you are consistently able to shoot just a bit under half a minute at 100y, you would expect to shoot just over half a minute at 400y (now come to think of it, that is just a bit over 2" - so your 2.5-3" groups aren't *that* much larger).

If you are consistently shooting good groups at 100y, then there is nothing wrong with the nut behind the butt. Maybe you don't know how to read wind worth beans; all that will do is to make your long range groups wider than they are tall.

I suspect an elite level shooter would put just about everything under an inch at 400 with this gun and these loads.I would be very happy if I could keep everything under 1.5 . I am not sure if this is realistic or not( is it?).
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An inch at 400y is a quarter minute, which is a very high hurdle (even for 4-shot groups). An elite shooter would be pleased to get this level of performance, and would obviously be trying to, but he if all he could get was 1.5" (which is 3/8 MOA), he would still know that he's probably shooting well enough to win a major match.
 
Previously any time I shot long range and the mirage was bad I just didn't shoot. One thing I have noticed though is that initially for the first few seconds( 2-4) it doesn't look too bad but the longer I look the worse it gets( usually much worse).Not sure if you know the answer to this but; Do most elite shooters pull their eye out of the scope then go back on to fire the shot quickly or is that one of the reasons why many use free recoil?
I was initially trying free recoil but must admit I was getting frustrated.
Come to think of it I think I need to get some books on this as I am sure many of you have been asked these questions a million times.
 
Shooting long range is only interesting when the wind is blowing, otherwise it is just hold and squeeze and everyone is tied for first place. Learning to read the wind seperates the good wind reader/shooter from the young inexperienced hard holders.
 
Indeed Tom! Gets awfully boring just squeezing triggers with no conditions. I start getting excited when the wind picks up, constantly switches it and when it rains.
Anyone who can hold 1/2 MOA when the winds blow you are a better man than me, otherwise we can both plow the field and plop them all dead center and do countbacks to see who won.
 
Canuck525 said:
Previously any time I shot long range and the mirage was bad I just didn't shoot. One thing I have noticed though is that initially for the first few seconds( 2-4) it doesn't look too bad but the longer I look the worse it gets( usually much worse).Not sure if you know the answer to this but; Do most elite shooters pull their eye out of the scope then go back on to fire the shot quickly or is that one of the reasons why many use free recoil?
I was initially trying free recoil but must admit I was getting frustrated.
Come to think of it I think I need to get some books on this as I am sure many of you have been asked these questions a million times.
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Canuck525 are you seeing this happen on dead-calm days with a warm barrel? If so, this is "barrel mirage", which not only greatly distorts the target image but is also shifts its apparent location by half a minute or more. Shooters use mirage bands (flat elastic fabric or even a venetian blind slat laide over the top of the barrel) or mirage tubes (hung from the front of the scope lens) to get a clear and non-shift sight picture. Even a very light wind will blow the barrel mirage away and instantly clear up your sight picture. As a result barrel mirage is only very rarely a problem in outdoor shooting.

You shouldn't have to "hunt and poke" and fight for a good sight picture.

Free recoil is used by some as a means to eliminate any body pressure on the stock causing a shift in point of impact. It is most commonly done in Benchrest, where it is an eminently practical technique with the recoil produced by a 10#+ rifle shooting a 68 grain bullet at 3000++ fps. It is also used in F-Class, but not nearly as widely, because of the relatively greater recoil.

Personally I have never been able to connect any variation in stock pressure by me or by my equipment, with a change in POI. Then again I've never been a topnotch F-Class shooter, nor have I had any amount of time to experiment on a superaccurate rifle.

Books are good, but so is getting involved in any sort of competitive shooting, where you can get more knowledge for free over the course of a few years' weekend participation than you could get from thousands of dollars worth of professionally delivered courses.
 
maynard said:
Shooting long range is only interesting when the wind is blowing, otherwise it is just hold and squeeze and everyone is tied for first place. Learning to read the wind seperates the good wind reader/shooter from the young inexperienced hard holders.
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Ha! At the 2009 Canadian Championships I was a bit miffed when it turned out that the the conditions for the final two ranges of the Governor General's Prize were going to be quite light and easy. The morning's weather had been quite undecided, and it even looked like we might get a bit of a rainy upset (so I brought my raingear and wore my boots ;-), but we ended up sunny with light and fairly steady wind with some light haze. Going into the 800m stage, I figured "the Gov's is going to be won by some arsehole who shoots a pair of 75s".

My self-assessment is that I'm a reasonably decent shooter, but when it comes to straight holding and squeezing I am well aware that I am outclassed by at least a couple of dozen of the shooters on the range. I've always preferred to shoot in moderately challenging or even incredibly hard wind conditions rather than shoot in dead-easy conditions; figured that I'd be more likely to win a match in which a brilliant wind call or two might be able to compensate for an imperfect shot or two.

I was able to shoot a 75 at 800m (in fact it was by far the best I had ever shot at 800m), and then ended up dropping a point at 900m because I JERKED THE SHOT on number 12, which I figured then and there to have cost me the match, giving me a 74 at 900m.

I was right, in that one good shooter did in fact manage to shoot a pair of 75s that afternoon (congrats to Stacey). Yet just to prove that God loves a cruel joke, he wasn't carrying a clean score of 150 forward from the President's match. Lots of 75s shot were shot that day in those easy conditions - at 900m there were seven and at 800m there were fourteen, and there were more Vs than you could shake a stick at.

Meh. You're right, challenging conditions are by far the best way to decide a rifle match.


Now when it comes to testing rifles and ammo it really is nice to sometimes get to do it in absolutely perfect conditions and learn just exactly how well your gear (and you) are able to deliver shots. Even if (getting back to the theme of this whole thread ;-) it isn't actually a quarter minute at 800y if you are telling the truth to yourself.
 
rnbra-shooter said:
Personally I have never been able to connect any variation in stock pressure by me or by my equipment, with a change in POI. Then again I've never been a topnotch F-Class shooter, nor have I had any amount of time to experiment on a superaccurate rifle.
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So that was your excuse back in 1999 and the F-Gang. Aye matey! ;)
BTW, congrats on last years ride in the chair. :)
 
I wasn't able to get out last saturday.It may be another week or 2 before I get a chance to try this thing again. Anyone know who has some RL25 5lb tub is stock( who can ship)?
 
Well, I didn't shoot as well today but not bad either. Here are a few groups I shot at 100 yards, will try 400-500 tomorrow.Here is a pic of my first ever custom precision rifle.
7mm saum 0.315 neck
Robertson composites stock
Barnard P action
Lilja 30 inch barrel
Scmidt and Bender 12-50x56 scope
Near rings
Smithed by Joe Kroetsch and bedded by Ian Robertson

The rest is a SEB and SEB bag.

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Nice looking rig and groups.

Makes me very happy to know that my rig can do similar groups off of a Harris bipod and a homemade denim rear bag.

Nice performance Canuck. Thanks for sharing.
 
Toomanyguns
WOW!! you can shoot 4 shot groups in the 1s and 2s off a bipod?

I must admit I am very impressed . I don't think I will ever be able to do that.
 
Canuck525 said:
I was a top level archer and I used to hear the same thing in archery all the time.However VERY VERY VERY few every master archery.I am just getting into precision rifle shooting but I suspect it is the same.
One thing I have noticed almost immediately that like archery the equipment is probably only about 40-50% of the equation. Mental concentration is mandatory,problem solving,being honest with yourself and hopefully with proper training shooting like a machine.
Ultimately ,Shooting like a machine is one of my primary goals. I am just starting out so I think I may have a long road ahead of me but that is part of the fun.
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I agree, I was competitive with archery for probably 10 years.
I can't tell you how many times I have had guys tell me they purposely spread the group to prevent splitting their arrows. I know carbon fiber arrows are expensive, but in the easy 10's of thousands of releases I had only ever split one arrow, that ##### is still on my wall, lol. Busted the nock off my share, but splitting is very difficult, and I tried with every single shot.

All the techniques for controlled arrow releases follow to shooting, or well I assume. lol.
 
I probably had a 30-40 robinhood shots and literally hundreds of busted nocks.Then I decided it was just getting too expensive and went to 3 spot targets(problem solved).That is why you see all the top shooters use these targets in practice. I was shooting 5-6 days a week 1-2 hours a day( sometimes more) ,so that's a hell of alot of arrows.
 
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